Luc de Fougerolles

[InglewoodJack]

My hopeful thinking re seeing LDF play is that they can’t possibly play Vitoria two 90s back to back especially considering how shaky he looked at times against Jamaica. They’ll start Cornelius, and under the assumption that at least one CB gets subbed off, that leaves LDF as the number one choice off the bench.

I’m less convinced now that we’ll see him at all than I was a week ago, but we’ve set the stage well to allow Biello to give him a shot. If we find ourselves up by 2 at any point, you’d think it’s over. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 pages on a guy who has not played a minute for Canada. 

Frankly I have rarely read so much hype, histrionics and garbage about a potential CMNT player. Especially some of the comparisons, which for the most part have been ridiculously overstated.

At his age there is absolutely no way of knowing he'll pan out, give him a bit of time, a bit of space, and let's hope we can cap him with the tie in the bag with 10-15 minutes left. If only to ensure he can continue growing with us as he grows with his club. 

[dyslexic nam]

39 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Then he'll play because "we'll have it in the bag".😁

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

21 pages on a guy who has not played a minute for Canada. 

Frankly I have rarely read so much hype, histrionics and garbage about a potential CMNT player. Especially some of the comparisons, which for the most part have been ridiculously overstated.

At his age there is absolutely no way of knowing he'll pan out, give him a bit of time, a bit of space, and let's hope we can cap him with the tie in the bag with 10-15 minutes left. If only to ensure he can continue growing with us as he grows with his club. 

How many pages in the Koleosho thread?

Man, if only LDF played for Espanyol and not Fulham, then all this hype would have been justified. 

[Free kick]

26 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

21 pages on a guy who has not played a minute for Canada. 

Frankly I have rarely read so much hype, histrionics and garbage about a potential CMNT player. Especially some of the comparisons, which for the most part have been ridiculously overstated.

At his age there is absolutely no way of knowing he'll pan out, give him a bit of time, a bit of space, and let's hope we can cap him with the tie in the bag with 10-15 minutes left. If only to ensure he can continue growing with us as he grows with his club. 

I blame this (in part) to the fact that the topic format in this thread or forum changed from being stories related to Player centric.   There are a dozen or so players who deserve their own thread (i.e.: Phonzie, David, TB..etc).  As for the other topics it should be story related or issue related.  It use to be that this kind of stuff would end all end up in a catch all thread called MOACA.   That way,  you can ignore most of the time.  

Today,  if you come across an interesting story to share,  you don't know where to put it.  And, unlike the past,  you are reluctant to start a new thread for that story.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Free kick

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

How many pages in the Koleosho thread?

Man, if only LDF played for Espanyol and not Fulham, then all this hype would have been justified. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

How many pages in the Koleosho thread?

Man, if only LDF played for Espanyol and not Fulham, then all this hype would have been justified. 

To be fair, Koleosho has been starting regularly for an EPL side at just 19. 

[narduch]

Just now, DeRo_Is_King said:

To be fair, Koleosho has been starting regularly for an EPL side at just 19. 

And has made La Liga appearances too.

So far LDF had played one Cup game.

I think someone on this thread called him our most accomplished CB ever for that lol.

[Free kick]

17 minutes ago, Obinna said:

How many pages in the Koleosho thread?

Man, if only LDF played for Espanyol and not Fulham, then all this hype would have been justified. 

The Koleosho is an interesting one.   And it illustrates perfectly the problem I talked about above.   When I started seeing the Koleosho thread, my mind was conditioned to think:   "Well here we go again?"  more overhype over nothing.   But,  through my own reading and stumbling across independent stories,  I have come to realize that that is a prospect with a pedigree and confirmed credible attestations.   So he actually worth following.   But because of the hundreds of others that appear on here or have appeared on here (with mediocre pedigrees) and that dont warrant the overhype,  I became conditioned to tune it out.  

Edited November 20, 2023 by Free kick

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 minutes ago, Obinna said:

How many pages in the Koleosho thread?

Man, if only LDF played for Espanyol and not Fulham, then all this hype would have been justified. 

It is not entirely comparable, despite having the similar name, because we've hardly gotten any news from him at the club. So the hype for him is not corresponded with posters here showing much interest in his day to day. 

So I am agreeing, but where are the posters to do this for us? I have no idea for example if he is ever sent to the reserves or u-23s for minutes. Maybe I am wrong, sifting through it all.

At least a few of us tried to do this for Koleosho at Espanyol, and when he was still coming to Canada camps and we had some reason for optimism. So thanks for the unintended complement for us, which also seems like a slight to those not reporting diligently on LDF at his club.

