WCQ: Canada vs Suriname - Tuesday, June 8th, 9:05pm Eastern/6:05pm Pacific - SeatGeek Stadium, Chicago

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Canada vs Suriname
Tuesday, June 8th
9:05pm Eastern/6:05pm Pacific (8:05pm local)
SeatGeek Stadium, Chicago, IL
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0vtoG8XMAQ96_-?format=jpg&name=small

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-to-continue-fifa-world-cup-qatar-2022-qualifiers-in-florida-and-illinois/
https://canadasoccer.com/national-teams/matches/national-team-match-upcoming/?matchId=3124
https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/matches/#282655

(Herdman also confirmed that the match would take place in the USA)

Broadcast on ONESoccer

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The Suriname coach:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Gorré
https://twitter.com/deangorre

Surinaamse Voetbal Bond:
https://twitter.com/officialsvb1920
https://www.facebook.com/SVB1920

Talk about the ever-growing Suriname squad here:
https://www.canadiansoccernews.com/forums/topic/77463-opponent-watch-suriname-why-they-have-the-potential-to-be-a-tough-team/
Herdman refers to them now as "one of the Top 10 teams in CONCACAF, maybe even one of the top 8 teams"

----

We have no suspended players or players on yellow cards:
https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/matches/match/400136222/#match-lineups
https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/matches/match/400136218/#match-lineups
(so unless somebody gets a red card against Aruba, we would have everyone available)

For Suriname:
https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/matches/match/400136220/#match-lineups
https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/nccamerica/matches/match/400136227/#match-lineups
Only Ryan Donk is on a yellow card, obviously it would be great if he did something silly in the next match and got himself another one.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[TGAA_Star]

Now this is the game that will determine who goes on to the next round. A definite must win game for us. Really hoping and praying for a win.

[Shway]

1 hour ago, TGAA_Star said:

Now this is the game that will determine who goes on to the next round. A definite must win game for us. Really hoping and praying for a win.

We will most likely need a win or a draw to advance.  A loss would most likely mean we wouldn't go to the next round. 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

 

45 minutes ago, Shway said:

...against Suriname we need to look like this:

                      David

Davies                -            Larin

            Kaye - Hutchinson

                     Eustaqiou

Adekugbe - Miller - Vitoria - Laryea

                       Borjan 

Assuming we are up comfortably after 55 minutes:

- Bring Cavalini on for David to bang with their big guys, hold up and possess the game
- Wotherspoon for Kaye straight swap
- Osorio for Hutchinson (if needed)
- Buchanan for Larin 

We start with that starting XI, this game is meat and drink as the Lee Dixon says!

 

 

41 minutes ago, Shway said:

Arfield in midfield isn't a guarantee for me anymore. He hasn't been playing, coming back from injury, and skipped out on the last set of matches. I can't say he's better than three guys I listed in the middle.

 

Arfield is just so class when he is motivated and on his game. I put him in my starting 11 if he is healthy. I'd use your lineup and take out Larin and slot in Arfield.

Larin doesn't play that right-side role right? I mean, with Beşiktaş he is usually on the left or a a sole centre-forward, correct?

I find that he doesn't tend to do those creative things that Arfield does. Also, unlike Millar, Corbeanu, Hoilett and Arfield I don't rate his dribbling. Maybe it's an anti-Larin bias I have. I'm still very big on the David-Arfield partnership.

------

So the leaked schedule was right:

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-to-continue-fifa-world-cup-qatar-2022-qualifiers-in-florida-and-illinois/

 I've updated the first post.

 

[Shway]

42 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Arfield is just so class when he is motivated and on his game. I put him in my starting 11 if he is healthy. I'd use your lineup and take out Larin and slot in Arfield.

lol the man hasn’t played since March. And apparently his commitment which equals motivation is being questioned. 

42 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Larin doesn't play that right-side role right? I mean, with Beşiktaş he is usually on the left or a a sole centre-forward, correct?

