The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[Obinna]

They'll always be some debate for lists like this, but I think it's pretty reasonable for the most part. Dempsey struck me as being a tad high, but he deserves a spot in the top half of that list, at least. 

Davies seems approriately placed considering the career he's had so far. If they made this list in 10 years time, Davies would likely be in the top 5 and David should be somewhere on the list. Depending on how the rest of their careers go, I can see Buchanan and Eustaquio getting on such a list as well. Maybe Larin even sneaks on there. 

[Kent]

I don't know 5 or 6 of the players on the list, but it seems broadly fine to me. Bahr is there not because he is the 5th best player of all time from North America, but just because it is a teachable moment to let people know about that 1950 team. If I was making a list like this I might include someone from the 2000 Gold Cup that doesn't belong so I can mention that team's accomplishment.

[InglewoodJack]

Depending on what the next few decades look like for Canada, Larin should be on a list like this based on his international pedigree. He’s realistically the face of Canada’s change of fortune over the last 5 years, and if this is truly a paradigm shift that will usher in consistent WC appearances, concacaf hardware, a team that can compete out of conference, so on, then you have to have him in the mix. He’s probably one of the most illustrious active concacaf players right now from a national team perspective, and per some of that list’s descriptions, I feel like “scored a ton of goals during Canada’s miracle WCQ run” is more than enough to be among the continent’s all time greats. 
 

David too, and depending on how he performs at his next club, could end up one of the best ever North Americans to ever do it. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Treppy2 said:

Davies is ranked #13 on this list of the best North American football players ever: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/the-best-footballers-from-north-america-ever

As it says, "He's the youngest player on this list by some distance" so he should move up the list by the end of his career. He's the only Canadian on the list.

I agree with the rankings for the most part, but there are some interesting choices. I've been following football for a long time and had never heard of the players ranked #5, 7 and 11.

Any list that doesn't include Dely Valdes loses all credit. 

It is very dubious on a lot of levels, especially ranking these middling US players so high.

[Obinna]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Any list that doesn't include Dely Valdes loses all credit. 

It is very dubious on a lot of levels, especially ranking these middling US players so high.

Good catch

[El Diego]

I know he only had 30 caps for Jamaica, but they included guys like Shaka Hislop so not sure how Wes Morgan doesn't make the list.

Keylor Navas, despite being 9th, is way too low.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I know he only had 30 caps for Jamaica, but they included guys like Shaka Hislop so not sure how Wes Morgan doesn't make the list.

Keylor Navas, despite being 9th, is way too low.

You could argue that the historical importance of Jorge Campos is as high, but obviously Keylor's club legacy is unarguable, as well as one particular WC campaign that betters anything every seen from a Mexican player. Mexico has never won a knockout round at a World Cup, isn't that the case, or else just once? That weakens the overall profile of the region.

But if Márquez, playing for Barcelona and winning Champions, is second, then Keylor, winning Champions with Real Madrid (something Hugo Sánchez never did), and getting further in a World Cup, and having a longer and more storied career, has to be in the top 5.

I saw Hugo Sánchez play, obviously an amazing player; I also saw Mágico Gónzalez, whose reputation and pure skill set goes beyond his numbers; but if you look at goal scoring, despite being on modest teams, Dely Valdes is amongst the top 6-8 attackers from our region ever. He has almost 150 goals over ten years in Spain, Italy and France top flight.

As for what @InglewoodJack says about Larin or David: the latter has numbers that put him amongst the best Concacaf strikers ever, though as long as they are in France and not in a big 4 league, that won't hold up as well. He's also won a league in France. 

Edited March 21 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Keylor Navas, despite being 9th, is way too low.

Felt that way too. 

19 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I know he only had 30 caps for Jamaica, but they included guys like Shaka Hislop so not sure how Wes Morgan doesn't make the list.

Wes Morgan had a steller club career, but I don't think his contribution with Jamaica warrented being on this list. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

These are always fun. 

Shout out to three (3!) former Hammers, first off.

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It is very dubious on a lot of levels, especially ranking these middling US players so high.

19 minutes ago, Kent said:

Bahr is there not because he is the 5th best player of all time from North America, but just because it is a teachable moment to let people know about that 1950 team.

Lots of errors, US is rated too high generally unless we rate the Gold Cup higher than I think it should.

Donovan can arguably be said to have not done anything huge on a big club stage, his one year with Bayern they didn't even win😉 .  Probably Euro-bias but Dempsey at least played and contributed at the top league level and even has some time in the Europa League

Howard above Friedel for me. 

 

 

- Maybe a generational thing because I never saw one but you need to put Márquez ahead of Sanchez for #1.  Better international club competition wins; more Gold Cups; more World Cup appearance?; similar club stuff. 