Anyways, it also not comparable because Koleosho at the same age had more significant minutes for top flight Espanyol than LDF at Fulham. He was a better prospect, as his transfer to EPL and minutes at his age proves, and his movement inside the Italy system.

And Espanyol is a better team; unlike Fulham, they have trophies (4 Cups, two this century), they've played 2 European finals to Fulham's one, they have a bigger stadium and a larger fan base, comparably they are a far higher level: only five teams in Spain have spent more seasons in top flight, only six have more overall league points. Being an Espanyol prospect is better than being a Fulham prospect.

The only thing that I appreciate justifies the interest in Luc is that we are starved for new talent at CB, where with Luca we are not needy at all at attacking wing.

[InglewoodJack]

Let’s not pretend Koleosho playing garbage time a handful of times is any more significant than LDF playing a single cup game. Neither mean much. This is a discussion board about a team that plays at absolute most like 10 or so games per calendar year. Everything that is mentioned here is hypothetical. No clue why it’s surprising that people are talking about the one dual national who actually looks relatively interested in playing for us, even though he doesn’t have much of a pro career yet. 
 

I mean fuck, there are dozens and dozens of pages about the U17 squad knowing full well that 75% of those kids have zero future in the sport and of the ones who do, we’ll be lucky if even two or three teach become good enough for our national team, let alone elevate it. 
 

Threads about hypothetical players and their potential is a big part of following this team. If that wasn’t the case, we have about 4 players in our program who are where we want them to be; everyone else is to some extent or another a prospect we’re hopecasting our expectations onto.

6 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

And Espanyol is a better team; unlike Fulham, they have trophies (4 Cups, two this century), they've played 2 European finals to Fulham's one, they have a bigger stadium and a larger fan base, comparably they are a far higher level: only five teams in Spain have spent more seasons in top flight, only six have more overall league points. Being an Espanyol prospect is better than being a Fulham prospect.

Fulham is a premier league team, Espanyol is a LaLiga2 team. They were a terrible LaLiga team last year. Accolades and trophies are great, but to the prospects, they mean nothing since you’re only as good as the team you’re currently playing for. If being an Espanyol prospect was better than being a Fulham prospect, Koleosho would not have left for Burnley this summer. 

[Obinna]

24 minutes ago, Free kick said:

The Koleosho is an interesting one.   And it illustrates perfectly the problem I talked about above.   When I started seeing the Koleosho thread, my mind was conditioned to think:   "Well here we go again?"  more overhype over nothing.   But,  through my own reading and stumbling across independent stories,  I have come to realize that that is a prospect with a pedigree and confirmed credible attestations.   So he actually worth following.   But because of the hundreds of others that appear on here or have appeared on here (with mediocre pedigrees) and that dont warrant the overhype,  I became conditioned to tune it out.  

Funny enough, some American fans are calling him overhyped now, but their expectation and our expectation are different.

The issue for them is that although he is playing and starting in EPL, he is not scoring or assisting much for what amounts to a Championship level team. That makes him a nice to have prospect for them (and a significant prospect for us). 

If he does go with them, the moment he commits they'll probably change their tune about him being overhyped. I suspect they are saying that because he won't play for them. 

 

[El Hombre]

Egads!  Why are all these discussions happening on a discussion board?!?!?

[El Hombre]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

The issue for them is that although he is playing and starting in EPL, he is not scoring or assisting much for what amounts to a Championship level team.

So, he's a poor man's Liam Millar?

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Fulham is a premier league team, Espanyol is a LaLiga2 team. They were a terrible LaLiga team last year. Accolades and trophies are great, but to the prospects, they mean nothing since you’re only as good as the team you’re currently playing for. If being an Espanyol prospect was better than being a Fulham prospect, Koleosho would not have left for Burnley this summer. 

But Koleosho never played for Espanyol in 2nd division, the argument makes no sense to me.

He played League minutes in top flight in the 21-22 season, and if he hadn't had that long-term injury Sept 22-Jan 23, he would have played even more last season.

And could well have played for Canada last fall if it had not been for that ankle injury, he was at our Vienna camp. 

Anyways, we are not talking about Espanyol this year, we are talking overall. Overall they have spent 87 of the last 93 seasons in top flight (Spanish league begins in current form in 1929). There is absolutely no comparison as a club, unless having Lady Di's "father-in-law" as owner tips the scales for you. 

