The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

I don't think Davies is dictating terms to Bayern. It's offer and acceptance as in any contract. Bayern want to pay X and Davies "wants" Y...although I get the feeling that Davies wants out of Bayern and the $s are just smoke & mirrors. 

I don't think it's smoke and mirrors necessarily. This all started in earnest when Bayern cleared their front office suddenly and the new admin didn't exactly race to tend to Davies' contract. The AD who brought him in from Vancouver was fired without warning and his successor pretty much told him to be patient. I think it's a question of Bayern telling Davies he's one of the future faces of the club, one of their superstars who is a top priority, and then suddenly... he's not. That + his dip in form pretty much took all of the leverage out of Davies' hands, so he's got no reason to want to stay. I think he has an idea of the salary he thinks he deserves, but I don't think he's trying to sell his services to the highest bidder. He probably wants to leave because the situation sucks and he doesn't have a future under this BM administration, so while he'll leave for a higher salary, I think it's everything but the salary that will be the deciding factor.

 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Kadenge said:

I don't think Davies is dictating terms to Bayern. It's offer and acceptance as in any contract. Bayern want to pay X and Davies "wants" Y...although I get the feeling that Davies wants out of Bayern and the $s are just smoke & mirrors. 

The funny thing is, how would dropping Davies to the bench and giving him crumbs make him want to extend his contract?

It wouldn't... right?

Regardless if that's Tuchel's directive or Bayern's directive, it's the same difference. You're essentially telling the player they are surplus to requirements.

If I were Davies, and I went from starting in the UCL at 19, to then seeing my playing time dry up at 24, I wouldn't exactly want to stay. Would anyone?

13 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Wild that people think Bayern are not focused on winning and would rather settle perceived grievances with Davies and transfer rumours.  You can disagree, but Tuchel is putting out what he thinks is the best lineup to get a result.

Maybe that's true, but I suspect there is some grey area with that.

I find it hard to believe Mazraoui is now more trusted than Davies. Once the Davies to Madrid saga heated up, there has seemed to be a drop in Davies game time. Please correct me if I am wrong, because I don't want to type out some revisionist history, but this is how things have appeared to me (and I am not watching particularly closely, so again feel free to correct me).

At the same time, I don't think that Mazraoui is some scrub. Davies may be the better player (I don't doubt that), but this isn't like sitting Kane for Choupo-Moting. I think Tuchel is perfectly comfortable with playing him over Davies given what's going on with his contract, but I don't think Tuchel in his heart of hearts believes Davies is not part of the best lineup.

We'll see what Tuchel does in the final, if Bayern get that far. That would tell us more about who he thinks his best left back is, IMO. 

[GasPed]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think Tuchel is perfectly comfortable with playing him over Davies given what's going on with his contract, but I don't think Tuchel in his heart of hearts believes Davies is not part of the best lineup.

Yeah, I beg to differ, but Tuchel is playing Mazraoui exactly because he thinks he's better - or at least better in the system he's trying to play right now.

And tbf, this is exactly what he has done all year and why he has pissed off many Bayern players and fans alike.  He benched Kimmich, basically told him he's not a 6, then put him out at RB.  He benched Goretzka for a long time before finally putting him back on the pitch.  Same with Muller, same with Musiala - you name it - he's basically benched everyone for a period except for Kane and Dier.  I'm certain it's not political or contract related - it's just mad genius TT playing God.  The result has been a team that has underperformed all year, and never did find chemistry or an identity until now (sort of).  The fact that Davies is the unfortunate victim of his chaotic tinkering at this moment is just bad luck.  But most Bayern players have been in his shoes at one time or another this year.

[costarg]

32 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Yes, it is screwing up his legacy. Because if he can't return to Munich and still be greeted by the workers and staff and if the press doesn't want to interview him, he's lost something that is invaluable. 

