The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, cronaldo7 said:

Personally, I disagree. Commentators were applauding him. From my eye test, he played well and was solid. Hard to have a flawless match when you’re up against one of the best wingers in the world. Yes, he wasn’t perfect but definitely thought it was an above-average performance against a very good team. 

I agree with you, folks are terribly overstating any supposed problems.

Reading this thread you'd think Real Madrid should renege on their choice of Davies as starting left back.

[Kadenge]

To put things in perspective, Tchouameni took a yellow card within the first 2 mins and City scored on the resulting free kick. It happens. Despite not having natural defensive instincts, he has been able to utilize his pace to shut down top players in prior seasons. But it seems with Tuchel's arrival, the joy of the game has gone for Davies. I think we will see him at his best with his next club. He desperately needs a change.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree with you, folks are terribly overstating any supposed problems.

Reading this thread you'd think Real Madrid should renege on their choice of Davies as starting left back.

You have inside knowledge as to what Madrid's plans for him are?

 

But seriously, Madrid will be a beefed up, even higher tempo version of Champion League-winning Bayern.  He will have to guard against the same kind breaks in the open field that made him famous when Bayern won it all.  His actual fullback defending still needs work. Don't you agree? Maybe a different coach will change him.  But is that really what we want? See below.

51 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Despite not having natural defensive instincts, he has been able to...

First I will say his fight defensively for us has not wavered, if he lost the ball or it was anywhere around him against T&T, he was back on it in a flash.

But this is what is wacky to me - people are clamouring for him to be fullback for Canada when he doesn't have those instincts and he is prone to try and do everything.  Both can be an absolute disaster in a defensive position.  Let him run at people at the top of the field or at least have the isolation of a wingback to show his pace to the fullest.

I don't think Canada can be prime Bayern or Real Madrid even in style so why waste him at back or worse, highlight his poor qualities while subverting his best.

Edited April 10 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You have inside knowledge as to what Madrid's plans for him are?

I have a better idea of how a fullback is used at Real Madrid than most here, and especially those who have never watched Spanish football regularly, never mind one of the best teams in the world. He'll thrive at Madrid, even a guy like Dani Carvajal, not an attacking fullback, not particularly skilled at anything, close to a high level journeyman, is more useful as a FB at Madrid than Davies at Bayern, when it comes to both defending and attacking.

He is used wrongly at Bayern, in my opinion, and has been almost since day one. I say almost, because he had minutes as a right wing, before injuries gave him a chance at left back. 

Even the first year with Perisic there, his channel up the left was always blocked. He overlaps every now and then, is often ignored by the wing on his side. And basically for all his years there it has been the same, they have rarely used him to attack effectively down the left. His numbers are actually quite terrible for such as fast player with a decent dribble, he has few goals, few assists. Just watch how Grimaldo plays at Leverkusen, a left back, huge difference. I mean, even when Jordi Alba was in total decline at Barça he was getting better numbers in attack, in assists and goals. 

All this ends up justifying what we do with him at Canada. We at least try to use his speed, dribble, shot, and tenacious character, to break down defenses. We don't lock him down to a defensive FB spot. And his numbers in attack with Canada are far superior, not surprisingly. They could even be better, I would say, but since we have other options in attack it is not a serious problem. 

So I agree with you that we do right to not oblige him to have a defensive role with Canada, despite out back line being our weakest area. Better to free him from those duties. That won't happen at Real Madrid, not with both Vinicius and Mbappe both most comfortable attacking from the left side. But he'll move differently, have more opportunities to attack, won't be ignored, when he goes forward he'll be covered for, everything that should happen with an attacking back and doesn't with him at Bayern will happen at Madrid. I am proud as a Canadian, but not too pleased as a Barça fan that we'll have to deal with the Davies upgrade at Real.

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, cronaldo7 said:

Yes, he wasn’t perfect but definitely thought it was an above-average performance against a very good team. 

And he was on a yellow after the 9th minute and the coaches still trusted him to do the job.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

25 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just watch how Grimaldo plays at Leverkusen, a left back, huge difference

I think that's people's problem right there Grimaldo is clearly playing as a wingback not a fulback.  And he thrives in one best run systems with 3 at the back there is.  Have you watched him at all with Leverkusen?

But he is much more skilled on the ball than Davies though lacking other areas.  It is his counter part on the other side - Frimpong   - that Davies could actually duplicate.

I did a big stat dive on Davies' offensive stuff when @costarg and I were arguing his position on the other thread.  And - yes- his number are poor even for a fullback on an attacking team with stars all around him.  At their best, he was there to make sure their bucanneering around didn't get them countered too hard, and to provide diversion runs sometimes.  Nagelsmann was slowly expanding his role but there you go.

We aren't good enough to just take that from his talent.