He’s primarily on the left, but he’s played on the right and has been equally successfully.  I would never have Arfield in that position over Larin. Especially with the form Larin is in. He can cut in as, and leave space for Laryea in attack. 

42 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

I find that he doesn't tend to do those creative things that Arfield does. Also, unlike Millar, Corbeanu, Hoilett and Arfield I don't rate his dribbling. Maybe it's an anti-Larin bias I have. I'm still very big on the David-Arfield partnership.

Arfield for me has been impressive as the 10. His ability to combine and connect is what stood out. However with Atiba back, he does that too - and is better defensively.

I agree that Millar, Theo, and Hoilett are better dribblers, but your definitely reaching if you’re saying Arfield is a better dribbler. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him in 1v1 situations. 

I’ll just say you haven’t forgiven him for his past misses. But after the season he’s had, and the recent performances in the NT - youd be stupid to leave him out of starting XI period.  

Form! form! form! 

[TGAA_Star]

For this game my starting XI would be somewhat different than yours

GK- Borjan

LB- Adekugbe

CB- Vitoria

CB- Sturing

RB- Laryea

CDM- Hutchinson

LCM- Eustaquio

RCM- Kaye

LW- Davies

CF- David

RW- Larin

 

Surprise inclusion of Sturing as one of the center backs; give him that experience of playing in a meaningful game with the pressure on

But other than that pretty much all your regulars are there

[ghostknownunknown]

6 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Arfield is just so class when he is motivated and on his game.

Unfortunately neither can be accurately used to describe him at the moment. 

[PiedPilko]

I would like:

 

                Cavallini

         Larin-David-Davies

           Eustaquio-Atiba

 Adekugbe-Kennedy-Vitoria-Laryea

                    Borjan

David and Larin are great poachers, but they need someone else to create space for them. Larin had Aboubakar this year, and we've seen recently what Yilmaz has done for David.  We have so much goalscoring firepower, but there's a scenario where we don't have anyone in that position without that pure #9 to make things difficult for their backline. 

 

A double pivot is always sorta susceptible to getting overwhelmed, but I just don't see that happening to Steph and Atiba... especially not vs Suriname's midfield that has to play out of position. I would love to get Osorio on, but it's not worth that risk up front.

 

Kennedy-Vitoria still scares me with that potential for passing blunders, but otherwise, they compliment each other well. Should be dominant in the air, Kennedy's speed cancels out Vitoria's biggest flaw and he's still a set piece threat. They'd just better hand it over to Eustaquio every time they get possession!

 

 

    

Edited May 11, 2021 by PiedPilko

[Shway]

@PiedPilkoMust win game....and we pair Centrebacks who have never played with eachother. I love the front four though, as I would want to see that as well. Just don't think we would see that. 

However if theres anything I've learned about JH as gaffer.....the lineups and system can change against any opponent.  
+ & - 

[TGAA_Star]

15 minutes ago, PiedPilko said:

I would like:

 

                Cavallini

         Larin-David-Davies

           Eustaquio-Atiba

 Adekugbe-Kennedy-Vitoria-Laryea

                    Borjan

David and Larin are great poachers, but they need someone else to create space for them. Larin had Aboubakar this year, and we've seen recently what Yilmaz has done for David.  We have so much goalscoring firepower, but there's a scenario where we don't have anyone in that position without that pure #9 to make things difficult for their backline. 

 

A double pivot is always sorta susceptible to getting overwhelmed, but I just don't see that happening to Steph and Atiba... especially not vs Suriname's midfield that has to play out of position. I would love to get Osorio on, but it's not worth that risk up front.

 

Kennedy-Vitoria still scares me with that potential for passing blunders, but otherwise, they compliment each other well. Should be dominant in the air, Kennedy's speed cancels out Vitoria's biggest flaw and he's still a set piece threat. They'd just better hand it over to Eustaquio every time they get possession!

 

 

    

I would replace Kennedy with Sturing but your 4-2-3-1 I have no problem with otherwise

[frmr]

10 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

 

 

 

Arfield is just so class when he is motivated and on his game. I put him in my starting 11 if he is healthy. I'd use your lineup and take out Larin and slot in Arfield.

Larin doesn't play that right-side role right? I mean, with Beşiktaş he is usually on the left or a a sole centre-forward, correct?

I find that he doesn't tend to do those creative things that Arfield does. Also, unlike Millar, Corbeanu, Hoilett and Arfield I don't rate his dribbling. Maybe it's an anti-Larin bias I have. I'm still very big on the David-Arfield partnership.

------

So the leaked schedule was right:

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-to-continue-fifa-world-cup-qatar-2022-qualifiers-in-florida-and-illinois/

 I've updated the first post.

 

Not starting our most in form attacker... no offence but I’m glad you’re not manager. 

[archer21]

53 minutes ago, PiedPilko said:

I would like:

 

                Cavallini

         Larin-David-Davies

           Eustaquio-Atiba

 Adekugbe-Kennedy-Vitoria-Laryea

                    Borjan

David and Larin are great poachers, but they need someone else to create space for them. Larin had Aboubakar this year, and we've seen recently what Yilmaz has done for David.  We have so much goalscoring firepower, but there's a scenario where we don't have anyone in that position without that pure #9 to make things difficult for their backline. 

 

A double pivot is always sorta susceptible to getting overwhelmed, but I just don't see that happening to Steph and Atiba... especially not vs Suriname's midfield that has to play out of position. I would love to get Osorio on, but it's not worth that risk up front.

 

Kennedy-Vitoria still scares me with that potential for passing blunders, but otherwise, they compliment each other well. Should be dominant in the air, Kennedy's speed cancels out Vitoria's biggest flaw and he's still a set piece threat. They'd just better hand it over to Eustaquio every time they get possession!

 

 

    

I agree with basically all you’ve said here. Not sure who I’d like at CB, as we have a lot of decent but flawed options. The rest though are basically exactly what I’d want. Not sure if Herdman would go to this though, has he used David as a 10 yet? I know we’ve advocated for it on this board but I feel like he’s usually at striker or on the wing for us. I think Cavallini is the perfect player to link up with our other attacking options, which even Herdman has said are better playing between the lines, rather than alone up top.

[apbsmith]

Maybe I'm crazy but I think because of the importance of this game, we see Davies as the starting LB. No disrespect whatsoever to adekugbe and we still have tons of talent up front to bag goals.

I think you roll out Davies at LB with all his experience at LB in big games over the last 2 seasons.  I think keeping a clean sheet should be a HUGE priority and you can always push Davies up with a swap with Adekugbe if you need a goal. 

[xabuep2]

Perhaps it is still too early to know, how will Suriname go from Paramaribo to Chicago? a charter?

If it were a commercial flight, it would have to leave on June 5. As I found all flights from Paramaribo have 2-3 stopovers and the shortest lasts about 21 hours. Although they have an advantage of having one day off more than Canada, it would be exhausted in the middle of so many air stopovers. I hope it is a good advantage for you dear friends.

[dyslexic nam]

33 minutes ago, apbsmith said:

Maybe I'm crazy but I think because of the importance of this game, we see Davies as the starting LB. No disrespect whatsoever to adekugbe and we still have tons of talent up front to bag goals.

I think you roll out Davies at LB with all his experience at LB in big games over the last 2 seasons.  I think keeping a clean sheet should be a HUGE priority and you can always push Davies up with a swap with Adekugbe if you need a goal. 

I am a big Davies fan, but a lot of what he brings at LB is his two-way play.  He didn’t get plaudits at Bayern because he was never beaten - it was his attacking skills (from LB) that generally got him praise.  As a purely defensive LB, I am not sure he is that far ahead of the other options.  I know he plays there for one of the biggest clubs in the world, but if keeping a clean sheet is your absolute top priority in this game, I am not sure it is a slam dunk argument to put Davies in at LB.  

