Rida Zouhir

[sebdeserio]

25 minutes ago, phresh said:

On the basis of what? Is it that hard to accept these players are way too good for this league?

On the basis of Tabla, of Assi, as narduch mentioned the real comparison will be Perruzza who managed 3 in 6 as a 19 year old and 1 in 157 mostly sub appearances as a 20 year old for San Antonio and is now 92 minutes in at Halifax.

[phresh]

5 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

On the basis of Tabla, of Assi, as narduch mentioned the real comparison will be Perruzza who managed 3 in 6 as a 19 year old and 1 in 157 mostly sub appearances as a 20 year old for San Antonio and is now 92 minutes in at Halifax.

Where do Tabla and Assi fit in? Are you implying they have similar if not superior talent to Zouhir, and would therefore have inflated goal contributions in the USL? If so, that's entirely hypothetical. How can Perruzza serve as a comparison when he barely played in the USL and has only, as you explained, played 92 minutes for Halifax? Saying he tore up the USL is a bit of an exaggeration given the amount of minutes he played. He would have to had played longer and continued to produce over that timespan, say like Oluwaseyi who has 14 goals and 5 assists in 15 games.

[sebdeserio]

24 minutes ago, phresh said:

Where do Tabla and Assi fit in? Are you implying they have similar if not superior talent to Zouhir, and would therefore have inflated goal contributions in the USL? If so, that's entirely hypothetical. How can Perruzza serve as a comparison when he barely played in the USL and has only, as you explained, played 92 minutes for Halifax? Saying he tore up the USL is a bit of an exaggeration given the amount of minutes he played. He would have to had played longer and continued to produce over that timespan, say like Oluwaseyi who has 14 goals and 5 assists in 15 games.

Not only has Tabla shown he can be an MLS player but he's also a winger and he managed 7 goals and 4 assists in 30 CPL games. I don't follow Montreal too much but seems like there was the same amount of hype for Assi as for Zouhir and he's a winger as well. He's got 3 goal contributions in 13 starts, or 1131 minutes. How can Perruzza not be a comparable he's played in both leagues and imo 6 starts and 536 minutes across 2 seasons is enough to make a decent assumption about what his output would be. I said the real comparison "will be" as we need to see how the rest of the season goes for Perruzza but I think it's likelier that Zouhir's 10 goal contributions in 13 starts and 1097 minutes is due to the level of the league and less because he's currently a worldbeater.

Edit: Not that I don't think he may be a much better player by the end of the season, but I don't think he'd be putting up similar numbers in the CPL.

Edited August 17, 2023 by sebdeserio

[Stryker911]

1 hour ago, kacbru said:

Great for him.  But are the defenders on the take?  That is some terrible defending.

 

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

These loan spells on Sam Antonio have made me question the level. No way these guys would be putting up these numbers in CPL. 

I hate how this is the response so many times when one of our guys scores a nice goal. He had a nice couple touches and instead of thinking wow that was nice, it must be because the other team is so bad?

Here is the guys he got by in that play. Ritondale (21 year old USL player), Torres (US international, 119 games in Liga MX), Benitez (1 Venezuala cap), Coronado (USL vet), Kinsler (20 years old, US youth international), Deric (91 games for Houston). Pretty solid guys to get around.

[kacbru]

5 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

 

I hate how this is the response so many times when one of our guys scores a nice goal. He had a nice couple touches and instead of thinking wow that was nice, it must be because the other team is so bad?

Here is the guys he got by in that play. Ritondale (21 year old USL player), Torres (US international, 119 games in Liga MX), Benitez (1 Venezuala cap), Coronado (USL vet), Kinsler (20 years old, US youth international), Deric (91 games for Houston). Pretty solid guys to get around.

To me it looked like a couple of loose touches and defenders that were slowly trying their best to get out of the way. At no point did I  think wow that was nice. I've seen him score other goals that made me think that, but this was not one of them.  

[king1010]

1 hour ago, kacbru said:

To me it looked like a couple of loose touches and defenders that were slowly trying their best to get out of the way. At no point did I  think wow that was nice. I've seen him score other goals that made me think that, but this was not one of them.  

The first touch was loose, maybe the second. The 3rd 4th and 5th were class. 
 

He walked half the team. Not sure how you dont think it was “nice”. It sure wasnt average. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by king1010

[InglewoodJack]

Rio Grande, who SAFC played last night has a market value of $3.32M- identical to HFX Wanderers. They are the 5th “smallest” team in USL by that metric but would be 4th highest in CPL. San Antonio has the most expensive roster at $5.8M, or $2M higher than Ottawa, the most expensive team in CPL, comparable to the 14th most expensive team in USL. Not a perfect metric by any means but I don’t understand how a player can be playing lights out in a league with higher wages, more expensive and better teams and then people argue that he couldn’t do it in a smaller league. 

