2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[Dub Narcotic]

They definitely need something. The wheels have really come off the bus for this team. We can debate the resepective merits of Osorio and Altidore vis a vis other players and their salaries but does the team ever look way worse without both of them. Chapman is particularly poor, as is Endoh, and neither fullback offers enough going forward to make up for the lack of possession in midfield and punch in attack.

[Gian-Luca]

14 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

They definitely need something. The wheels have really come off the bus for this team. We can debate the resepective merits of Osorio and Altidore vis a vis other players and their salaries but does the team ever look way worse without both of them. Chapman is particularly poor, as is Endoh, and neither fullback offers enough going forward to make up for the lack of possession in midfield and punch in attack.

Not sure I saw anyone complaining about Osorio's salary, that's a new one on me. But yes, either they give Hamilton a chance or please do bring in some kind of target striker (although one doesn't preclude the other). Babouli is doing well and despite setting up Giovinco three times for glorious scoring opportunities that he missed in today's game, I think you want a bigger man player with one of the other at some point during the game (or all of the game if Giovinco departs for the Euros).

 

[Ivan]

Is it just me or has Justin Morrow been horrible the last 2 games?

[Bison44]

On the positive side Babouli has looked better and better.  He gave Giovinco a couple of nice set ups that he blew!  I hope Gio gets to like playing with Babouli and he can continue to get minutes over Endoh, Lovitz etc.  And just for giggles, how much would you bet Alitdore will be just fine when the copa america rolls around and weasels his way onto the squad.  

[RJB]

It's pretty crazy that the TFC has had 14 goals this year, and Giovinco has been in on 13 of them.  Add to that that tonight against Columbus, the team had 8 shots (2 on target), and they were ALL BY GIOVINCO!  It's been 12 games, which is over one-third of the season, so I think it's pretty obvious at this point they don't have much more of a plan.

He's the best player to ever play in MLS, that has been proven to no end.  But seriously, is the club planning to diversify their game at all?  Is it naive of me to call the TFC a one-trick-pony?

[Dub Narcotic]

I'm mixed on Giovinco this year. He really stalls a lot of attacks by not moving the ball quickly. I don't blame him for feeling that he has to do everything on his own given the mediocrity around him but there is so often that there is a good pass option but Giovionco just dribbles and dribbles until he gets triple teamed and loses the ball or has to pass backwards, killing the attack.

[Bison44]

Sometimes it seems like he has given up on involving others in the offense.  For example,he had Beitashour making a run into open spaces on his right and he held it way to long..beitashour goes offside.  Then later in the game Gio crossed into open spaces on the right and Beitashour didn't make the run quick enough and the pass went out of bounds and Gio screamed and waved his arms etc.  He is the best player out there, but he needs to put a little more work into bringing someone else along with him, or teams will just foul him to death..or wait until he wont pass and runs into 3 defenders.  It seemed to me that Babouli in particular gave him a few really good feeds and he was unable to finish.  Hopefully he'll continue to try and work in the others and not turn it into a 1 man show where the rest of the team starts to resent him and ruin the chemisty in the locker room.  

[aloyol]

1 hour ago, Dub Narcotic said:

I'm mixed on Giovinco this year. He really stalls a lot of attacks by not moving the ball quickly. I don't blame him for feeling that he has to do everything on his own given the mediocrity around him but there is so often that there is a good pass option but Giovionco just dribbles and dribbles until he gets triple teamed and loses the ball or has to pass backwards, killing the attack.

I agree and I watched a lot of the Impact this year and you can make a similar argument about Piatti play. I don't mind a player like Giovinco or Piatti loosing the ball after too many dribbles but sometimes I feel like they are trying to do too much.

[Gian-Luca]

4 hours ago, aloyol said:

I agree and I watched a lot of the Impact this year and you can make a similar argument about Piatti play. I don't mind a player like Giovinco or Piatti loosing the ball after too many dribbles but sometimes I feel like they are trying to do too much.