When you play as a starter for one of those 10-12 great clubs in Europe, and win the Champions, that means for the rest of your life you are a legend, and whatever you do, they'll still love you. As long as it is not perceived that you are backstabbing. If you don't understand what that means, fine, but he could be a Bayern Munich legend or not. When they commemorate the his Champions and invite the team back to celebrate, say on the 25th anniversary, when he's 45, will he be there or not?

I know what this means at Barça, in fact every fan does. And at all the clubs with multiple Champions Leagues. There are players who are always welcome with open arms, whatever career they had. Even players like Laudrup or Schuster who ended up at Real Madrid, because they left in ways that we understood were partially our fault, and them going to the arch enemy was not considered a betrayal. 

Whether it is true or not that Davies is consciously leaving Bayern with bad blood and burning bridges, it does not matter, the perception is fundamental. Then he'll go to Madrid, and they'll fully expect him to play the same game with them in a few years. 

I personally think he is not very intelligent, is badly advised, his agent is bush league and amateur, and that he is screwing up something he'll never get back that is far more important than his next contract or his next piece of silverware.

 

I agree with a lot of this, well said.  I also feel we can agree that 2024 Bayern is also "not very intelligent, is badly advised, his agent is bush league and amateur, and that he is screwing up something".  Obviously not only regarding Davies, I mean generally and overall.  

Bayern has lost its way a little while back.  Does not seem like the same club and organization it was 2-3 years ago.

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Yeah, I beg to differ, but Tuchel is playing Mazraoui exactly because he thinks he's better - or at least better in the system he's trying to play right now.

And tbf, this is exactly what he has done all year and why he has pissed off many Bayern players and fans alike.  He benched Kimmich, basically told him he's not a 6, then put him out at RB.  He benched Goretzka for a long time before finally putting him back on the pitch.  Same with Muller, same with Musiala - you name it - he's basically benched everyone for a period except for Kane and Dier.  I'm certain it's not political or contract related - it's just mad genius TT playing God.  The result has been a team that has underperformed all year, and never did find chemistry or an identity until now (sort of).  The fact that Davies is the unfortunate victim of his chaotic tinkering at this moment is just bad luck.  But most Bayern players have been in his shoes at one time or another this year.

I do buy this interepretation, actually. This chaotic tinkering definitely occured, pretty much as you described. It's why points were dropped in the league, no doubt. And since Leverkusen have been perfect, it lost them the league. BUT they've managed to hang around in this particular tournament, because they are Bayern and have enough talent to get the job done. 

So, you've pretty much convinced me sir. The only thing is that Guerriero seemed to be preferred at one stage, now it's Mazaoui and only very recently? And in between Davies has started games as well? Is he settled on Mazaoui now after a long and chaotic tinkering period, or did he just determine Mazraoui is what he needs for this particular opponent (which is curiously after Davies)? I think you're probably right, but I still have question about it all....

[InglewoodJack]

36 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Yes, it is screwing up his legacy. Because if he can't return to Munich and still be greeted by the workers and staff and if the press doesn't want to interview him, he's lost something that is invaluable. 

When you play as a starter for one of those 10-12 great clubs in Europe, and win the Champions, that means for the rest of your life you are a legend, and whatever you do, they'll still love you. As long as it is not perceived that you are backstabbing. If you don't understand what that means, fine, but he could be a Bayern Munich legend or not. When they commemorate the his Champions and invite the team back to celebrate, say on the 25th anniversary, when he's 45, will he be there or not?

I know what this means at Barça, in fact every fan does. And at all the clubs with multiple Champions Leagues. There are players who are always welcome with open arms, whatever career they had. Even players like Laudrup or Schuster who ended up at Real Madrid, because they left in ways that we understood were partially our fault, and them going to the arch enemy was not considered a betrayal. 

Whether it is true or not that Davies is consciously leaving Bayern with bad blood and burning bridges, it does not matter, the perception is fundamental. Then he'll go to Madrid, and they'll fully expect him to play the same game with them in a few years. 

