2016 Red Team Playoff Clinching Watch (aka Toronto FC 2016 MLS season thread)

[Keegan]

As much as it hurts to see our guy left off though, Italy is right to not call him.  Calling him would send the wrong message to guys that they can go collect bags of money and dominate at a low level and be called.  

The same thing would happen if a guy like Jonathan Toews decided to go to the KHL for $.  

[Gian-Luca]

37 minutes ago, Keegan said:

As much as it hurts to see our guy left off though, Italy is right to not call him.  Calling him would send the wrong message to guys that they can go collect bags of money and dominate at a low level and be called.  

The same thing would happen if a guy like Jonathan Toews decided to go to the KHL for $.  

There is an actual hockey precedent for this when Bobby Hull signed with the WHA in 1972 and was left off the Canada roster for the Canada vs. Soviet Union 8 game series, which Canada only won with a last-minute goal. Few would have argued that leaving off Bobby Hull (and going with Dennis instead) was a wise move and four years later they realized their mistake and included Bobby Hull on the 1976 Canada Cup team even though he was still in the WHA.

Generally though, as a coach, you should be picking the best players that can make a team, and not be making decisions based on making political statements.

[Havoc88]

On 2016-05-24 at 11:53 AM, BearcatSA said:

I've just finished watching this Crew game and both he and Beitashour were awful in their play on the ball.  Regarding Morrow, a couple of years ago I thought he had a poor stretch of matches but Nelly let him play out of his slump.  Under Vanney, I wonder if he is willing to give him a league match off to give Morgan a look (ditto, Bloom for Beitashour).

Edit:  since both FBs were booked yesterday, they maybe scheduled for a league enforced day off sooner than later.

I'd advocate if Vanney wants to continue trying this 3-5-2 look - then make the CBs Morrow/Moor/Williams and use Morgan and Delgado as your wingbacks. To me, this makes way more sense - keep Morrow in a role that is his strength (defending) and Morgan as well (overlap/crossing). Delgado has experience at RB and can also attack, so I'd be intrigued to see if this crosses his mind.

[BearcatSA]

22 minutes ago, Havoc88 said:

I'd advocate if Vanney wants to continue trying this 3-5-2 look - then make the CBs Morrow/Moor/Williams and use Morgan and Delgado as your wingbacks. To me, this makes way more sense - keep Morrow in a role that is his strength (defending) and Morgan as well (overlap/crossing). Delgado has experience at RB and can also attack, so I'd be intrigued to see if this crosses his mind.

I think this formation is more of a one off, with the team going back to a four man back line asap.  I'm more curious to see if Williams continues to keep his starting place ahead of Perquis. 

[Ruffian]

5 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I'm more curious to see if Williams continues to keep his starting place ahead of Perquis. 

I think they were just resting Perquis.

[BearcatSA]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Ruffian said:

I think they were just resting Perquis.

He needed two games to rest?

[AvroArrow]

I was at the game and the performance of the team improved remarkably when they abandoned their 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 (to me it looked more like the former) and went back to having 4 at the back.

[BearcatSA]

2 minutes ago, AvroArrow said:

I was at the game and the performance of the team improved remarkably when they abandoned their 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 (to me it looked more like the former) and went back to having 4 at the back.

It looked the former to me because neither FB is strong in the offensive side of the game and they both were poor with giveaways.  It felt like there were five defenders out there.

[to70]

It definitely was 5-3-2. Brought memories of Preki ball back

[gator]

I thought it looked more of a 3 man backline and a little scary one at that, Morrow was well advanced most of his time on the pitch and as others have noted, he was very poor!

[to70]

There was no difference in positioning for Morrow and Beitashour from previous games. To me it looked like Zavaletta and Williams were getting in each others way. Have to agree that Morrow's play is at least a step down from last year

[Havoc88]

45 minutes ago, to70 said:

There was no difference in positioning for Morrow and Beitashour from previous games. To me it looked like Zavaletta and Williams were getting in each others way. Have to agree that Morrow's play is at least a step down from last year

? There absolutely was. Both players, when the ball was at the opposite side of field, were well advanced and pushed up to the 18 at times while the 3 CBs were hovering around the half. In fact, IIRC there was one instance where Morrow was the furthest up the field wide open but Johnson missed him completely and switched to the other side of the field. The first road games we were playing an almost flat back four with Morrow and Beita hardly advancing like we've seen of late.

[BearcatSA]

4 minutes ago, Havoc88 said:

? There absolutely was. Both players, when the ball was at the opposite side of field, were well advanced and pushed up to the 18 at times while the 3 CBs were hovering around the half.

And both players' offensive limitations were on display.  None of the four bona fide fullbacks on the roster have the skillset needed to provide the wing service required for that position

[Havoc88]

7 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

And both players' offensive limitations were on display.  None of the four bona fide fullbacks on the roster have the skillset needed to provide the wing service required for that position

I don't disagree at all. If we do this 'experiment' again, I'd rather see Morgan in that role and Morrow as one of the 3 CBs.