[CanadaFan123]

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Rio Grande, who SAFC played last night has a market value of $3.32M- identical to HFX Wanderers. They are the 5th “smallest” team in USL by that metric but would be 4th highest in CPL. San Antonio has the most expensive roster at $5.8M, or $2M higher than Ottawa, the most expensive team in CPL, comparable to the 14th most expensive team in USL. Not a perfect metric by any means but I don’t understand how a player can be playing lights out in a league with higher wages, more expensive and better teams and then people argue that he couldn’t do it in a smaller league. 

We can discuss the actual football rather than silly made up numbers from a website. Maybe those teams are better “on paper” but it’s clear to me that US D2 is not the level it once was. With CPL the competition format makes for a tighter competition and higher level IMO. This is off 20 years watching d2 soccer. No striker or midfielder across 8 teams in 5 seasons has had a run like the two Canadians are on San Antonio. 

[InglewoodJack]

23 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

We can discuss the actual football rather than silly made up numbers from a website. Maybe those teams are better “on paper” but it’s clear to me that US D2 is not the level it once was. With CPL the competition format makes for a tighter competition and higher level IMO. This is off 20 years watching d2 soccer. No striker or midfielder across 8 teams in 5 seasons has had a run like the two Canadians are on San Antonio. 

But you aren’t discussing the actual football, your argument is basically “vibes say the CPL is better”. If CPL has all those things you’re saying, why didn’t Montreal loan Zouhir, who they’ve been hyping for like 2-3 years to the CPL like they have for many players before him, instead of sending him to San Antonio? 

[CanadaFan123]

30 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

But you aren’t discussing the actual football, your argument is basically “vibes say the CPL is better”. If CPL has all those things you’re saying, why didn’t Montreal loan Zouhir, who they’ve been hyping for like 2-3 years to the CPL like they have for many players before him, instead of sending him to San Antonio? 

I’ve discussed the format and competition not “vibes”. There’s no doubt the level of D2 soccer has fallen. I’m a major advocate for players playing under pressure for something - I think it’s crucial and that’s something you get with CPL. There’s a league title and champions league on the line. 
 

Why didn’t they loan him to CPL? It could be that a CPL team couldn’t guarantee him time. Who knows? Montreal hasn’t been averse to CPL loans for their top prospects. Maybe CPL is the next step up if he isn’t ready next season. 

[Dominic94]

The CPL may have passed the USL champ by now in caliber but not by much if it has

[archer21]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

But you aren’t discussing the actual football, your argument is basically “vibes say the CPL is better”. If CPL has all those things you’re saying, why didn’t Montreal loan Zouhir, who they’ve been hyping for like 2-3 years to the CPL like they have for many players before him, instead of sending him to San Antonio? 

I don’t know which league is better, but it does feel like Zouhir is dominating at a level that would be unlikely in CPL. Montreal obviously valued Rea more than Zouhir, and he didn’t dominate like this, although he was admittedly one of the top players still.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, archer21 said:

I don’t know which league is better, but it does feel like Zouhir is dominating at a level that would be unlikely in CPL. Montreal obviously valued Rea more than Zouhir, and he didn’t dominate like this, although he was admittedly one of the top players still.

I tend to agree with this, I'd like to see if he could do the same in CPL but my gut feeling tells me he'd find the league harder than USL

[Ottawafan]

I don't want to see him in the CPL at this point.  Needs to be up at MLS and given serious minutes.

[InglewoodJack]

21 minutes ago, archer21 said:

I don’t know which league is better, but it does feel like Zouhir is dominating at a level that would be unlikely in CPL. Montreal obviously valued Rea more than Zouhir, and he didn’t dominate like this, although he was admittedly one of the top players still.

Zouhir is 19 and Rea is 21- Rea’s CPL season last year was obviously better than Zouhir’s season in Montreal where he didn’t play, so he was ahead in his development by that point and worth giving a shot to with Montreal. There was always going to be one of Rea/Zouhir/Saliba that ended up with the short end of the stick, and because Saliba looked good early and Rea had a solid start to the season, RZ got the short end of the stick. 
 

In terms of whether he would dominate like this in the CPL- I don’t know, but TJ Tahid had like 2 goals in his first 4 games as a 16 year old this year? Ollie Bassett came from like the 18th division of English soccer and has been a dominant player over the last few years. 