A better prospect, at multiple Canada camps, at a better club, justifies our interest. Which is not to say that if LDF can move through and up he'd be a great addition to our NT, and recognizing, in the current state of youth rising high, that it is harder for a young CB or keeper than for other positions.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Funny enough, some American fans are calling him overhyped now, but their expectation and our expectation are different.

The issue for them is that although he is playing and starting in EPL, he is not scoring or assisting much for what amounts to a Championship level team. That makes him a nice to have prospect for them (and a significant prospect for us). 

If he does go with them, the moment he commits they'll probably change their tune about him being overhyped. I suspect they are saying that because he won't play for them. 

It's true his effectiveness is low, but the team is a mess, you can't blame kids for what the adults around you aren't doing.

Which is what I posted above about LDF, in what I thought was a reasonable post about balancing expectations for youth that got some posters backs up. You can't bring him into Canada and give him minutes in a formula for failure, you have to do it to assist his success. 

I literally posted this an hour ago, but the England fan boys got all upset by my questioning 27 pages for him.

"At his age there is absolutely no way of knowing he'll pan out, give him a bit of time, a bit of space, and let's hope we can cap him with the tie in the bag with 10-15 minutes left. If only to ensure he can continue growing with us as he grows with his club."

[jdcyantsis]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Anyways, it also not comparable because Koleosho at the same age had more significant minutes for top flight Espanyol than LDF at Fulham. 

Koleosho is 13 months older than LDF so this really is just not true. Luca made his first team appearances all at the tail end of last season (granted you can point to injury). He played 55 minutes in La Liga, and 21 in Copa del Rey. Luc has played 90 minutes in the EFL Cup for Fulham already this season and it is yet to be seen how many (if any) minutes he will get the remainder of the season. Luc has already played more first team minutes than Luca did, granted not more top flight minutes as of yet (which he has the rest of the season to catchup on).

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, jdcyantsis said:

Koleosho is 13 months older than LDF so this really is just not true. Luca made his first team appearances all at the tail end of last season (granted you can point to injury). He played 55 minutes in La Liga, and 21 in Copa del Rey. Luc has played 90 minutes in the EFL Cup for Fulham already this season and it is yet to be seen how many (if any) minutes he will get the remainder of the season. Luc has already played more first team minutes than Luca did, granted not more top flight minutes as of yet (which he has the rest of the season to catchup on).

Moreover, he's a defensive player which is all the more impressive, as those tend to break through later. 

I am not saying LDF is a better or worse prospect, nor am I saying he's our best CB (kind of a silly claim). I do think he'll play off the bench tomorrow if things go well. That could be the start of a long NT career given Vitoria is aging out. 

And the NT experience ....that may push him along at club level too. 

[InglewoodJack]

15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But Koleosho never played for Espanyol in 2nd division, the argument makes no sense to me.

He played League minutes in top flight in the 21-22 season, and if he hadn't had that long-term injury Sept 22-Jan 23, he would have played even more last season.

And could well have played for Canada last fall if it had not been for that ankle injury, he was at our Vienna camp. 

Anyways, we are not talking about Espanyol this year, we are talking overall. Overall they have spent 87 of the last 93 seasons in top flight (Spanish league begins in current form in 1929). There is absolutely no comparison as a club, unless having Lady Di's "father-in-law" as owner tips the scales for you. 

A better prospect, at multiple Canada camps, at a better club, justifies our interest. Which is not to say that if LDF can move through and up he'd be a great addition to our NT, and recognizing, in the current state of youth rising high, that it is harder for a young CB or keeper than for other positions.

But even last year, Espanyol were putrid, and even then Koleosho was not playing very much. In terms of the better club, Fulham’s current player valuation is £300M and the highest espanyol’s roster has ever been worth during Koleosho’s tenure has been £130M. Fulham spends nearly 3 times more on players. My point isn’t to denigrate their club or LK as a player, just that the margin between a smaller LaLiga team and a small (I guess?) EPL club and players playing sparingly for either is negligible at this point since it’s not like either player had a Lamal or Gavi-esque start to their career where they instantly became playable, important players. 
 

We can argue the value of a cup of coffee in LaLiga vs a start in the EFL cup and apparently being one of the best CB prospects in England, but the reality is neither mean much in terms of guaranteed future success, so at this point, I’m more interested in discussing the best scenarios with the players more likely to play for us. I was never this confident that Koleosho would choose us. Seeing how he hasn’t even shown public interest in representing the US, I don’t think Canada was in his plans beyond a good way to up his stock, which I think it did, to the extent that Italy started taking him more seriously as a prospect they should warm up to. 

