Watchmen Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 So, is there anyone here who can talk about the Windsor market? I think we always thought of them as well down the CPL expansion list - not even the next team up in Ontario. ted, ray, Rheo and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I'm here. Part of a group trying to start up the Supporters Group in Windsor. Bbeto, toontownman, ted and 6 others 6 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I could be wrong, I just don't see the city of Windsor being difficult about Downtown land or having a stadium there. If there's a city that could use a downtown stadium with a pro club, it's Windsor. johnyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) Also, here's my tweet with a list for all the social media links we've got going so far https://twitter.com/WhaleyStatic/status/1480659298841677828?s=20 Edited January 11, 2022 by Rheo dnina10 and ted 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDNFootballer Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Possible venue : Windsor Stadium, needs pretty much a total reno/rebuild : https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/future-in-limbo-after-startling-7m-estimate-to-fix-windsor-stadium ted, dnina10 and johnyb 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 24 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said: Possible venue : Windsor Stadium, needs pretty much a total reno/rebuild : https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/future-in-limbo-after-startling-7m-estimate-to-fix-windsor-stadium One person's sightline-blocking pole is another man's CPL Field of Dreams. narduch, Cheeta, CDNFootballer and 4 others 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer21 Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 2 hours ago, Watchmen said: So, is there anyone here who can talk about the Windsor market? I think we always thought of them as well down the CPL expansion list - not even the next team up in Ontario. I’m pretty surprised we got a team. Windsor TFC has never had a very good following, hopefully the city gets behind this more since it’s a much higher level. I’m a little skeptical, but we do have a lot of immigrants and high levels of participation in youth soccer and men’s rec soccer so if it’s marketed properly, I could see it succeeding. No idea where they’ll put the stadium, Windsor Stadium is the first place to come to mind but it’s an absolute dump so it’d have to be completely scrapped and started from scratch. It would be in an odd spot for a pro stadium too, right next to a high school. Watchmen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, CDNFootballer said: Possible venue : Windsor Stadium, needs pretty much a total reno/rebuild : https://windsorstar.com/news/local-news/future-in-limbo-after-startling-7m-estimate-to-fix-windsor-stadium Think that stadium was used sometimes by the Windsor Wheels back in the 1980s and 90s: https://thecnsl.com/2020/09/22/great-teams-1987-windsor-wheels/ https://thecnsl.com/1985-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1986-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1987-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1988-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1989-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1990-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1992-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1993-2/ and also by the Windsor Stars in the 1970s: https://thecnsl.com/1975-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1976-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1977-2/ https://thecnsl.com/1978-2/ Mic Mac park also used a lot back in the day as well and is still there with natural grass soccer fields that might work for a Halifax style pop-up. https://thecnsl.com/mic-mac-park/ Edited January 11, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot nolando and dnina10 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoccMan Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 8 hours ago, archer21 said: I’m pretty surprised we got a team. Windsor TFC has never had a very good following, hopefully the city gets behind this more since it’s a much higher level. I’m a little skeptical, but we do have a lot of immigrants and high levels of participation in youth soccer and men’s rec soccer so if it’s marketed properly, I could see it succeeding. No idea where they’ll put the stadium, Windsor Stadium is the first place to come to mind but it’s an absolute dump so it’d have to be completely scrapped and started from scratch. It would be in an odd spot for a pro stadium too, right next to a high school. Well Windsor TFC has been a joke since year 1 usually always at the bottom of the league . I wonder what kind of support TFC gives that team financially and even wonder if the best young players in that area are on that team. Moreover, the vast majority of teams in League 1 Ontario barely get friends and family to go watch never mind the general public . So can’t go by the following Windsor TFC get to gauge interest in a future CPL team. Moreover, don’t even know the purpose of TFC putting their name to a team that results wise in Windsor is doing more harm to their brand than anything . Either TFC runs this team seriously in Windsor or just get out it makes no sense . ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 It takes 4 hours or so to drive from Windsor to TO so highly doubtful that the L1O team will be able to attract all the best local players given what away games do to their weekend. That was always a big problem for London City even with a 2 hour drive involved. johnyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archer21 Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 3 minutes ago, SoccMan said: Well Windsor TFC has been a joke since year 1 usually always at the bottom of the league . I wonder what kind of support TFC gives that team financially and even wonder if the best young players in that area are on that team. Moreover, the vast majority of teams in League 1 Ontario barely get friends and family to go watch never mind the general public . So can’t go by the following Windsor TFC get to gauge interest in a future CPL team. Moreover, don’t even know the purpose of TFC putting their name to a team that results wise in Windsor is doing more harm to their brand than anything . Either TFC runs this team seriously in Windsor or just get out it makes no sense . Yeah, the problems started before they became Windsor TFC, but it sure doesn’t seem like things are improving now that they are affiliated. I remember going to some games at Windsor Stadium when they were the “Windsor Border Stars” in the mid 2000s. They were reasonably successful (on the field) then in the CPSL and the CSL but didn’t really have a great following and had financial problems so they lost the team. They got the team back a few years later as the Windsor Stars but I don’t think they were very competitive and honestly never heard anyone I know going to see the games. Seems to have only gotten worse since they entered L1O as WinTFC. I know they’re becoming more and more involved at the youth levels in Windsor, so maybe that will pay dividends for then in the future, by training better players and progressing them into the L1O side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 I'm curious who the other owners will be. Even assuming he negotiated a free (or cheap) expansion team as part of his compensation package as commissioner, I don't think Clanachan has the finances necessary to get a team off the ground. johnyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheo Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 Local article with a few different quotes https://windsorstar.com/news/windsor-native-clanachan-believes-area-is-a-perfect-spot-for-cpl-expansion-soccer-team johnyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 17 minutes ago, Kingston said: I'm curious who the other owners will be. Even assuming he negotiated a free (or cheap) expansion team as part of his compensation package as commissioner, I don't think Clanachan has the finances necessary to get a team off the ground. That would be my expectation as well. However, to undertake such a venture he surely must have lined up some pretty solid partners. I don't see Clanachan leaving the CPL on just the hope he can put something together in Windsor - not when he has seen how hard it is to put together a ownership group for a single team in Quebec. johnyb and MtlMario 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) The opposing line of reasoning would be that it provides him with a face saving exit. The Saskatchewan group that received provisional rights was named in the initial press release as Living Sky Sports & Entertainment: https://canpl.ca/article/canadian-premier-league-announces-expansion-in-saskatchewan David Clanachan has equal billing with them so far and it's worth noting that he is quoted in the Windsor Star as follows: https://windsorstar.com/news/windsor-native-clanachan-believes-area-is-a-perfect-spot-for-cpl-expansion-soccer-team ...I’d always said that I wanted to, if I had the opportunity to somehow explore my own team and had my druthers, it would be in Windsor and Essex County,” Clanchan said. “I believe in that part of the province. A lot of of people have a lot to say, but they’ve never been there... No idea how much money a top Tim Hortons exec would earn but maybe he's received a few hefty bonuses over the years. Like a lot of what has happened with CanPL previously his rhetoric on crowds seems over the top to me: ...“I think (Windsor and Essex County) is the right fit,” Clanachan said of the league, which plays in CONCACAF (Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football) and against MLS squads for the Canadian Championship. “I want to see 5,000 to 6,000 fans. Think (Windsor) Spitfires and we want to be at that level and grown then to 7,500 or 8,000 and top out at 10,000 to 12,000... Divide those numbers by two all the way through and do the Spitfires comparison part at the end and the quote would be more sensible and less likely to result in mouthfuls of coffee being sprayed over monitors when readers get to that part. Edited January 11, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said: No idea how much money a top Tim Hortons exec would earn but maybe he's received a few hefty bonuses over the years. Like a lot of what has happened with CanPL previously his rhetoric on crowds seems over the top to me: The internet, which never lies, estimates his net worth at $5 million. Even if that has wide error bars, it doesn't put him in a position to be the money behind a soccer specific stadium and running a team. 1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said: ...