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I’ve discussed the format and competition not “vibes”. There’s no doubt the level of D2 soccer has fallen. I’m a major advocate for players playing under pressure for something - I think it’s crucial and that’s something you get with CPL. There’s a league title and champions league on the line. 
 

Why didn’t they loan him to CPL? It could be that a CPL team couldn’t guarantee him time. Who knows? Montreal hasn’t been averse to CPL loans for their top prospects. Maybe CPL is the next step up if he isn’t ready next season. 

How could he not get playing time? Assi and Illidis get playing time with Ottawa, and I think Zouhir is the better prospect. 
 

Also, how has the level of “D2” fallen? USL players are getting transferred to Europe more than ever, teams are investing more into their infrastructure than ever, teams are playing friendlies against quality opposition- Zouhir’s San Antonio FC played against Sunderland this summer and other teams played against a few German teams. Not saying USL is this elite league or anything, but CPL and USL broadly have the same purpose- domestic leagues for players not good enough for MLS, and I find it very hard to believe that Canada’s league is better than the US one with bigger budgets.

[jonovision]

San Antonio are the top team in the league and averaging over 2 goals per game. Those goals are bound to come from somewhere. Oluwaseyi has a fantastic strike rate (14 goals from 15 games), helped by having a 4 goal and a 3 goal game this season. Zouhir, including his recent hot streak, has 7 goals from 15 matches, very good but hardly earth shattering. 

I don't think these stats are the basis for an argument that USL Championship is weaker than the CPL (and I expect if we saw competitive matches between the two leagues we'd see the opposite). If shoddy-seeming defending, as in the most recent clip, is a reason for rating a league poorly, it wouldn't take too much digging through the archive of Valour matches from previous seasons to turn up something just as damning.

Edited August 17, 2023 by jonovision

[Ansem]

29 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

CPL and USL broadly have the same purpose- domestic leagues for players not good enough for MLS,

So La Liga, Ligue 1, Serie A and Bundesliga have the same purpose - domestic leagues for players not good enough for EPL
 

[CanadaFan123]

57 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Zouhir is 19 and Rea is 21- Rea’s CPL season last year was obviously better than Zouhir’s season in Montreal where he didn’t play, so he was ahead in his development by that point and worth giving a shot to with Montreal. There was always going to be one of Rea/Zouhir/Saliba that ended up with the short end of the stick, and because Saliba looked good early and Rea had a solid start to the season, RZ got the short end of the stick. 
 

In terms of whether he would dominate like this in the CPL- I don’t know, but TJ Tahid had like 2 goals in his first 4 games as a 16 year old this year? Ollie Bassett came from like the 18th division of English soccer and has been a dominant player over the last few years. 

How could he not get playing time? Assi and Illidis get playing time with Ottawa, and I think Zouhir is the better prospect. 
 

Also, how has the level of “D2” fallen? USL players are getting transferred to Europe more than ever, teams are investing more into their infrastructure than ever, teams are playing friendlies against quality opposition- Zouhir’s San Antonio FC played against Sunderland this summer and other teams played against a few German teams. Not saying USL is this elite league or anything, but CPL and USL broadly have the same purpose- domestic leagues for players not good enough for MLS, and I find it very hard to believe that Canada’s league is better than the US one with bigger budgets.

The level of D2 has fallen because MLS has taken their main markets (and CPL has taken Ottawa). The growth of MLS has also given more spots to players who might typically have been in D2 in past decades. MLS has also put a lot of their top prospects in MLS Next due to expanded rosters/rules. All of these factors have caused the D2 level to fall IMO.

Interesting you raise Illiadis as I think it’s clear Montreal rated him higher than Zouhir and chose to loan him to Ottawa - where he’s not dominating at the level of Zouhir or even solidified a spot yet. His competition in the Ottawa midfield is tougher than in San Antonio’s objectively. San Antonio is the top team in USL. 

In any event we’re not discussing something earth shattering. Just a shift from what North American soccer has been in past decades. As Canadians we’re not used to it but it’s clear to me that CPL has pulled ahead of USL in overall level. Competition is crucial and that’s what we have up here. Not talking about players that have been sold - just competition here. I think MLS is starting to realize how competition is important as well with the leagues cup - 10x better than their snore fest of a regular season. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[Ottawafan]

For a young player needing to develop, being in the best situation in terms of coaching/minutes is more important than which league is minutely better than the other. 