Edited April 10 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Mattd97]

5 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Saka can be excellent, but if we are actual talking about one of the better left backs  in the world defending him, we can be hypercritical. 

If we as Canada want a real left back against good teams, not an amazing hybrid wing player, there were some very basic errors on show last night. 

There are some wingers who, if you make a split second lapse, your pace can't bail you out.  He got distracted by the ball and let his man go more than once. Saka is one of those winger.  We will be facing a few more probably this summer.  

Goals are sometimes scores in soccer. Even against good defenders.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Mattd97 said:

Goals are sometimes scores in soccer. Even against good defenders.

Very true. 

However, the goal in question was preventable.  

Davies made a decent play on the initial pass and run, knocking the ball away.  However, Saka then moves inside him toward the goal and he lets him go and moved a split second towards the ball, despite the fact that Gnabry had the man with it. 

Ben White then has an easy pass because Saka has inside postition.  Saka has to finish but he has a free shot at the goal. 

If a player moves across in front you, heading for the goal, and you don't follow, it is a poor and preventable defensive play. 

Edited April 11 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Kent]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:43 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

I don't think they'll be called, you can't know when the team has set or not, how can you establish that they are starting the restart?

I have always played by an imaginary rule that I wish was adopted. When I am taking a free kick, I place it with my hand, and the next time I touch the ball with a foot is when I am restarting play. Even if someone nicely passes the ball right to my feet to give me the ball for the restart. I will likely stop the ball with my foot, but then I'll confirm I'm placing it with my hand and then take the kick. If I'm considering taking a quick free kick, I've got my head looking up as I'm placing the ball with my hand and if it's a short enough pass I might pass it before standing upright again.

Anyways, that's just me being a nerd. Maybe that was the reason I never made it as a pro. Or maybe it was because I lacked the skill, athleticism, and football IQ needed to be a pro. It's hard to say for certain.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I think that's people's problem right there Grimaldo is clearly playing as a wingback not a fulback.  And he thrives in one best run systems with 3 at the back there is.  Have you watched him at all with Leverkusen?

But he is much more skilled on the ball than Davies though lacking other areas.  It is his counter part on the other side - Frimpong   - that Davies could actually duplicate.

I did a big stat dive on Davies' offensive stuff when @costarg and I were arguing his position on the other thread.  And - yes- his number are poor even for a fullback on an attacking team with stars all around him.  At their best, he was there to make sure their bucanneering around didn't get them countered too hard, and to provide diversion runs sometimes.  Nagelsmann was slowly expanding his role but there you go.

We aren't good enough to just take that from his talent.

I watched Grimaldo at Barça B a decade ago. For Leverkusen I've seen a few matches, including vs Bayern and the last Europa League crazy match.

A team with capacity to be dominant can throw a FB forward and shouldn't have to require him to hold sitting deep all match. So even in a back 4 plenty of fbs can get forward, depending how they're set up to cover. Real Madrid has always played 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or variations, and at least one FB can get deep, assist, score.

As right now a very solid but unspectacular Carvajal is that guy, on the right, and he's ageing, they may put Davies on the left and he'll be the attacking FB replacing Mendy. Or else Ancelotti has some other idea. 

He may change things up, because which other major coach in world football regularly watches Canada?

 

Edited April 11 by Unnamed Trialist

[InglewoodJack]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Reading this thread you'd think Real Madrid should renege on their choice of Davies as starting left back.

I hear that Theo Hernandez fellow is quite good and will be looking for a new club this summer...

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Kent said:

I have always played by an imaginary rule that I wish was adopted. When I am taking a free kick, I place it with my hand, and the next time I touch the ball with a foot is when I am restarting play. Even if someone nicely passes the ball right to my feet to give me the ball for the restart. I will likely stop the ball with my foot, but then I'll confirm I'm placing it with my hand and then take the kick. If I'm considering taking a quick free kick, I've got my head looking up as I'm placing the ball with my hand and if it's a short enough pass I might pass it before standing upright again.

Anyways, that's just me being a nerd. Maybe that was the reason I never made it as a pro. Or maybe it was because I lacked the skill, athleticism, and football IQ needed to be a pro. It's hard to say for certain.

That is exactly how futsal is played, by the way, set with your hand, take the set piece. Often they go down very slowly with the ball in their hand, head up, and the moment the ball hits the ground they are kicking the restart. That could also be because the ball will often roll a bit on the smooth surface, so the hand gives the futsal player a stable ball.

A few Brazilians will do this in football for shorter passes, Deco did, Ronaldhino, Neymar did, they'll even fake a restart like that.

Of course the futsal ball is smaller, so most guys can grab it with one hand, harder with a full-sized football.

Maybe your true destiny was to be playing pro futsal.