I personally think he is not very intelligent, is badly advised, his agent is bush league and amateur, and that he is screwing up something he'll never get back that is far more important than his next contract or his next piece of silverware.

 

Why would he not be? As of now, there have been absolutely zero indications from Davies' camp or Davies himself that he is unhappy at Bayern or frankly even interested in leaving. There are many rumours- hard to ignore, sure, and those rumours are likely based in some level of truth, but his "business" has leaked out to the press as a function of the sports journalism world, not because Davies himself has made anything public. And sure, perhaps his agent or he himself is leaking these things to Fab or any of the agent PR spokespeople, and they likely are! But he has not shown any of the telltale signs of a superstar giving up on his team. No cryptic social media post about "going somewhere he's respected", no public sale of his home in Munich, no open questioning of the coach in the media, none of his streaming buddies or influencers he hangs out with online leaking any inside information, hasn't been photographed with another club's jersey, etc. Hell, he hasn't even done the whole pissed off superstar who gets photographed drunk at the club every other week thing either. Off the pitch, he has been squeaky clean too- his teammate Kingsly Coman will certainly be at that celebration despite his conviction for domestic abuse. Bayern was even desperate to bring back Jeremie Boateng this winter whose list of offenses would make my post twice as long- and he's not even particularly that good anymore!

If there is a Bayern celebration of a team during Davies tenure, especially in a few decades, they will remember him as the wunderkind who came out of nowhere to become the best left back in the world at 21, faded in his later years with the club, moved on to another club in another league and went on to have an illustrious career, but had done all that he could with Bayern.

We don't know his relationship with the club itself or the workers or the infrastructure around the team. This reminds me of a story I've heard several times in the NBA- Russel Westbrook has a reputation very similar to how you are describing Davies- he's a diva, he's tried to change teams every other year, he insisted on being a starter long after he deserved it, has a sour look on his face and yells at fans. On the other hand, they've polled other players on who their favourite teammates are, and he's regularly top of the list. They've polled stadium workers, and he is almost always cited as one of the best players to work around (along with Steph Curry and Draymond Green, go figure). He tips the best at hotels and he is very gracious around the maintenace staff. Don't know how true any of that is about AD, but if we want to talk perception and how that affects the memory of his time at Bayern, then it's a question of what goes on behind closed doors and we likely won't know much about that until after his playing days are over.

I say this all with respect to your opinion, but I think the perception around this Davies saga is overblown, and we're seeing a slumping star player nearing the end of his time with a club, and who unfortunately plays a sport where he effectively has zero leverage to affect his destiny in any meaningful way, which now leaves us here.

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

Why would he not be? As of now, there have been absolutely zero indications from Davies' camp or Davies himself that he is unhappy at Bayern or frankly even interested in leaving. There are many rumours- hard to ignore, sure, and those rumours are likely based in some level of truth, but his "business" has leaked out to the press as a function of the sports journalism world, not because Davies himself has made anything public. And sure, perhaps his agent or he himself is leaking these things to Fab or any of the agent PR spokespeople, and they likely are! But he has not shown any of the telltale signs of a superstar giving up on his team. No cryptic social media post about "going somewhere he's respected", no public sale of his home in Munich, no open questioning of the coach in the media, none of his streaming buddies or influencers he hangs out with online leaking any inside information, hasn't been photographed with another club's jersey, etc. Hell, he hasn't even done the whole pissed off superstar who gets photographed drunk at the club every other week thing either. Off the pitch, he has been squeaky clean too- his teammate Kingsly Coman will certainly be at that celebration despite his conviction for domestic abuse. Bayern was even desperate to bring back Jeremie Boateng this winter whose list of offenses would make my post twice as long- and he's not even particularly that good anymore!

If there is a Bayern celebration of a team during Davies tenure, especially in a few decades, they will remember him as the wunderkind who came out of nowhere to become the best left back in the world at 21, faded in his later years with the club, moved on to another club in another league and went on to have an illustrious career, but had done all that he could with Bayern.

