RS Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 59 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said: UofT has been left out of this tale They were derailed by NIMBYs, but you're right. There was a stadium planned at the Varsity site that would've had the same arrangement with MLSE that BMO Field has now. It would've been the perfect location for a stadium, although it would've almost certainly remained artificial turf as it would've been used by UofT's teams in addition to the CSA, TFC and Argos. Joe MacCarthy and Free kick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 23 minutes ago, narduch said: The bottom line is the Tim Leiwicke/MLSE lied to soccer fans when they said we would never even notice the Argos were playing at BMO Field. And now TFC and Canada's soccer teams suffer for that stupid decision. No real Canadian soccer fan should be happy with the current arrangement. I will never forget after the TFC supporters groups did their protests, no singing or chanting for a half, No Argos at BMO banners and all and things calmed down a bit Tim Leiwicke figured everything was now cool and came into 113 our U-Sector section with a tray of beer to appease the fans! The only problem was not everyone was over it, some chanted "you f##### liar" and one fan took it upon herself to dump one of the beers from the peace offering all over Tim's nice new suit, I don't condone that but he surely made a bad miscalculation! narduch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 minute ago, RS said: They were derailed by NIMBYs, but you're right. There was a stadium planned at the Varsity site that would've had the same arrangement with MLSE that BMO Field has now. It would've been the perfect location for a stadium, although it would've almost certainly remained artificial turf as it would've been used by UofT's teams in addition to the CSA, TFC and Argos. Yup, and here's why it didn't happen, before people get all revisionist. Brick by brick The Argos' stadium deal ... PERRY LEFKO -- Toronto Sun 11/4/2004 On the morning of Sept. 29, the first-year owners of the Argonauts were summoned to the University of Toronto for a meeting that would forever change the future of the football club. It would be the latest meeting -- and, as it turned out, the last -- in the plans to build a $70-million football/soccer stadium on the hallowed Varsity grounds. No sooner had the Argos owners met the U of T's new interim president than they were told the school had decided to discontinue plans to build the facility. Howard Cynamon and David Sokolowski looked at one another utterly speechless, completely caught off guard. As Cynamon recalled, it was like being hit by a stun gun. Originally announced as a 25,000-seat stadium, the design had been shrunk by about 5,000 because of traffic and noise concerns from the neighbourhood and factions within the school. But there had been no indications-- at least to the Argos owners -- that the U of T planned to drop the stadium ball. The meeting continued for another 60 to 90 minutes, during which Cynamon and Sokolowski made a proposal to personally add an extra $14 million to the rising cost of the project and cover any subsequent overruns. "They said they would take 24 to 48 hours to think about that," Sokolowski recalled. "We thought the 48 hours would give us and the school the opportunity to sit down and assess our proposal further." Cynamon and Sokolowski left the meeting and spent a couple of hours outside in the parking lot, watching a girls soccer game and wondering what had just happened. All the while, the university executive continued to talk about the project and, as it turned out, peer out the window at Sokolowski and Cynamon. And then it happened. The U of T called an audible. U of T's vice-president and chief advancement officer, Jon Dellandrea, approached the Argos owners and indicated the university had reconsidered and decided to formally withdraw from the project. While Dellandrea could not be reached for comment, Sokolowski said he had been told by the school official that there were people in the university who felt that, regardless of the cost of the project, it was inappropriate to have a private/public relationship with the Argonauts. Moreover, there had also been serious concerns by residents in the area. Dellandrea told Sokolowski and Cynamon the school planned to announce its withdrawal with a press release the following morning, although the story already was being leaked. "It was like you just got up from a beating and somebody kicks you in the head again," Cynamon said. "At that point our hearts were ripped out of our bodies." "We were also told this was going to have (the U of T) governing council vote (in December)," Sokolowski said. "It never even got to the committee on the way to the governing council. It was pulled before it even got into the process. For whatever reason the university decided it was too much pressure or they didn't want to be associated with the Toronto Argonauts and the Canadian Football League; that it felt the business model wasn't strong enough." Cynamon and Sokolowski had to gather their emotions and be at the SkyDome a couple hours later to watch their team play host to the Calgary Stampeders. "We got to the game, but frankly I couldn't even tell you what