Giovinco personally blamed himself for the lack of a win yesterday which lends credence to the "offensively it's all up to me" mentality; although it also shows a certain amount of character to point the finger at oneself, while also praising and encouraging a young teammate (he said Babouli was the best player on the field for TFC yesterday). I think you can tell on the field that he enjoys playing with Mo more than he does with Endoh or Delgado who I have seen him chew out on several occasions for lack of service (with Endoh he often doesn't see the correct pass to make, while Delgado in terms of crossing ability suffers from Justin Morrow-disease). I think it is good that our young strikers are playing alongside the likes of Giovinco and Kaka, their smarts on the field should only get better as a result.

[Gian-Luca]

20 hours ago, Ivan said:

Is it just me or has Justin Morrow been horrible the last 2 games?

Offensively, yes. He kills the attack. I think he must be on an MLS record of 85 consecutive failed crossing attempts - the most you can hope for nowadays is that he wins a corner. He moves the ball to slowly and is slow with decisions. I am surprised no- one in the media has commented on this. On the other side of the field, right now I don't think Osorio and Beitashour have developed any chemistry as yet, though Osorio doesn't always play that spot.

[Ruffian]

Not sure if good or bad news

 

[TRM]

How could it be bad news that you get to keep the best player in the league for the Euro time frame?

[Keegan]

Good news in the short-term but long-term it's probably a hit to our chances of getting another player of Giovinco's calibre.  

A pretty big slap in the face to MLS, you can't imagine they're happy.  Giovinco contributing to a big team like Italy would have been a perfect story.  

[jpg75]

I'm sure Seba will cry himself to sleep tonight on top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies.

Guess this means i'll be cheering for Sweden when i watch them play Italy at the Euros.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Well I think that it is a respectable message: if you want to play for a top national team, you have to be a top player on a top team. And Gio isn't. Pirlo, also left off, isn't either. Thing is, Italy has not sent out this message consistently.

I could make the David Villa argument. He has great pace and works his butt off, and no doubt he could have a place for Spain, I believe it, he is the country's leader in strike rate. But he has never got a whiff since moving to MLS, because that is the decision he made. What I am saying is this: he knew that going to MLS would close the door for him, because Del Bosque was not going to look at him any more. End of story. Same with one of the leading scorers in Europe over the last 5 years, Soriano, who is at Red Bull Salzburg. From there you will never be called up for Spain even scoring at a similar rate to the best in Europe.

There are probably just 6-7 countries in the world able to do this, Italy is one.

It is not  snob thing, it is a simple filter. I happen to agree with it for those who can do it, and since MLS does not stop for Eurocup (and only partially for Copa) it is much better for TFC.

[yomurphy1]

58 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Well I think that it is a respectable message: if you want to play for a top national team, you have to be a top player on a top team. And Gio isn't. Pirlo, also left off, isn't either. Thing is, Italy has not sent out this message consistently.

I could make the David Villa argument. He has great pace and works his butt off, and no doubt he could have a place for Spain, I believe it, he is the country's leader in strike rate. But he has never got a whiff since moving to MLS, because that is the decision he made. What I am saying is this: he knew that going to MLS would close the door for him, because Del Bosque was not going to look at him any more. End of story. Same with one of the leading scorers in Europe over the last 5 years, Soriano, who is at Red Bull Salzburg. From there you will never be called up for Spain even scoring at a similar rate to the best in Europe.

There are probably just 6-7 countries in the world able to do this, Italy is one.

It is not  snob thing, it is a simple filter. I happen to agree with it for those who can do it, and since MLS does not stop for Eurocup (and only partially for Copa) it is much better for TFC.

I read the "simple filter" as laziness. Yes, the better quality league is indicative of individual player quality until its not and good scouting should pick out the exceptions.

That said, very happy as a TFC fan.

[Unnamed Trialist]

26 minutes ago, yomurphy1 said:

I read the "simple filter" as laziness. Yes, the better quality league is indicative of individual player quality until its not and good scouting should pick out the exceptions.

That said, very happy as a TFC fan.

It is not laziness. It is like asking for an MA or MBA before you hire someone you are going to train from top to bottom anyways. Unless you think asking for accreditation is lazy hiring policy.

The simple filter here is this: Giovinco, you think you are good enough for Italy? Then look for a contract somewhere where if you play well, it will be a sure demonstration it is true. Italy is strong enough to do this, in principle (actually Italy mids and backs scored more for their strikers in Eurocup qualilfiers). 