We don't know his relationship with the club itself or the workers or the infrastructure around the team. This reminds me of a story I've heard several times in the NBA- Russel Westbrook has a reputation very similar to how you are describing Davies- he's a diva, he's tried to change teams every other year, he insisted on being a starter long after he deserved it, has a sour look on his face and yells at fans. On the other hand, they've polled other players on who their favourite teammates are, and he's regularly top of the list. They've polled stadium workers, and he is almost always cited as one of the best players to work around (along with Steph Curry and Draymond Green, go figure). He tips the best at hotels and he is very gracious around the maintenace staff. Don't know how true any of that is about AD, but if we want to talk perception and how that affects the memory of his time at Bayern, then it's a question of what goes on behind closed doors and we likely won't know much about that until after his playing days are over.

I say this all with respect to your opinion, but I think the perception around this Davies saga is overblown, and we're seeing a slumping star player nearing the end of his time with a club, and who unfortunately plays a sport where he effectively has zero leverage to affect his destiny in any meaningful way, which now leaves us here.

I didn't read all of this, but got through the first few sentences and thought "fans aren't logical". 

I can totally see his Bayern legacy getting damaged in all of this, which is a real shame. I am coming around to the argument from @Unnamed Trialist that how this has been managed by the agent is .....subpar. 

[InglewoodJack]

48 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I find it hard to believe Mazraoui is now more trusted than Davies. Once the Davies to Madrid saga heated up, there has seemed to be a drop in Davies game time. Please correct me if I am wrong, because I don't want to type out some revisionist history, but this is how things have appeared to me (and I am not watching particularly closely, so again feel free to correct me).

Davies didn't look good against Arsenal, got himself taken out of the second leg in which Mazraoui looked good. We talk so much about how when our players are doing well we hope their clubs start them more often, but that's what's happening here too it seems. We also have to remember that these rumours also run parallel to him returning from injury as well. Harder to cement your position in the starting XI coming off injury when your form is poor and your backup(s) are playing very well.

 

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I didn't read all of this, but got through the first few sentences and thought "fans aren't logical". 

I can totally see his Bayern legacy getting damaged in all of this, which is a real shame. I am coming around to the argument from @Unnamed Trialist that how this has been managed by the agent is .....subpar. 

The summary is that Bayern has had players with much worse reputations be embraced by the club, and Davies hasn't exactly personally done any of the things that your run of the mill discontent superstar does when they want to leave their club. Look at Mbappe- he's been "here we go" to Madrid for like 3 seasons; do we not think that he won't be embraced as the best PSG player of all time long after he leaves? Hell, Macron would make him his vice president if he asked for it.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Yes, it is screwing up his legacy. Because if he can't return to Munich and still be greeted by the workers and staff and if the press doesn't want to interview him, he's lost something that is invaluable. 

When you play as a starter for one of those 10-12 great clubs in Europe, and win the Champions, that means for the rest of your life you are a legend, and whatever you do, they'll still love you. As long as it is not perceived that you are backstabbing. If you don't understand what that means, fine, but he could be a Bayern Munich legend or not. When they commemorate the his Champions and invite the team back to celebrate, say on the 25th anniversary, when he's 45, will he be there or not?

I know what this means at Barça, in fact every fan does. And at all the clubs with multiple Champions Leagues. There are players who are always welcome with open arms, whatever career they had. Even players like Laudrup or Schuster who ended up at Real Madrid, because they left in ways that we understood were partially our fault, and them going to the arch enemy was not considered a betrayal. 

Whether it is true or not that Davies is consciously leaving Bayern with bad blood and burning bridges, it does not matter, the perception is fundamental. Then he'll go to Madrid, and they'll fully expect him to play the same game with them in a few years. 