[Ottawafan]

LDF has shown more interest in Canada than Koleosho ever did.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

And has made La Liga appearances too.

So far LDF had played one Cup game.

I think someone on this thread called him our most accomplished CB ever for that lol.

Pretty sure the post was "accomplished more than Vitoria, Miller and Johnston at 18 by being on the bench for an EPL team".  Very different. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

14 minutes ago, costarg said:

Pretty sure the post was "accomplished more than Vitoria, Miller and Johnston at 18 by being on the bench for an EPL team".  Very different. 

Still really silly, to be fair.

 

But I am just glad we can have these extensive arguments 

Because it shows:

1) Some people care about this.  I am pretty starved for people to talk football with in the meat space these days.

2) Luc is still in the frame to... eventually...fill an important hole in our squad and hopefully the starting 11.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

But even last year, Espanyol were putrid, and even then Koleosho was not playing very much. In terms of the better club, Fulham’s current player valuation is £300M and the highest espanyol’s roster has ever been worth during Koleosho’s tenure has been £130M. Fulham spends nearly 3 times more on players. My point isn’t to denigrate their club or LK as a player, just that the margin between a smaller LaLiga team and a small (I guess?) EPL club and players playing sparingly for either is negligible at this point since it’s not like either player had a Lamal or Gavi-esque start to their career where they instantly became playable, important players. 
 

We can argue the value of a cup of coffee in LaLiga vs a start in the EFL cup and apparently being one of the best CB prospects in England, but the reality is neither mean much in terms of guaranteed future success, so at this point, I’m more interested in discussing the best scenarios with the players more likely to play for us. I was never this confident that Koleosho would choose us. Seeing how he hasn’t even shown public interest in representing the US, I don’t think Canada was in his plans beyond a good way to up his stock, which I think it did, to the extent that Italy started taking him more seriously as a prospect they should warm up to. 

I appreciate the idea behind the roster value argument is to decree, for example, that Manchester United and Newcastle go automatically to the Round of 16 in Champions League, because of their roster value. Despite being dead last in their groups. 

But if that is what we are arguing we are following different sports.

Same as if Mexico don't qualify for Copa America. I don't know about others here, some of us are  bracing ourselves for Concacaf decreeing they get to go for financial reasons. Or do we pull out the Transfermarkt roster value or similar financial argument and give them a spot regardless?

 

 

 

[InglewoodJack]

4 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I appreciate the idea behind the roster value argument is to decree, for example, that Manchester United and Newcastle go automatically to the Round of 16 in Champions League, because of their roster value. Despite being dead last in their groups. 

But if that is what we are arguing we are following different sports.

Same as if Mexico don't qualify for Copa America. I don't know about others here, some of us are  bracing ourselves for Concacaf decreeing they get to go for financial reasons. Or do we pull out the Transfermarkt roster value or similar financial argument and give them a spot regardless?

 

 

 

Roster values aren’t the be all end all- I think we can use context in cases like how Canada’s roster is €203M vs. Mexico’s €204M (interesting how close it is) because 60% of our roster value is tied up in two players while Mexico’s is more spread out, David is probably overvalued, Giminez is undervalued, so on, but when we’re comparing one club whose value is well over double the other’s, that says something. It isn’t like Fulham has a €120 man and a bunch of middling scrubs or anything. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Roster values aren’t the be all end all- I think we can use context in cases like how Canada’s roster is €203M vs. Mexico’s €204M (interesting how close it is) because 60% of our roster value is tied up in two players while Mexico’s is more spread out, David is probably overvalued, Giminez is undervalued, so on, but when we’re comparing one club whose value is well over double the other’s, that says something. It isn’t like Fulham has a €120 man and a bunch of middling scrubs or anything. 

Fulham have a lot of decent players or players that are brilliant in fits and spurts - Wilson, Traore, Iwobi , Pereira, Castagne etc.

They are have a few old players that they rely on with no transfer value - Willian and Ream for instance  - and Bobby Reid would be worth more he wasn't 30 already. 

Palhinha is extremely good at what he does and valued for it and Jedi Robinson has a few problems but is developing late.

I think a lot of their relative success comes from being well-managed.

 

But for the purposes of this thread, we need to be honest, they are pretty thin in quality centre backs.  Diop has an almighty ricket in him and he is valued the highest (and is currently injured to boot). Bassey seemed okay when I saw him and maybe still setting in but does not look like saving that position.  Adarabioyo seemed pretty forgettable and has hardly played this year.

There are reasons Luc is getting chances. Here's hoping he takes them with both hands.

Edited November 20, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford