Daniel Jebbison

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

If he's really good and then doesn't play for us, then said player isn't comitted. Period. Its a dumb take anyway to put it.

Agree to disagree I guess.  There is a lot of daylight between “good enough for the English NT (or other big footy country)” and “good enough to contribute to the CMNT”.   And we generally do not get duals who are the former.  See Whore, JDG2, Tomori, Chrisante, etc.  

So having duals not quite at that tier (but still good enough to rep us) increase our chances of having them ultimately commit to us.  And our history has shown that even reluctant internationals tend to fully commit once they decide to rep the maple leaf.  

Edited February 11, 2022 by dyslexic nam

[Corazon]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Agree to disagree I guess.  There is a lot of daylight between “good enough for the English NT (or other big footy country)” and “good enough to contribute to the CMNT”.   And we generally do not get duals who are the former.  See Whore, JDG2, Tomori, Chrisante, etc.  

So having duals not quite at that tier (but still good enough to rep us) increase our chances of having them ultimately commit to us.  And our history has shown that even reluctant internationals tend to fully commit once they decide to rep the maple leaf.  

Agreed.  Jebbison could hold off for three more years and then commit to us and he'd still be younger than when Eustaquio committed to us.  He'd be far younger than either Hoilett & Vitoria.  Where would we be without those 3 this qualifying campaign.  I don't understand this "if he doesn't commit to us as soon as possible, we don't want him" attitude.  Yes, sure we are getting to the point where we have other players with similar quality where the losses don't hurt us anymore.  But this attitude that we need to move on from every quality teenager that isn't ready to commit to Canada is a bit of a ridiculous mentality.  Especially considering so many key pieces of our current group literally did that to our program.  It must pain the same people with this attitude when they see the Canadian international successes of Eustaquio, Vitoria, Hoilett, Cavallini, Ugbo etc.  It must pain these same people even more when watching players like Eustaquio celebrate the way he does after every goal Canada scores.  Or the way Hoilett belts out the Canadian anthem.  Or the way, Vitoria leads our team and occasionally wears our captain armband.  Since these are the players "we don't want in our program".

Edited February 11, 2022 by Corazon

[VinceA]

45 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Agree to disagree I guess.  There is a lot of daylight between “good enough for the English NT (or other big footy country)” and “good enough to contribute to the CMNT”.   And we generally do not get duals who are the former.  See Whore, JDG2, Tomori, Chrisante, etc.  

So having duals not quite at that tier (but still good enough to rep us) increase our chances of having them ultimately commit to us.  And our history has shown that even reluctant internationals tend to fully commit once they decide to rep the maple leaf.  

random but JDG2's son plays at the Feyernoord academy and would be Canada eligible. Something to keep an eye on I suppose.

[Mattd97]

42 minutes ago, VinceA said:

random but JDG2's son plays at the Feyernoord academy and would be Canada eligible. Something to keep an eye on I suppose.

That doesnt make sense, JDG2 is like 18 how could he possibly have a kid playing academy soccer.

 

 

how old am i, damn. that update hurt me

[VinceA]

24 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

That doesnt make sense, JDG2 is like 18 how could he possibly have a kid playing academy soccer.

 

 

how old am i, damn. that update hurt me

in fairness he did have his kid at 20. Hell Liam Millar is much younger than me and he's already a dad. Footballers waste no time I suppose.

[LeoH037]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Agree to disagree I guess.  There is a lot of daylight between “good enough for the English NT (or other big footy country)” and “good enough to contribute to the CMNT”.   And we generally do not get duals who are the former.  See Whore, JDG2, Tomori, Chrisante, etc.  

So having duals not quite at that tier (but still good enough to rep us) increase our chances of having them ultimately commit to us.  And our history has shown that even reluctant internationals tend to fully commit once they decide to rep the maple leaf.  

Thats all fine and dandy, but thats not what im arguing. Im arguing that this whole defeatist take where we hope that dual nationals are good but not that good so that we may have a "chance" to recruit them is stupid AF. Fuck that. We should hope that every single player that is elligible to rep us is as elite as they can possibly be, regardless of who else they may be elligible to rep. In the end, we need to start somewhere, and quality attracts more quality. 