[InglewoodJack]

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So La Liga, Ligue 1, Serie A and Bundesliga have the same purpose - domestic leagues for players not good enough for EPL
 

I mean, kinda, yeah.

 

10 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

The level of D2 has fallen because MLS has taken their main markets (and CPL has taken Ottawa). The growth of MLS has also given more spots to players who might typically have been in D2 in past decades. MLS has also put a lot of their top prospects in MLS Next due to expanded rosters/rules. All of these factors have caused the D2 level to fall IMO.

In any event we’re not discussing something earth shattering. Just a shift from what North American soccer has been in past decades. 

That's fair if we're comparing it to pre/post MLS expansion. I just like a lot of the investments the USL is making into growing the league- I think it is Indy Eleven that is investing something crazy like $1B on a stadium/facilities/housing, I like that a lot of these teams are playing friendlies against good European teams, the salaries are higher, teams draw pretty solid attendance- Louisville and NM draw over 10k/game, San Antonio is around 7 and change, I like some of the big transfers that they've seen over the last few years- Josh Wynder to Benfica, Kobi Henry to Reims (not to say that some CPL guys haven't received some huge moves themselves), I don't think it's a bad league at all.

I'd love to say that the CPL is a better league, I like the CPL and I think it's underrated for what it is, but if the CPL is *currently* better than USL Championship, that means Canada has been able to bootstrap a domestic league better than the US has on a way smaller budget (yes I know MLS is technically CPL's direct comparison, but USL is so much more similar), and if that's the case, I'm inclined to believe that if we poured in as much money into the CPL as USL teams do, it may grow to be one of the best domestic leagues outside of Europe and South America pretty quickly.

Either way, I think Zouhir needs to move back to Montreal after this season and break into our roster, I don't think a CPL move would make sense, regardless of level, and I think it's important for him to showcase just how much of this world beating form can be translated to MLS. He should be able to have a similar impact to Kone from his season in Montreal, but with these steps up from other North American leagues like JRR from Next Pro or Rea from CPL, you never know how it'll translate. Inclined to believe Zouhir's performances are more legit than those other two, but I'll have to see it to believe it. Definite reason to be excited for his progress though.

[Stryker911]

The best comparison between CPL and USL is versus MLS teams in cup competitions. 

Over the past 3 seasons the CPL is 1-12 (0.077) while over the previous 2 seasons USL is 10-26 (0.278). Pretty clear that USL is ahead of CPL. Would be better to get more data, however, the seasons before were cancelled.

[phresh]

13 hours ago, sebdeserio said:

Not only has Tabla shown he can be an MLS player but he's also a winger and he managed 7 goals and 4 assists in 30 CPL games. I don't follow Montreal too much but seems like there was the same amount of hype for Assi as for Zouhir and he's a winger as well. He's got 3 goal contributions in 13 starts, or 1131 minutes. How can Perruzza not be a comparable he's played in both leagues and imo 6 starts and 536 minutes across 2 seasons is enough to make a decent assumption about what his output would be. I said the real comparison "will be" as we need to see how the rest of the season goes for Perruzza but I think it's likelier that Zouhir's 10 goal contributions in 13 starts and 1097 minutes is due to the level of the league and less because he's currently a worldbeater.

Edit: Not that I don't think he may be a much better player by the end of the season, but I don't think he'd be putting up similar numbers in the CPL.

Using Assi in your argument doesn't make sense, you are basically saying he's hyped and the fact he's not producing is somehow indicative that the CPL is a harder league and not that Zouhir is better than him right now. He doesn't play as a traditional winger for Ottawa either, often plays right mid or rwb. At least with Tabla, he played in the USL with Montreal's reserve team back in the day and produced some good numbers, pretty similar to his CPL output in fact. So that leaves Perruzza, and you are right that he will serve as a better comparison but even then, 536 USL minutes is not a very large sample size

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

The best comparison between CPL and USL is versus MLS teams in cup competitions. 

Over the past 3 seasons the CPL is 1-12 (0.077) while over the previous 2 seasons USL is 10-26 (0.278). Pretty clear that USL is ahead of CPL. Would be better to get more data, however, the seasons before were cancelled.

I don't know much about the US Open Cup, but aren't a lot of those losses to USL teams in the early rounds without many MLS stars on the field. I think teams treat a game in the early rounds of a tournament with loads of teams left vs the finals or semifinals of a tournament differently. That being said, that's a decent record against higher ranking teams

[InglewoodJack]

Came off the bench and scored his 8th

[Dominic94]

I would think another loan is coming, but at a higher level as there’s a clear log jam.