[Obinna]

37 minutes ago, archer21 said:

I agree with basically all you’ve said here. Not sure who I’d like at CB, as we have a lot of decent but flawed options. The rest though are basically exactly what I’d want. Not sure if Herdman would go to this though, has he used David as a 10 yet? I know we’ve advocated for it on this board but I feel like he’s usually at striker or on the wing for us. I think Cavallini is the perfect player to link up with our other attacking options, which even Herdman has said are better playing between the lines, rather than alone up top.

I don't believe Herdman had used Larin as a 10 until the Bermuda match, but that's what we saw:

 

The idea was to get Larin in the spots he was finding at Besiktas, but since the international break Larin has been playing and scoring at CF in the absence of Abubakar. I am curious to know how all the pieces are going to fit with David back in the fold. 

 

[Shway]

21 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am a big Davies fan, but a lot of what he brings at LB is his two-way play.  He didn’t get plaudits at Bayern because he was never beaten - it was his attacking skills (from LB) that generally got him praise.  As a purely defensive LB, I am not sure he is that far ahead of the other options.  I know he plays there for one of the biggest clubs in the world, but if keeping a clean sheet is your absolute top priority in this game, I am not sure it is a slam dunk argument to put Davies in at LB.  

Spot on.

Davies has looked great at LB for Bayern because they typically have 80% of the possession. And his "defence" has been attributed to his ability to track back quickly/breaking any counters.

However as we seen (I'll keep referring back to this as long as I see Davies mentioned for LB) in the nations league game against the US at BMO....when he has the freedom to create we are dangerous. When he's expected to attack from the back it leaves us with holes (against the USA at Exploria) that get exploited, because we aren't a team that are going to have majority of the possession against the bigger opponent. 

[apbsmith]

47 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am a big Davies fan, but a lot of what he brings at LB is his two-way play.  He didn’t get plaudits at Bayern because he was never beaten - it was his attacking skills (from LB) that generally got him praise.  As a purely defensive LB, I am not sure he is that far ahead of the other options.  I know he plays there for one of the biggest clubs in the world, but if keeping a clean sheet is your absolute top priority in this game, I am not sure it is a slam dunk argument to put Davies in at LB.  

I see your point and perhaps he does find himself out of a position at times, but I feel his defensive IQ and his positioning has improved dramatically over the last 2 years. In big games he is my #1 LB selection, guess we will wait and see what the gaffer decides. 

As for defending, I believe Davies was #1 in 1v1 defensive duels won as both highest total and highest %won by any RB or LB in all of Bundesliga back to back seasons ('19-'20) & ('20-21)? I know last year he was highest for sure. Maybe that is because they kept trying to test the youngster defensively and he kept slamming the door? 

My understanding is "defensive duels won" is the most important stat for 1v1 defending and breaking up a counter actually falls into "recoveries won" in advanced analytics, maybe i'm wrong?

I guess at the same time, to contradict myself, if Adekugbe can hold the fort you have a winger like Davies who can also defend if required. 

Anyways, good discussion, the Davies at LB debate will continue for the next 10 years!

Edited May 11, 2021 by apbsmith

[apbsmith]

25 minutes ago, Shway said:

Spot on.

Davies has looked great at LB for Bayern because they typically have 80% of the possession. And his "defence" has been attributed to his ability to track back quickly/breaking any counters.

However as we seen (I'll keep referring back to this as long as I see Davies mentioned for LB) in the nations league game against the US at BMO....when he has the freedom to create we are dangerous. When he's expected to attack from the back it leaves us with holes (against the USA at Exploria) that get exploited, because we aren't a team that are going to have majority of the possession against the bigger opponent. 

That's a valid point Re: USA away game. 

At the same time, I think we got it wrong with tactics etc in that game, but that USA away is an entire different topic in itself.

Edited May 11, 2021 by apbsmith

[archer21]

3 hours ago, apbsmith said:

I see your point and perhaps he does find himself out of a position at times, but I feel his defensive IQ and his positioning has improved dramatically over the last 2 years. In big games he is my #1 LB selection, guess we will wait and see what the gaffer decides. 