Added to my previous post - when Giovinco was unlocked for that 1v1 he  missed - Babouli had two options in front of him to pass to - Giovinco and Morrow!

[BearcatSA]

7 minutes ago, Havoc88 said:

I don't disagree at all. If we do this 'experiment' again, I'd rather see Morgan in that role and Morrow as one of the 3 CBs.

Morgan definitely has a good cross when he makes the space on the overlap but pace in 1 v 1 attacking is his sole stock in trade so I don't think he'd be much more successful in an advanced position with less space against a competent defender. 

With the current fullbacks available, I think this tactic should go into the back of the playbook.  

[Free kick]

On May 25, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Gian-Luca said:

There is an actual hockey precedent for this when Bobby Hull signed with the WHA in 1972 and was left off the 

Generally though, as a coach, you should be picking the best players that can make a team, and not be making decisions based on making political statements.

Yes,. The reason Bobby Hull was left off was for purely business reasons or, more accurately, related to business competition.  The NHL hated the WHA.  It had nothing to do with winning or making the team better.

interesting comments last week from Laurent Ciman in relation to MLS's competitiveness and strength.   There is no doubt in his mind that it's stronger than than the Belgian league.   I wonder if Giovinco would have been left off if he was tearing it up in Belgium

[Blackdude]

6 hours ago, Free kick said:

interesting comments last week from Laurent Ciman in relation to MLS's competitiveness and strength.   There is no doubt in his mind that it's stronger than than the Belgian league.   I wonder if Giovinco would have been left off if he was tearing it up in Belgium

He would have been left off. Unless you play at a massive club in Spain, Germany or England, I don't think that you can make Italy if you're playing abroad. 

[jpg75]

12 hours ago, Free kick said:

interesting comments last week from Laurent Ciman in relation to MLS's competitiveness and strength.   There is no doubt in his mind that it's stronger than than the Belgian league.

LC: "Hey MLS, you're soooo much bigger than my ex..."

MLS: "Oh yeah Laurent? Don't stop, tell me more..."

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Blackdude said:

He would have been left off. Unless you play at a massive club in Spain, Germany or England, I don't think that you can make Italy if you're playing abroad. 

Italy has not called anyone playing anywhere near the level of Belgium. Nor England, Germany, Spain.

I think if you had a young guy you might think could help the group, coming off a great season on a top club in a lower league, then you could call him up, but only then....geez, this almost describes Gio...

[Blackdude]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Italy has not called anyone playing anywhere near the level of Belgium. Nor England, Germany, Spain.

Matteo Darmian, Angelo Ogbonna, Graziano Pellè. Plus 2 PSG guys (Sirigu & Motta) are at near that England, Germany, Spain level. 

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Ogbonna had a great season at West Ham. His goal against Liverpool in the cup was one of my highlights of this past season. 

[Free kick]

7 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Matteo Darmian, Angelo Ogbonna, Graziano Pellè. Plus 2 PSG guys (Sirigu & Motta) are at near that England, Germany, Spain level. 

I was going to bring up the example of Pelle (Sunderland) yesterday and post it here.  

Sunderland escaped the drop zone by the narrowest of margins.  He wasn't in the top 10 as far scoring.  Even Jermaine Defoe was more productive.  More and more it looks like these decisions are not entirely based on rationality but perhaps there is a bit of the NHL versus WHA kind of thinking involved in it.

 

[AvroArrow]

I think the "quality of the league" a person is playing in can really only be used for fringe or bubble players when it comes to the the roster.  If Ronaldo signed for the LA Galaxy tomorrow, would Portugal drop him?  Unlikely.  If I'm a coach and I have to pick between two players that I deem to be interchangeable, I'm likely going to go with the one that plays at the higher level because I know that he faces a tougher level of competition each week.   20 goals in MLS and 20 goals in Serie A are two entirely different accomplishments.

On a purely selfish level, I'm glad Giovinco did not get called because TFC would be in a very tough spot without him, and as I said earlier,  a win midseason is worth just as many points as a win in the last week.

[masster]

9 hours ago, Blackdude said:

Matteo Darmian, Angelo Ogbonna, Graziano Pellè. Plus 2 PSG guys (Sirigu & Motta) are at near that England, Germany, Spain level. 

What he is saying is that England, Germany and Spain, along with Italy would never call up somebody from league the level of Belgium.

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 hours ago, masster said:

What he is saying is that England, Germany and Spain, along with Italy would never call up somebody from league the level of Belgium.

masster is the only one who understands me on this board--and I am usually crystal clear.

It would be interesting to take squads for Eurocup and rate them overall by adding up the UEFA club coefficient of all the players. Interesting, I say...no frigging way I am going to do this, but someone here surely has the time....?