“I think (Windsor and Essex County) is the right fit,” Clanachan said of the league, which plays in CONCACAF (Confederation of North, Central America and Caribbean Association Football) and against MLS squads for the Canadian Championship. “I want to see 5,000 to 6,000 fans. Think (Windsor) Spitfires and we want to be at that level and grown then to 7,500 or 8,000 and top out at 10,000 to 12,000... Divide those numbers by two all the way through and do the Spitfires comparison part at the end and the quote would be more sensible and less likely to result in mouthfuls of coffee being sprayed over monitors when readers get to that part. This is the fundamental problem the CPL currently faces. They are a league that needs 5000 to 6000 fans per game but, in most markets, draws 2000 to 3000. As much as I want a successful CPL, doubling attendance is not easy or else every other sports team out there would be doing it. They are still a young league so some pump priming by the owners is understandable. I suspect they're hoping 2026 will somehow make their teams successful and valuable to offset early losses. Ultimately, however, the teams need those 5000 to 6000 fans to be viable enterprises rather than sugar daddy projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 30 minutes ago, Kingston said: Ultimately, however, the teams need those 5000 to 6000 fans to be viable enterprises rather than sugar daddy projects. Yes, and as some of us have been pointing out since before the first player was even signed, it was always going to be a minimum of five years to get there. Those attendances don't just happen and given the pandemic, 2020 and 2021 have to be considered a write-off in that five-year timeframe. The realistic goal IMO would be a league-wide average of 5-6k by 2025 with 12 operational teams. johnyb, Ftduck, Ivan and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 36 minutes ago, Kingston said: The internet, which never lies, estimates his net worth at $5 million. Even if that has wide error bars, it doesn't put him in a position to be the money behind a soccer specific stadium and running a team. This is the fundamental problem the CPL currently faces. They are a league that needs 5000 to 6000 fans per game but, in most markets, draws 2000 to 3000. As much as I want a successful CPL, doubling attendance is not easy or else every other sports team out there would be doing it. They are still a young league so some pump priming by the owners is understandable. I suspect they're hoping 2026 will somehow make their teams successful and valuable to offset early losses. Ultimately, however, the teams need those 5000 to 6000 fans to be viable enterprises rather than sugar daddy projects. Three of the seven teams averaged 5000-6000+ in 2019, and other teams were hurt by stadium construction, poor scheduling or other means. I really don't think it's that unrealistic to get these attendances if people return to a similar comfort level as before the pandemic. Andrew W, johnyb, Bbeto and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) We have to be careful to not compare ourselves with MLS all the time. CPL will NEVER be MLS but it can be successful with a different model and approach mirroring what's being done in Scandinavia or other parts of Europe Av. attendance (2019 pre COVID) - less than 10k Denmark (2019/2020) 5,730 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/den-superligaen-2021-2022/1/ Norway (2019) 5,792 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/nor-eliteserien-2019/1/ Sweden (2019) 9,162 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/swe-allsvenskan-2019/1/ Portugal (2019/2020) 7,876 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/por-primeira-liga-2019-2020/1/ Austria (2019/2020) 6,320 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/aut-bundesliga-2019-2020/1/ England League One (2019-2020) 9,710 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-league-one-2021-2022/1/ Greece (2019/2020) 6,407 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/gre-superleague-2019-2020/1/ Switzerland (2019/2020) 7,458 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/sui-super-league-2019-2020/1/ Turkey (2019/2020) 9,027 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/tur-sueperlig-2019-2020/1/ Compare with other league around the world - It just gets old reading about the doom of the league and this or that can't work. It's up to CPL to make the league work and get as much success and money into the league with the type of attendances above. Windsor can work if they build a SSS downtown with their identity, marketing, scheduling, pricing all being done correctly. Just some perspective for the "doomsayers" seems to always have MLS in the back of their minds - try comparing with other leagues. The league isn't trying to be MLS - MLS isn't the only model to run and grow a successful league. Edited January 11, 2022 by Ansem Ruffian, Ftduck, MtlMario and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmen Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 37 minutes ago, Aird25 said: Three of the seven teams averaged 5000-6000+ in 2019, and other teams were hurt by stadium construction, poor scheduling or other means. I really don't think it's that unrealistic to get these attendances if people return to a similar comfort level as before the pandemic. I don't think 2019 is a good base line. Any new league/team has an initial wave of interest before seeing a decrease in the following years, unless the team is good. So regardless of the pandemic, I think you would have seen a decrease in attendance for some of those markets in years 2 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM3/MM2/MM Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 At some point in the near future (post COVID,) it isn't unreasonable that 6 of the 8 teams will be in the 5-6 thousand range, all except FC Edmonton and York United. ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 9 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said: At some point in the near future (post COVID,) it isn't unreasonable that 6 of the 8 teams will be in the 5-6 thousand range, all except FC Edmonton and York United. If they stop playing all those games midweek and schedule them at an appropriate time, more TV exposure via CBC or others, CCL, more CanChamp games (home and away) - I'd say yes. Bbeto, johnyb, ted and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoccMan Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Ansem said: We have to be careful to not compare ourselves with MLS all the time. CPL will NEVER be MLS but it can be successful with a different model and approach mirroring what's being done in Scandinavia or other parts of Europe Av. attendance (2019 pre COVID) - less than 10k Denmark (2019/2020) 5,730 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/den-superligaen-2021-2022/1/ Norway (2019) 5,792 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/nor-eliteserien-2019/1/ Sweden (2019) 9,162 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/swe-allsvenskan-2019/1/ Portugal (2019/2020) 7,876 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/por-primeira-liga-2019-2020/1/ Austria (2019/2020) 6,320 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/aut-bundesliga-2019-2020/1/ England League One (2019-2020) 9,710 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/eng-league-one-2021-2022/1/ Greece (2019/2020) 6,407 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/gre-superleague-2019-2020/1/ Switzerland (2019/2020) 7,458 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/sui-super-league-2019-2020/1/ Turkey (2019/2020) 9,027 https://www.worldfootball.net/attendance/tur-sueperlig-2019-2020/1/ Compare with other league around the world - It just gets old reading about the doom of the league and this or that can't work. It's up to CPL to make the league work and get as much success and money into the league with the type of attendances above. Windsor can work if they build a SSS downtown with their identity, marketing, scheduling, pricing all being done correctly. Just some perspective for the "doomsayers" seems to always have MLS in the back of their minds - try comparing with other leagues. The league isn't trying to be MLS - MLS isn't the only model to run and grow a successful league. This league should have no problem surviving with average attendance between 5 to 10000 and if they can get into more soccer friendly stadiums even better , for me proper stadiums are a big factor . York United for example good location in terms of public transit but have to do something with that stadium . ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted January 11, 2022 Share Posted January 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Aird25 said: Three of the seven teams averaged 5000-6000+ in 2019, and other teams were hurt by stadium construction, poor scheduling or other means. I really don't think it's that unrealistic to get these attendances if people return to a similar comfort level as before the pandemic. Halifax averaged 6061 which is great. Hamilton averaged 5740 if you remove the huge, league-first-ever game and Winnipeg 5368, both of which are fine. The problem is that the others were all in the two and three thousands, even with that "new team smell". They all need to literally double their attendance just to get to the minimum sustainable numbers. 1 hour ago, Ansem said: We have to be careful to not compare ourselves with MLS all the time. CPL will NEVER be MLS but it can be successful with a different model and approach mirroring what's being done in Scandinavia or other parts of Europe We definitely don't need to become MLS. History (and various numbers mentioned by the league) says we need at least 5000 for a break even league that operates at a national level. Some aspects of parts of Europe we can usefully adopt but nothing is going to move the span of our major cities thousands of kilometres closer together. 38 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said: At some point in the near future (post COVID,) it isn't unreasonable that 6 of the 8 teams will be in the 5-6 thousand range, all except FC Edmonton and York United. It isn't impossible, but it's not going to happen just because it could. There are improvements that can be made to scheduling in some markets and there are always other tweaks to be made. My worry is that these are going to add 10% whereas we need to double the numbers. That's much harder. And remember, the only season we have that wasn't messed up by covid was the first ever. It seems likely those numbers were boosted by the "new" factor rather. I very much want it to work, but I want a reason to think attendance will rise, not just a vague expectation that teams will add 1000 fans a year to get to five or six thousand by year five. Watchmen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now