Edited April 11 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

That is exactly how futsal is played, by the way, set with your hand, take the set piece. Often they go down very slowly with the ball in their hand, head up, and the moment the ball hits the ground they are kicking the restart. That could also be because the ball will often roll a bit on the smooth surface, so the hand gives the futsal player a stable ball.

A few Brazilians will do this in football for shorter passes, Deco did, Ronaldhino, Neymar did, they'll even fake a restart like that.

Of course the futsal ball is smaller, so most guys can grab it with one hand, harder with a full-sized football.

Maybe your true destiny was to be playing pro futsal.

Good point. That might be where I got that part of my habit from. I played in a futsal tournament once. My team signed up for the tournament as a kind of indoor season pre-season to get in shape. We were in WAAY over our heads against some very good and experienced futsal teams. Some had gone to tournaments in South America. We were just an average men's team at a different brand of indoor soccer (the type with hockey boards) and outdoor as well. We had to learn the new rules on the spot. We didn't even know it was going to be a smaller ball until we arrived at the tournament. We got absolutely slaughtered in each game, but yeah, I probably learned the "head up while putting the ball down" technique there. That was probably a bit over 20 years ago.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I watched Grimaldo at Barça B a decade ago. For Leverkusen I've seen a few matches, including vs Bayern and the last Europa League crazy match.

A team with capacity to be dominant can throw a FB forward and shouldn't have to require him to hold sitting deep all match. So even in a back 4 plenty of fbs can get forward, depending how they're set up to cover. Real Madrid has always played 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or variations, and at least one FB can get deep, assist, score.

As right now a very solid but unspectacular Carvajal is that guy, on the right, and he's ageing, they may put Davies on the left and he'll be the attacking FB replacing Mendy. Or else Ancelotti has some other idea. 

He may change things up, because which other major coach in world football regularly watches Canada?

 

First - the joking rib was: You (and we or anyone) don't actually know he going he going to be a first choice fullback.  We don't know he's going for sure and we don't know what their actual plans are.  We can read all we want, but at the end of the day, we are randos on a football message board. Your last couple sentences of this post say that. 

 

Whatever Grimaldo has done 10 years ago, using his play at Leverkusen to say what a fullback can do is actually irrelevent because they are playing without fullbacks and he has a very different skill set to Davies.  (I get to watch their tactical masterclass against some dour Scotch resilience today - with the hope of some brillance on the counter.)  

Could  Davies be used like Hakimi or Walker, or slightly more modestly Reece James, of course, though I think they have better defensive nous at this point. Can he be used like Grimaldo, or Alexander-Arnold, - not really - he doesn't have the ball skills (yet?).

A team does not need to be dominant to used their fullbacks in an attacking way, Aaron Cresswell when he was young and playing regularly was near the top of the assist charts for defenders most years.  And those West Ham teams were certainly far from dominant.  But he added set-piece ability which, at top club level, Davies can't (yet?).

 

But overall, to say Davies was used poorly at Bayern - yes and no.  If your goal is to win games and the biggest games, they used him well for a couple years, they didn't really need his offence, they did need someone to mop up when they gave it away, which he did incredibly well.  Did they do a whole lot to develop him as a winger - which is what they bought him for -  or as an actual defender? Not that much. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

13 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

First - the joking rib was: You (and we or anyone) don't actually know he going he going to be a first choice fullback.  We don't know he's going for sure and we don't know what their actual plans are.  We can read all we want, but at the end of the day, we are randos on a football message board. Your last couple sentences of this post say that. 

 

Whatever Grimaldo has done 10 years ago, using his play at Leverkusen to say what a fullback can do is actually irrelevent because they are playing without fullbacks and he has a very different skill set to Davies.  (I get to watch their tactical masterclass against some dour Scotch resilience today - with the hope of some brillance on the counter.)  

Could  Davies be used like Hakimi or Walker, or slightly more modestly Reece James, of course, though I think they have better defensive nous at this point. Can he be used like Grimaldo, or Alexander-Arnold, - not really - he doesn't have the ball skills (yet?).

A team does not need to be dominant to used their fullbacks in an attacking way, Aaron Cresswell when he was young and playing regularly was near the top of the assist charts for defenders most years.  And those West Ham teams were certainly far from dominant.  But he added set-piece ability which, at top club level, Davies can't (yet?).

 

But overall, to say Davies was used poorly at Bayern - yes and no.  If your goal is to win games and the biggest games, they used him well for a couple years, they didn't really need his offence, they did need someone to mop up when they gave it away, which he did incredibly well.  Did they do a whole lot to develop him as a winger - which is what they bought him for -  or as an actual defender? Not that much. 

Cheers for the match today, had not remembered that.

Should be a good one but I am tempted to watch David vs. Villa. 