happened," Cynamon said. "It was a haze. It was a cloud. I think we were trying to cover up with our bad acting that something was wrong. I don't remember who I saw that night. I don't remember what I said. That was really a bad moment." The Argos beat the Stamps 49-22. --- After U of T withdrew, the Argos owners called Kevan Pipe, the Canadian Soccer Association's chief operating officer. The federal and provincial governments agreed earlier in the year to pay a combined $35 million toward the cost of the project if the CSA secured the rights to the World Youth Championship. That happened in July. Pipe was in Toronto, preparing for his own meeting with the U of T the following morning, when the Argos owners called. "I was pretty shocked," Pipe said. "It came totally out of the blue. We heard there were some rising costs, but we had already met with the architects to look at some solutions to contain some of those costs and those solutions had been reached." The next day Pipe made a call to FIFA, the world governing body of soccer, to make sure the setback would not jeopardize Canada's chances of playing host to the soccer championship. FIFA indicated its desire to keep the tournament in Canada and to give the CSA additional time to work out the stadium dilemma. --- Because Sokolowski and Cynamon had vowed to build a stadium, they had to devise a quick change in strategy and go to the hurry-up offence. While the U of T issued a press release explaining its decision to back away from the project because of escalating costs -- an idea Cynamon denied quite emotionally in a radio interview -- the plan to shift to an alternative stadium site already had begun. Sokolowski phoned York University's chairman of the board, Marshall (Mickey) Cohen. The two had known one another from a previous deal Sokolowski's company, Tribute Communities, entered into with the university to build 400 homes on the perimeter of the school's property. In the summer of 2003, when Sokolowski's name started to surface as a potential buyer of the Argos, Cohen called him wondering if it was true. When Sokolowski confirmed it, Cohen told him the team needed its own stadium and that York had plans to build one for its own needs, so it could be a perfect fit for both parties. Sokolowski agreed, but the stadium project shifted back to U of T when Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. suddenly jumped into the mix in December of 2003 with intentions to partner with the school on a multiple sports complex/shopping centre in the Bloor/Devonshire corridor. The Argos had no choice but to watch those developments because they potentially would be included at some point, possibly with MLSEL buying a percentage of the team. Some three months later, MLSEL withdrew from the project because of the low return on investment and the Argos, along with the CSA, joined together in resurrecting the project at the U of T. Now, following various twists and turns at the U of T, Sokolowski wanted to know if York still had an interest in building a stadium. "So, you want your old room back?" Cohen jokingly asked Sokolowski. --- Enter Joe Volpe, the federal minister responsible for Ontario and the Greater Toronto Area. For the $27 million federal government funding to continue to be part of the project, it required a partnership with a public institution. Exhibition Place, which had long been mentioned as a possible site by both the Argos and the CSA, was owned by the province and municipally operated by the City of Toronto. The city could supply land on the site but couldn't provide any funding. Volpe said Toronto Mayor David Miller had called him earlier in the year indicating his preference for Varsity over the Ex. In fact, according to Volpe, Miller said the Ex "was just completely out of the picture." So Volpe focused his attention on York after the failed Varsity project and contacted the school's president Dr. Lorna Marsden. York had a group of executives already talking internally about the stadium project, but wasn't prepared to move forward without government support. Coincidentally, Marsden happened to be in Ottawa when Volpe contacted her and the two continued their discussion. Marsden indicated York's desire to make the project happen. Volpe also spoke to the mayor of Vaughan, North York councillors, federal cabinet ministers, GTA caucus colleagues and the CSA to gauge whether they were interested in maintaining the project. He received a positive endorsement from everyone. --- On Oct. 3, Sokolowski, Cynamon and their business manager huddled at York with its vice-president of finance, Gary Brewer, and a representative of Capital Canada, a consultant/financial house engaged by the university to help out with negotiations and provide advice. The meeting took a few hours during which the financial splits of the deal were discussed along with a concept -- provided by the Argos -- of how the stadium would be built and operated so that it physically and culturally reflect the university's needs and realities. Following phone and e-mail exchanges, the parties met three days later in the offices of Capital Canada and banged out the broader terms of the deal. FINAL PARTICULARS On Oct. 11 -- Thanksgiving Day -- York officials and the Argos put together the final particulars of the deal so it could be presented