As for defending, I believe Davies was #1 in 1v1 defensive duels won as both highest total and highest %won by any RB or LB in all of Bundesliga back to back seasons ('19-'20) & ('20-21)? I know last year he was highest for sure. Maybe that is because they kept trying to test the youngster defensively and he kept slamming the door? 

My understanding is "defensive duels won" is the most important stat for 1v1 defending and breaking up a counter actually falls into "recoveries won" in advanced analytics, maybe i'm wrong?

I guess at the same time, to contradict myself, if Adekugbe can hold the fort you have a winger like Davies who can also defend if required. 

Anyways, good discussion, the Davies at LB debate will continue for the next 10 years!

I think Davies is really good at defending 1v1, it’s more his positioning and lapses of concentration where he loses his mark that concerns me.

I agree with Shway that he shouldn’t be at LB when we don’t expect to have the majority of possession. Against Suriname though, we probably should have the majority of possession. The question is whether it’s worth the risk to have Davies at LB for the added attack, or put a more defensive minded LB to solidify defensively.

[TGAA_Star]

However, for the Suriname match my starting XI would be a lot stronger

GK- Borjan

LB- Adekugbe

CB- Miller

CB- Vitoria

RB- Laryea

CDM- Hutchinson

LCM- Eustaquio

RCM- Hoilett

LW- Davies

CF- Cavallini

RW- David

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:26 AM, frmr said:

Not starting our most in form attacker... no offence but I’m glad you’re not manager. 

No offense taken!

21 hours ago, Obinna said:

Larin has been playing and scoring at CF in the absence of Abubakar. I am curious to know how all the pieces are going to fit with David back in the fold. 

 

My bias is that I rate Larin as a centre forward, or, on the left side in a 4-4-2 and not as anything else against a quality opponent. The problem is that I rate David in that same centre forward role more than I do Larin.

With two forwards I could see Larin on the left and David on the right, just as they play at club level.

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

No offense taken!

My bias is that I rate Larin as a centre forward, or, on the left side in a 4-4-2 and not as anything else against a quality opponent. The problem is that I rate David in that same centre forward role more than I do Larin.

With two forwards I could see Larin on the left and David on the right, just as they play at club level.

This is what I am thinking as well. David is just as good or better at leading the line, or finding the space between the lines. Both players are quite similar, so Herdman may elect to pair them together and they can take turns leading the line, dropping between the lines, floating out wide etc.

Both have great movement, so it should work out, but if they get in each others way or we simply need something different, Cavallini could be brought on to play the Yilmaz/Abubakar role. 

I don't know if a front 3 of Larin-Cav-David would work though, I see a front 2 with any combination of those 3. If we go with a front 3 I think we need at least 1 true wide player, either a Davies or Hoilett (or Corbeanu/Buchanan/Miller).

 

[Obinna]

8 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

However, for the Suriname match my starting XI would be a lot stronger

GK- Borjan

LB- Adekugbe

CB- Miller

CB- Vitoria

RB- Laryea

CDM- Hutchinson

LCM- Eustaquio

RCM- Hoilett

LW- Davies

CF- Cavallini

RW- David

I think you've nailed the keeper and the backline. The forward line is realistic, even though I suspect Larin finds a way in there.

The thing that stands out for me is Hoilett in the middle of the park. In a way I like it, because he has the qualities to play more central and he already takes up those positions anyways. As he continues to lose his pace I can see him evolving to be more of a CAM or second striker than a winger.

That said, I think we need more of a two-way player there for the national team. If you are suggesting we play Hoilett at the tip of a midfield triangle, then I am more interested, but then again we have Osorio, Arfield and even Kaye who can play that role. We could even put Atiba there and bring Piette on for the DM role.

We still have plenty of midfield options and Hoilett hasn't been playing and won't be playing leading up to this game, so it's hard for me to even see him starting in a winger/wide forward role, let alone a RCM role.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't know if a front 3 of Larin-Cav-David would work though, I see a front 2 with any combination of those 3.

Ya, 2 of those 3 could work, all 3 at once is a recipe for a disconnect between the defense and the forwards I think. Too much of a good thing!