MLS goals, for a striker,  in the minds of some national team coaches, are not worth enough to justify taking the guy scoring them to a major competition.

[BearcatSA]

11 hours ago, Keegan said:

A pretty big slap in the face to MLS, you can't imagine they're happy.  Giovinco contributing to a big team like Italy would have been a perfect story.  

I wonder if the league would have been even more unhappy with the exclusion if Giovinco was playing in a big US market city?  

 

[Gian-Luca]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It is not laziness. It is like asking for an MA or MBA before you hire someone you are going to train from top to bottom anyways. Unless you think asking for accreditation is lazy hiring policy.

The simple filter here is this: Giovinco, you think you are good enough for Italy? Then look for a contract somewhere where if you play well, it will be a sure demonstration it is true. Italy is strong enough to do this, in principle (actually Italy mids and backs scored more for their strikers in Eurocup qualilfiers). 

MLS goals, for a striker,  in the minds of some national team coaches, are not worth enough to justify taking the guy scoring them to a major competition.

The thing is, it was Giovinco's performances in MLS which put him back on the Italian national team radar and earned him a re-call to the team just last October, and prior to that Conte lauded & defended Giovinco's decision to play here, saying it was the right decision, and spoke out against those who were critical about it. Giovinco played particularly well when called back to the Italian national team, setting up a couple of goals in limited minutes played off the bench. Conte also continued to call a past-his-prime Pirlo after he moved to MLS. Now apparently both players must "pay the consequences" of their decision to play in MLS:

http://www.football-italia.net/84852/conte-%E2%80%98i-spoke-pirlo%E2%80%99

This is quite the u-turn from 6 months ago when the very same MLS league was considered good enough. I wonder who or what changed his mind?

 

 

[shamrock]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

MLS goals, for a striker,  in the minds of some national team coaches, are not worth enough to justify taking the guy scoring them to a major competition.

No just like Eredivisie goals. Sure there's Suarez, but there's also Altidore. It will be anyones guess if they could perform with tougher resistance.  Wilfried Bony tore things up at Vitesse, but still had to prove himself at Swansea, before Man City got interested. 

[Ruffian]

There is likely some pressure from the Italian Football Federation to have their national team select players playing in Italy. When Ciro Immobile moved from Torino to Borussia Dortmund there was talk about Immobile not getting called the national team for moving away from Serie A even before he had a poor season there, and that is Bundesliga and Borussia Dortmund!

[BearcatSA]

On May 22, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Ivan said:

Is it just me or has Justin Morrow been horrible the last 2 games?

I've just finished watching this Crew game and both he and Beitashour were awful in their play on the ball.  Regarding Morrow, a couple of years ago I thought he had a poor stretch of matches but Nelly let him play out of his slump.  Under Vanney, I wonder if he is willing to give him a league match off to give Morgan a look (ditto, Bloom for Beitashour).

Edit:  since both FBs were booked yesterday, they maybe scheduled for a league enforced day off sooner than later.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ruffian said:

There is likely some pressure from the Italian Football Federation to have their national team select players playing in Italy. When Ciro Immobile moved from Torino to Borussia Dortmund there was talk about Immobile not getting called the national team for moving away from Serie A even before he had a poor season there, and that is Bundesliga and Borussia Dortmund!

In Spain some are criticizing Del Bosque for ignoring some players in EPL, so that seems to be a pattern. People especially think Bellerin deserved to be called in. 

As you are saying, it is the team manager who makes the decision, the level of the league may not always be a good argument. But at least it is an understandable argument.

TFC having Gio-depence is not a bad thing, as long as the team can win without him if and when the time comes. 

[Macksam]

He has called David Silva, Diego Costa,  Azpilacueta, Santi Cazorla and Jesus Navas right? If so, he should also consider Fabregas.

[rob.notenboom]

On May 23, 2016 at 0:00 PM, jpg75 said:

I'm sure Seba will cry himself to sleep tonight on top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies.

Guess this means i'll be cheering for Sweden when i watch them play Italy at the Euros.

It might also be on top of a pile of ladies with many beautiful bags of money.