to York's 32-member board of directors. The deal consisted of the federal and provincial governments contributing $35 million, the university adding $15 million and the Argos covering the balance of the projected $70-million stadium. A conference call was set up for Oct. 13 at 8 a.m. Some 20 board members were rounded up on the short notice and Brewer took them through the terms of the deal. The call lasted about an hour. "The board asked all the right due-diligence questions and were absolutely unanimous in their enthusiasm -- students, staff, faculty, external governors," Marsden said. "They gave me permission to go ahead and make the deal on those terms." Marsden called Volpe and indicated unanimous support for the project from the university's governors. Miller also was briefed. On Oct. 15, York officials issued a press release indicating an important announcement at the school on Oct. 18. By this time, the word was out that the deal was done. --- It took only 11 business days to do the deal, but the seeds were sown long before that because of the Argos' relations with York and the co-operation of the CSA. But it was Volpe who proved to be a key pointman. Volpe expressed the importance of making the deal happen at York or the government would remove its financial support. "I just told everybody 'listen, if you guys aren't in, we're not in. Period,' " Volpe said. "It's a big slap in the face to everybody, it's a big black eye for Canada if this thing doesn't go. But we're not in the business of shoving money down anybody's throat. We're in the business of investing for Canada and Canadians, and if private interest, public interest, academic interest don't see the value in this, why should we?" Had negotiations taken too long it could have added excess delays to the building process, which would have impacted on the completion of the stadium in time for the soccer championships. "They didn't have as elaborate a process as the University of Toronto," Volpe said. "But it needed to be done quickly otherwise the whole thing would have gone up in smoke." "It tells you how far along we were with York when we chose U of T," Cynamon said. "We had a deal we could have announced the same day with York. We were that close. "We just picked the wrong date." ted, Jedi Ram, Diego and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said: So is that the same David Miller under whose watch the stadium design was fast tracked to not be ready for CFL when minutes of city meetings clearly stated the opposite. If there is "damage" it is because of poor scheduling, because we have the proof (as I have posted about a million times) that soccer is (contrary to popular myth) more destructive to turf (especially reinforced turf) than football. Miller is one of the main reasons the stadium even exists at all. And he actually attends matches too. I saw him at the Honduras match. And the part about soccer wrecking the field worse than grid iron is laughable. I hope the field will be in good shape for the Panama match but with the Argos playing tomorrow I'm not expecting it to be. Jedi Ram, gator and Free kick 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 minute ago, narduch said: And the part about soccer wrecking the field worse than grid iron is laughable. You were already schooled on this before, do we have to go through it again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Could you guys take the ‘no Argos at BMO’ discussion to an appropriate topic thread? narduch, Ngravs, johnyb and 6 others 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said: You were already schooled on this before, do we have to go through it again? You are a joke The mods should have banned you for being a massive abusive asshole but never did. Edited October 5, 2021 by narduch Free kick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 So... back to Edmonton. I got a Holiday Inn Express for $76 a night. Seems to be some affordable accommodation out there. ted, Club Linesman, A_Gagne and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ngravs Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, admin said: So... back to Edmonton. I got a Holiday Inn Express for $76 a night. Seems to be some affordable accommodation out there. When can we expect tickets to be on sale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ngravs said: When can we expect tickets to be on sale? No word yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, admin said: So... back to Edmonton. I got a Holiday Inn Express for $76 a night. Seems to be some affordable accommodation out there. That's great Jamie, we are staying there as well! Club Linesman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Just now, narduch said: I'm only abusive to you because you are a giant fucking asshole who was never properly punished by the mods for all the asshole things you said in those debates back then. You are still wrong about the turf debate too. Cherry picking 1 guy that agrees with you doesn't change that. Actually no, there was an American college groundskeeper as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Just now, king1010 said: Think it was over a couple weeks. I didn't even say anything disrespectful. Sucked because I was a regular contributor there since 2006. ahh well. Was it Oldtimer that banned you? He is a fucking idiot and really shouldn't be a mod of any forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king1010 Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, narduch said: Was it Oldtimer that banned you? He is a fucking idiot and really shouldn't be a mod of any forum. I can't recall. I just logged back in and it says "you have been banned forever. duplicate accounts" lol I definitely didn't have two accounts. narduch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe MacCarthy Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 29 minutes ago, admin said: I got a Holiday Inn Express for $76 a night. Looks like you got a helluva deal. The last time I recall paying for a hotel myself (not work related) was $150 twenty some years ago. How did you find it, one of those services like Trivago? I don't know because my company has booked all my hotel stays. ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Take the Argos - BMO Field talk and personal insults elsewhere. Nate3322 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cblake Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said: Could you guys take the ‘no Argos at BMO’ discussion to an appropriate topic thread? The shipped has longed sailed on any notion of this discussion , at this point it has no place here. And now back to our regular scheduled programming ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaut Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Hi, should be coming up from Calgary with 15 or so. Mostly first timers. Looking forward to it. gator, Obinna, Greatest Cockney Rip Off and 12 others 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cblake Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 28 minutes ago, Beaut said: Hi, should be coming up from Calgary with 15 or so. Mostly first timers. Looking forward to it. That is great to hear, the more the merrier, it is becoming a reality that that place could be packed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerack Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Looks likely that I will be flying in from Toronto With a few people can’t wait Shway, dyslexic nam, rob.notenboom and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) A few people mentioned above (I’m not sure exactly where) that there might be some interest in a Voyageurs meetup on Nov 11th. I’ll look into it and arrange something. I’m hoping to be there on the 10th so I should be able to carve out some time on the evening of the 11th. I’ll aim for a downtown location. Might be 1strnd as they have been hosting Vs events for a while now. Would be great to connect with a bunch of the folks who are travelling in. Edited October 6, 2021 by rob.notenboom ted, Bikerack, Nate3322 and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ngravs Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 30 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said: A few people mentioned above (I’m not sure exactly where) that there might be some interest in a Voyageurs meetup on Nov 11th. I’ll look into it and arrange something. I’m hoping to be there on the 10th so I should be able to carve out some time on the evening of the 11th. I’ll aim for a downtown location. Might be 1strnd as they have been hosting Vs events for a while now. Would be great to connect with a bunch of the folks who are travelling in. So you're saying we're getting together and will be singing/drinking in your hotel room?! ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treppy2 Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Cblake said: That is great to hear, the more the merrier, it is becoming a reality that that place could be packed. For those attending this match, you’ll be visiting “Canada’s best sports venue” as recently announced: https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1113812/edmonton-commonwealth-stadium They list the criteria used for the rankings, but “ambient temperature in November” isn’t one of them! ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.notenboom Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Ngravs said: So you're saying we're getting together and will be singing/drinking in your hotel room?! Chuckle. Maybe. I’ll have a vaccine passport check station at the door. Club Linesman, Ngravs, Jedi Ram and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cblake Posted October 6, 2021 Share Posted October 6, 2021 6 hours ago, RS said: They were derailed by NIMBYs, but you're right. There was a stadium planned at the Varsity site that would've had the same arrangement with MLSE that BMO Field has now. It would've been the perfect location for a stadium, although it would've almost certainly remained artificial turf as it would've been used by UofT's teams in addition to the CSA, TFC and Argos. The death of the U of T project had nothing to do with the Argos or MLSE, it basically was changed when their president, Robert Birgeneau left to become the chancellor at Berkley. His successor felt it was in the best interest to develop a stadium project that would be in the best interest of the schools population at large not a pro football team or soccer., thus the Varsity Centre was built. ted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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