[CanadaFan123]

7 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

Thats all fine and dandy, but thats not what im arguing. Im arguing that this whole defeatist take where we hope that dual nationals are good but not that good so that we may have a "chance" to recruit them is stupid AF. Fuck that. We should hope that every single player that is elligible to rep us is as elite as they can possibly be, regardless of who else they may be elligible to rep. In the end, we need to start somewhere, and quality attracts more quality. 

Agreed. The idea that we should be a top 30 FIFA nation doesn't jive with the idea that we should hope our top eligible u20 player is "good .. but not too good". 

Top 30 teams aren't made up of Championship players. We should be hoping Jebbison reaches Davies/David levels so we can keep our pipeline going. 

I am confident he is going to choose Canada. We will be constant fixtures at the World Cup and he will be a big part of that. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by CanadaFan123

[frmr]

9 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

Thats all fine and dandy, but thats not what im arguing. Im arguing that this whole defeatist take where we hope that dual nationals are good but not that good so that we may have a "chance" to recruit them is stupid AF. Fuck that. We should hope that every single player that is elligible to rep us is as elite as they can possibly be, regardless of who else they may be elligible to rep. In the end, we need to start somewhere, and quality attracts more quality. 

That's fine but look what happened to Tomori. He was in that sphere of being good enough for Canada and questionably good enough for Engalnd. Unfortunately for us, the second case was also true. Barely. I think it's perfectly acceptable for Canada supporters to recognize this phenomenon and hope for dual nationals to be in the sweet spot of good enough for us, but not good enough for their top 10 in the world other country. If Jebbison becomes a top 10 striker in the world you can bet he'll be playing for England. I don't know why anyone would want that.

edit: ...until after he commits for Canada.

Edited February 11, 2022 by frmr

[EJsens1]

2 minutes ago, LeoH037 said:

Thats all fine and dandy, but thats not what im arguing. Im arguing that this whole defeatist take where we hope that dual nationals are good but not that good so that we may have a "chance" to recruit them is stupid AF. Fuck that. We should hope that every single player that is elligible to rep us is as elite as they can possibly be, regardless of who else they may be elligible to rep. In the end, we need to start somewhere, and quality attracts more quality. 

I get what dyslexic nam is saying but I agree with what you’re saying. The parameters have changed for this team. We need quality players to reach their max potential.  Don’t wanna play for us?  All the best somewhere else except when you play us. We’ve get a lot of depth for sure. The key long term is to develop guys who can continually replace older players as they age out.  Maybe we just hit the jack pot with a golden generation but I believe we’ll be a power in CONCACAF going forward even after guys like Davies and David start to step away in ten or more years. The ability to get better will push the US and Mexico to get better too, while we might hate that in a sense, is better for this region around the world 

[frmr]

I don't think anyone is saying they don't want Jebbison to reach his full potential. We just want it to happen after he commits to Canada. If he suddenly became a top scorer in the EPL at age 20, England is going to throw the kitchen sink at him. That's not a good outcome for us no matter how you look at it.

[dyslexic nam]

Yeah, I mean we have recent and past examples of where young over-achievers have passed up on our invitations to seek glory with bigger teams.  Two big ones in the last couple of years.  Take a principled stand if you want but I am still a pragmatist.  If Jebbison shows signs that he is absolutely good enough for England we will not see him in a Canada shirt any time soon.  I am sure of that.  Call if defeatist if you want but it doesn’t change the fact that it has been true historically and continues to be true today.

Anyway, won’t belabour it because I doubt anyone is convincing anyone else in this debate.  

[narduch]

If he continues to ride the bench at Sheffield he will not be good enough for either nation.

[CanadaFan123]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah, I mean we have recent and past examples of where young over-achievers have passed up on our invitations to seek glory with bigger teams.  Two big ones in the last couple of years.  Take a principled stand if you want but I am still a pragmatist.  If Jebbison shows signs that he is absolutely good enough for England we will not see him in a Canada shirt any time soon.  I am sure of that.  Call if defeatist if you want but it doesn’t change the fact that it has been true historically and continues to be true today.

Anyway, won’t belabour it because I doubt anyone is convincing anyone else in this debate.  

Who are you referring to here? Tomori? I think it's important to add context ... Tomori is not "Canadian", of course he was always going to prefer England regardless. 

Who is the other player? Kadioglu? Not Canadian. Yankov? Strange but also not a guy we'll lose sleep over - I would bet he sincerely regrets his decision. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by CanadaFan123

[EJsens1]

14 minutes ago, frmr said:

I don't think anyone is saying they don't want Jebbison to reach his full potential. We just want it to happen after he commits to Canada. If he suddenly became a top scorer in the EPL at age 20, England is going to throw the kitchen sink at him. That's not a good outcome for us no matter how you look at it.

That is a good point.  It’s a good debate.  To  me it’s reach your potential and the chips fall where they do.  I think the difference now is that we’re a player here for guys to commit their services too. We don’t need to beg to convince someone to play here, at least that’s how I see it. 

[narduch]

Just now, CanadaFan123 said:

Who are you referring to here? Tomori? I think it's important to add context ... Tomori is not "Canadian", of course he was always going to prefer England regardless. 

Who is the other player? Kadioglu? Not Canadian. Yankov? Strange but also not a guy we'll lose sleep over - I would be he sincerely regrets his decision. 

Tomori burns a bit because he did play U-20 for us.

It would also suck if guys like Dias and Flores don't choose Canada.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, frmr said:

I don't think anyone is saying they don't want Jebbison to reach his full potential. We just want it to happen after he commits to Canada. If he suddenly became a top scorer in the EPL at age 20, England is going to throw the kitchen sink at him. That's not a good outcome for us no matter how you look at it.

I would go as far as saying that he doesn't even need to be a "top scorer" in terms of the Premier League.

He may just simply need to be the top scorer at Sheffield in the Premier League, because being 20 years old and leading your side in goals is noteworthy, even if you only get 7, 8 or 9 goals. Bigger clubs are definitely circling then.

Why wouldn't you think you could eventually play for England at that point? 

And remember, it's not about whether we think he can play for England, it's about whether he thinks he can play for England. 

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[CanadaFan123]

42 minutes ago, narduch said:

Tomori burns a bit because he did play U-20 for us.

It would also suck if guys like Dias and Flores don't choose Canada.

I get that but at the same time he didn't owe anything to us. We're the ones who chose to call up a English player in the Chelsea academy, we knew from the start that it would play out this way if he was able to play for his country.

[Obinna]

54 minutes ago, narduch said:

Tomori burns a bit because he did play U-20 for us.

It would also suck if guys like Dias and Flores don't choose Canada.

Obviously I would have loved to have Tomori, but wouldn't that have blocked the emergence of Johnston at RCB?

[dyslexic nam]

56 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Who are you referring to here? Tomori? I think it's important to add context ... Tomori is not "Canadian", of course he was always going to prefer England regardless. 

Who is the other player? Kadioglu? Not Canadian. Yankov? Strange but also not a guy we'll lose sleep over - I would bet he sincerely regrets his decision. 

Tomori and Chrisante are the two guys I was thinking of.  You may not consider them Canadian but they were Canada eligible which seems to be the main consideration here since most guys aren’t making their choices solely on the basis of “feels”.  Both of those guys could have played for us (Tomori did at U20) but chose to rep the other big country for which they were eligible.  If they weren’t good enough for England and Italy respectively, I suspect they would both be in our current WC squad - which is really the point with respect to Jebbison.  Guys that think they are good enough for another footy powerhouse have not chosen to rep us before they know the other door is closed (Hoilett, Arfield) or very unlikely (Staq, Akinola).  The ones with serious options (whore, JDG2, Chrisante, Tomori, Ferdi) have all chosen to rep the other nation.  That may change as we continue to get noticed on the global stage but for a guy like Jebbison I still think it very much matters whether or not he is getting signals that he is in line for a future England call up. 

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Obviously I would have loved to have Tomori, but wouldn't that have blocked the emergence of Johnston at RCB?

I love Johnston but Tomori is a starting CB for AC Milan when healthy.  At 24 years old he would have been a massive addition to our player pool.  

[CanadaFan123]

8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Tomori and Chrisante are the two guys I was thinking of.  You may not consider them Canadian but they were Canada eligible which seems to be the main consideration here since most guys aren’t making their choices solely on the basis of “feels”.  Both of those guys could have played for us (Tomori did at U20) but chose to rep the other big country for which they were eligible.  If they weren’t good enough for England and Italy respectively, I suspect they would both be in our current WC squad - which is really the point with respect to Jebbison.  Guys that think they are good enough for another footy powerhouse have not chosen to rep us before they know the other door is closed (Hoilett, Arfield) or very unlikely (Staq, Akinola).  The ones with serious options (whore, JDG2, Chrisante, Tomori, Ferdi) have all chosen to rep the other nation.  That may change as we continue to get noticed on the global stage but for a guy like Jebbison I still think it very much matters whether or not he is getting signals that he is in line for a future England call up. 

Arfield, Tomori and Cristante fit into their own group of players: non-Canadians who of course would prefer to play for their actual nation. Hoilett we're not sure of ... I don't think he would have ever been eligible for England due to the home nations rule so he just seems to fit in a club v country category for me.

Eustaquio and Akinola were not very unlikely to play for Portugal and USA respectively. Eustaquio would be close to a Portugal cap, if not capped already and Akinola was capped by the USA.

We really haven't had many defections from true Canadians. Back in the 2000s we had Hargreaves, Begovic, Lensky, JDG2. In recent years we've been much better. 

[Ivan]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Tomori and Chrisante are the two guys I was thinking of.  You may not consider them Canadian but they were Canada eligible which seems to be the main consideration here since most guys aren’t making their choices solely on the basis of “feels”.  Both of those guys could have played for us (Tomori did at U20) but chose to rep the other big country for which they were eligible.  If they weren’t good enough for England and Italy respectively, I suspect they would both be in our current WC squad - which is really the point with respect to Jebbison.  Guys that think they are good enough for another footy powerhouse have not chosen to rep us before they know the other door is closed (Hoilett, Arfield) or very unlikely (Staq, Akinola).  The ones with serious options (whore, JDG2, Chrisante, Tomori, Ferdi) have all chosen to rep the other nation.  That may change as we continue to get noticed on the global stage but for a guy like Jebbison I still think it very much matters whether or not he is getting signals that he is in line for a future England call up. 

Whore and JDG2 were a while ago.  Things have changed.  Tomori was born here, but left at 2 and grew up in England.  That is where his heart lies, good for him.  Cristante and Ferdi weren't born here and never lived here. Fuck, I don't know that Ferdi ever stepped foot in Canada.  Jebbison was born here and grew up here to what 14, 15 16?  His dad played basketball for Canada.  Flores and Dias were born here and grew up here to 11 or 12?  Big difference.

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I love Johnston but Tomori is a starting CB for AC Milan when healthy.  At 24 years old he would have been a massive addition to our player pool.  

For sure, I guess the silver lining is the rapid emergence of Johnston though, which I don't think happens with Tomori in the side. Johnston would have likely gotten RB reps in a back four, but he'd probably only have half the caps right now. 

[LeoH037]

1 hour ago, frmr said:

That's fine but look what happened to Tomori. He was in that sphere of being good enough for Canada and questionably good enough for Engalnd. Unfortunately for us, the second case was also true. Barely. I think it's perfectly acceptable for Canada supporters to recognize this phenomenon and hope for dual nationals to be in the sweet spot of good enough for us, but not good enough for their top 10 in the world other country. If Jebbison becomes a top 10 striker in the world you can bet he'll be playing for England. I don't know why anyone would want that.

edit: ...until after he commits for Canada.

Ugh. This mentality is both depressing and pathetic. Just no. I first most want a guy like Jebbison to get better, regardless when he choses to commit. Whether he choses to play for us or England is something I'll worry about after the fact. Its one thing to become a top 20 nation, its another to remain there indefinetly, and sub par talent won't keep us there. 

[frmr]

1 minute ago, LeoH037 said:

Ugh. This mentality is both depressing and pathetic. Just no. I first most want a guy like Jebbison to get better, regardless when he choses to commit. Whether he choses to play for us or England is something I'll worry about after the fact. Its one thing to become a top 20 nation, its another to remain there indefinetly, and sub par talent won't keep us there. 

Ugh. Sorry to ruin your day with my depressing and pathetic opinion. Ugh.