- How much to you rate international stuff, Yorke goes way down for obvious reasons despite Champions League and top league and cup wins.  

- Again depending on your international bias, Navas needs to be way higher (most Champions League wins on the list?) , certainly ahead of Chicharito and the Americans. 

 

 

 

[InglewoodJack]

13 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

As for what @InglewoodJack says about Larin or David: the latter has numbers that put him amongst the best Concacaf strikers ever, though as long as they are in France and not in a big 4 league, that won't hold up as well. He's also won a league in France. 

By the time the sun starts to set on David’s career, I think we’ll see a lot more concacaf players playing in very high leagues, so I agree that if his biggest accomplishments are in France, I don’t know that he’ll be considered one of the all time greats. If he does reproduce his form somewhere in England, spain, or Italy, I think he’s in that conversation. I have Larin purely up there for his international performances. I think it’s hard to find 25 other players who will have impacted either their club or country more significantly than Larin has by the time he retires. If he scores at the next World Cup, he’ll be a lock, I think. 

[Stryker911]

4 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

These are always fun. 

Shout out to three (3!) former Hammers, first off.

Lots of errors, US is rated too high generally unless we rate the Gold Cup higher than I think it should.

Donovan can arguably be said to have not done anything huge on a big club stage, his one year with Bayern they didn't even win😉 .  Probably Euro-bias but Dempsey at least played and contributed at the top league level and even has some time in the Europa League

Howard above Friedel for me. 

 

 

- Maybe a generational thing because I never saw one but you need to put Márquez ahead of Sanchez for #1.  Better international club competition wins; more Gold Cups; more World Cup appearance?; similar club stuff. 

- How much to you rate international stuff, Yorke goes way down for obvious reasons despite Champions League and top league and cup wins.  

- Again depending on your international bias, Navas needs to be way higher (most Champions League wins on the list?) , certainly ahead of Chicharito and the Americans. 

 

 

 

I thought the same thing about Donovan. No player that played mostly in MLS should be that high. Multiple attempts at Europe, but never stuck.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

By the time the sun starts to set on David’s career, I think we’ll see a lot more concacaf players playing in very high leagues, so I agree that if his biggest accomplishments are in France, I don’t know that he’ll be considered one of the all time greats. If he does reproduce his form somewhere in England, spain, or Italy, I think he’s in that conversation. I have Larin purely up there for his international performances. I think it’s hard to find 25 other players who will have impacted either their club or country more significantly than Larin has by the time he retires. If he scores at the next World Cup, he’ll be a lock, I think. 

As much as it pains me in one way, David is on par with someone like Wanchope already.  80 goals in France already compared to 56 in a couple top divisions and a better international record in terms of wins?

16 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Felt that way too. 

Wes Morgan had a steller club career, but I don't think his contribution with Jamaica warrented being on this list. 

Do the same with Antonio. Though Morgan does have that one miracle year, he played considerably less in the Premier League.  Remember Leicester were a lower league team not that many years before they won it all. 

[InglewoodJack]

41 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

As much as it pains me in one way, David is on par with someone like Wanchope already.  80 goals in France already compared to 56 in a couple top divisions and a better international record in terms of wins?

With David, I'm factoring in the assumption that by the time David's career ends, there will be more North Americans playing in top leagues, and whereas 80 French goals today is one of the best resumes on the continent, how will that compare if we start seeing more Americans (and a few Canadians!) playing in any of the top leagues. Pulisic looks like one of the best players in Serie A right now, Balogun is having an off year, but he still has ample time to turn it around and get back to England, there's that 14 year old kid who just signed with City who is obviously a long shot, but there are more and more players from our side of the world reaching top leagues. If David goes to England and caps out as a mediocre goal scorrer, I don't think his French resume holds up as well by the end of his career. If he has a few solid seasons in a better league, I think he ends as one of the continent's all time greats.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

These are always fun. 

Shout out to three (3!) former Hammers, first off.

Lots of errors, US is rated too high generally unless we rate the Gold Cup higher than I think it should.

Donovan can arguably be said to have not done anything huge on a big club stage, his one year with Bayern they didn't even win😉 .  Probably Euro-bias but Dempsey at least played and contributed at the top league level and even has some time in the Europa League

Howard above Friedel for me. 

 

 

- Maybe a generational thing because I never saw one but you need to put Márquez ahead of Sanchez for #1.  Better international club competition wins; more Gold Cups; more World Cup appearance?; similar club stuff. 

- How much to you rate international stuff, Yorke goes way down for obvious reasons despite Champions League and top league and cup wins.  

- Again depending on your international bias, Navas needs to be way higher (most Champions League wins on the list?) , certainly ahead of Chicharito and the Americans. 