West Ham should focus on how Leverkusen were actually a disaster against Qarabag, had to come back both times miraculously and were not in control. 

In any case, I know Grimaldo has a different skill set, and I guess you are right he is really a left mid in front of a back three.

Edited April 11 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

11 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In any case, I know Grimaldo has a different skill set, and I guess you are right he is really a left mid in front of a back three.

Just term differences - I say wing back.

And you can use players different ways, there, as well.  I think Davies is made for playing the way they do with Frimpong on the other side.  My preference how Canada would play him, if we can make it work across the rest of the field. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Just term differences - I say wing back.

And you can use players different ways, there, as well.  I think Davies is made for playing the way they do with Frimpong on the other side.  My preference how Canada would play him, if we can make it work across the rest of the field. 

As I have rather timidly been thinking and posting lately, there is something in playing with a single striker plus Davies vs. Netherlands, Argentina, France if we see them. David up high, sit Larin, let Davies attack with him out of a midfield with less responsibility for tracking back.

I don't know how many saw PSG-Barça last night, which was an amazing result for us considering we are still not playing that great: but Dembele, that has to be a model. Dembele is trickier, more technical on the dribble, better wrong foot. The speed is similar, similar shot, Davies is better as a defender now, not usually a scorer, but effective with assists. You change him sides.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As I have rather timidly been thinking and posting lately, there is something in playing with a single striker plus Davies vs. Netherlands, Argentina, France if we see them. David up high, sit Larin, let Davies attack with him out of a midfield with less responsibility for tracking back.

I don't know how many saw PSG-Barça last night, which was an amazing result for us considering we are still not playing that great: but Dembele, that has to be a model. Dembele is trickier, more technical on the dribble, better wrong foot. The speed is similar, similar shot, Davies is better as a defender now, not usually a scorer, but effective with assists. You change him sides.

I will say, if you set him up near the top of pitch, his potential on the counter has to put the fear of the football gods into the opposition, no matter how good they are. 

[narduch]

16 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As I have rather timidly been thinking and posting lately, there is something in playing with a single striker plus Davies vs. Netherlands, Argentina, France if we see them. David up high, sit Larin, let Davies attack with him out of a midfield with less responsibility for tracking back.

I don't know how many saw PSG-Barça last night, which was an amazing result for us considering we are still not playing that great: but Dembele, that has to be a model. Dembele is trickier, more technical on the dribble, better wrong foot. The speed is similar, similar shot, Davies is better as a defender now, not usually a scorer, but effective with assists. You change him sides.

I like this idea a lot.

4-5-1 vs stronger teams.

Davies and Buchanan as the wide midfielders. David alone up top.

A real midfield 3. That most of us have been begging for.

I guess you need Adekugbe back and playing at his top level as a real LB to make this work (or am I forgetting someone?)

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

20 minutes ago, narduch said:

I like this idea a lot.

4-5-1 vs stronger teams.

Davies and Buchanan as the wide midfielders. David alone up top.

A real midfield 3. That most of us have been begging for.

I guess you need Adekugbe back and playing at his top level as a real LB to make this work (or am I forgetting someone?)

I said something similar on the COPA thread about Argentina.

You do a back 4 if Adekugbe is fit and firing. 

If not -  still press the life out of them

Something a bit different. David up top with either Millar or Davies. The other of Millar and Davies as left midfielder/wingback, Buchanan on the right.  Eustaquio, Kone, and Choniere - who can run all day.  Here's the fun bit - Cornelius, Miller, and Bombito. Miller in the centre as the organizer but relying on help from the bigger, fasters guys if balls in the air become an issue. 

[costarg]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I said something similar on the COPA thread about Argentina.

You do a back 4 if Adekugbe is fit and firing. 

If not -  still press the life out of them

Something a bit different. David up top with either Millar or Davies. The other of Millar and Davies as left midfielder/wingback, Buchanan on the right.  Eustaquio, Kone, and Choniere - who can run all day.  Here's the fun bit - Cornelius, Miller, and Bombito. Miller in the centre as the organizer but relying on help from the bigger, fasters guys if balls in the air become an issue. 

I'm on board with aaallllllmost all of this.  Concerned about Miller at the center of the back 3 though.  Having seen a lot of him with both club and country, he's never struck me as the organizer you'd want at the back.  He's got a lot of good qualities, but i don't feel that is in his toolkit.

  

[narduch]

On the bench v Koln

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

9 minutes ago, narduch said:

On the bench v Koln

Makes sense  if they are looking at it as having one shot left this season and its not the league.

Edited April 13 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Gian-Luca]

He is suspended anyway for the next leg against Arsenal. This is just a well earned rest I should think after going 90 back to back in the past week

[Gian-Luca]

On in the 62nd replacing Mazroui