Funny, but I accept Márquez being behind Sánchez, so I am giving a Madrid (and Atlético) player a higher rating. He was scoring at what later would be Messi-Cristiano levels in his prime years, it was something never before seen. Then others came along and scored similarly in Spain (Ronaldo Nazario de Lima), but he was a breakout player. He also scored rather spectacularly.  Saying all this despite him being an ass on and off the field. He is still a bit of an ass, though perhaps the Mexican programmes deserve his ire.

Márquez was a solid piece at Barça, but I would not say anyone ever felt he was clearly our best CB, beside Puyol, nor for a very long time. He was highly regarded in Mexico (and I understand was even a sex symbol, which we never grasped), he was elegant, had nice technique, was a case of a slow player who had superb positioning. He was a leader on the field.

I can accept a player like Navas should be considered up there with both of them. I am trying to be unbiased.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

20 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

With David, I'm factoring in the assumption that by the time David's career ends, there will be more North Americans playing in top leagues, and whereas 80 French goals today is one of the best resumes on the continent...

Maybe but just going from what I know of this list.

Wanchope was a decent Premier League striker and his year at West Ham was good  He was part of a really great attacking lineup with Sinclair, DiCanio and Kanoute.  (Though that was the year Forrest let in 7 against Man U)

David already has Champions League and  Europa League (and Conference League) goals. His body of work already is at least comparable to strikers at the bottom of that list, for me  Unless we give a lot of weight to winning international tournaments, unfortunately, where the Mexicans and Americans get a huge boost.

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Funny, but I accept Márquez being behind Sánchez, so I am giving a Madrid (and Atlético) player a higher rating.

 

Fair enough.

38 in 35 games one year is pretty impressive.  I couldn't watch much football in late 80s early 90s, let alone La Liga. So as I said, I never saw him.

So was comparing what they achieved with their teams and country.

I remember Marquez a bit and I love a centre back.  Some of the on the ball stuff reminded me of Bobby Moore or Rio, though Marquez seems to have gone to ground a lot more than the former.  

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

I thought the same thing about Donovan. No player that played mostly in MLS should be that high. Multiple attempts at Europe, but never stuck.

I agree with this, but Donovan is arguably the most recognizable and best American player ever (and the United States are no lower than 2nd in his region, so from that perspective I can understand 4th. His case is hurt by never really playing outside MLS, sure, but he's arguably the best player to ever play in that league which counts for something. 

And with Donavan going 4th in that list, you cannot really put Dempsey much lower, as he's arguably the best American export to Europe and stats wise he's right up there with Donavan. 

Personally, I would have put these two just within or just outside the top 10. I also expect Pulisic to be more important than both when his career is all said and done. 

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Treppy2 said:

Davies is ranked #13 on this list of the best North American football players ever: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/the-best-footballers-from-north-america-ever

As it says, "He's the youngest player on this list by some distance" so he should move up the list by the end of his career. He's the only Canadian on the list.

I agree with the rankings for the most part, but there are some interesting choices. I've been following football for a long time and had never heard of the players ranked #5, 7 and 11.

The thing that jumped out at me the most is the resemblance between Dwight Yorke and Ronaldinho.  I had to google their ages to see if it was possible.

Edit: after doing the math, I think it's more likely they have the same father, rather than Dwight being the dad.

Edited March 21 by costarg

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

The thing that jumped out at me the most is the resemblance between Dwight Yorke and Ronaldinho.  I had to google their ages to see if it was possible.

Can eat an apple through a letterbox, as the British saying goes.

[Treppy2]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Though that was the year Forrest let in 7 against Man U

Sadly, that wasn't even his worst performance against Man U!

[Kent]

27 minutes ago, Treppy2 said:

Sadly, that wasn't even his worst performance against Man U!

Yeah, I was going to correct him on the goal total before I realized he was talking about Forrest with West Ham, rather than Forrest with Ipswich. Sigh. Still a legend though.

[Treppy2]

49 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yeah, I was going to correct him on the goal total before I realized he was talking about Forrest with West Ham, rather than Forrest with Ipswich. Sigh. Still a legend though.

Well, Forrest makes it onto this 2019 list (at #50) of Concacaf's 50 best ever players: https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/07/09/50-greatest-concacaf-players-all-time

Apologies for derailing this thread!

[johnyb]

Surprised they didn't find a way to get Mia Hamm on the list

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[PegCityCam]

6 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

 

@narduch his teeth look fine🦷😁

[Joe MacCarthy]

I would have liked to have heard a quick post-mortem on the Jamaica game.  Also, had a bit of a cringe when he said he wanted to be captain, I wonder how he took the news.