I personally think he is not very intelligent, is badly advised, his agent is bush league and amateur, and that he is screwing up something he'll never get back that is far more important than his next contract or his next piece of silverware.

I get what you're saying, but it sounds like Bayern Munich fans are not currently happy with the management of the club and by all accounts Davies is not the only player looking to get out.

Plus, as big a deal as he is to us, I don't think he is (or ever will be/would have been) viewed as big a deal by BM fans. I think he's a very good piece of a great team, but one they'll view as replaceable.

[InglewoodJack]

12 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I get what you're saying, but it sounds like Bayern Munich fans are not currently happy with the management of the club and by all accounts Davies is not the only player looking to get out.

Plus, as big a deal as he is to us, I don't think he is (or ever will be/would have been) viewed as big a deal by BM fans. I think he's a very good piece of a great team, but one they'll view as replaceable.

I think if this is the end of the road for him at Bayern, his legacy will mirror PK Subban’s in Montreal extremely closely. 

[kacbru]

30 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Davies didn't look good against Arsenal, got himself taken out of the second leg in which Mazraoui looked good. We talk so much about how when our players are doing well we hope their clubs start them more often, but that's what's happening here too it seems. We also have to remember that these rumours also run parallel to him returning from injury as well. Harder to cement your position in the starting XI coming off injury when your form is poor and your backup(s) are playing very well.

 

The summary is that Bayern has had players with much worse reputations be embraced by the club, and Davies hasn't exactly personally done any of the things that your run of the mill discontent superstar does when they want to leave their club. Look at Mbappe- he's been "here we go" to Madrid for like 3 seasons; do we not think that he won't be embraced as the best PSG player of all time long after he leaves? Hell, Macron would make him his vice president if he asked for it.

Agreed - and let's not forget, that's exactly the scenario that gave Davies his opportunity when he arrived.

[GasPed]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

I do buy this interepretation, actually. This chaotic tinkering definitely occured, pretty much as you described. It's why points were dropped in the league, no doubt. And since Leverkusen have been perfect, it lost them the league. BUT they've managed to hang around in this particular tournament, because they are Bayern and have enough talent to get the job done. 

So, you've pretty much convinced me sir. The only thing is that Guerriero seemed to be preferred at one stage, now it's Mazaoui and only very recently? And in between Davies has started games as well? Is he settled on Mazaoui now after a long and chaotic tinkering period, or did he just determine Mazraoui is what he needs for this particular opponent (which is curiously after Davies)? I think you're probably right, but I still have question about it all....

You're absolutely right Guerreiro was the starter when Davies was injured in February, but then he got injured and Davies got his job back.  However, Davies' performances were uneven, and he was the starter for the two games (against Dortmund and Heidenheim) that basically lost the title for Bayern.  Three days later he was getting his second yellow against Arsenal and the very next game Mazraoui was installed.

In my estimation, Tuchel has never really known how to use Davies as a weapon.  Nagelsmann used him extensively as a 5th attacker, but Tuchel wants him to play just like the RB - defense first, overlap only if there's a clear opportunity, be the first man back to help the CBs on the counter.  In that traditional FB role, one could well make the case that both Guerreiro and Mazraoui are just as good if not better.

But you also made the very good point that there is another narrative going around amongst Bayern fans - i.e. Davies' mind is already in Bernabeu, he isn't even trying anymore, he's sulking, he's a traitor, he's spoiled, his agent is a snake, etc.  The narrative is basically so prevalent now that I'd say most fans actually want to see him gone.  Some have said too that if Madrid doesn't offer at least $50M, Bayern should keep him and staple him to the bench all next year - that's how vindictive they are.  But from what I've seen, Davies may have lost his mojo, but he has never lost his effort or enthusiasm.  He cheered the Arsenal win as if was on the pitch, partied in the locker room like only he can.  And today celebrated Kane's goal like he was on the pitch assisting it.  So I frankly think this narrative is BS, or at least overblown. 

So bottomline - I don't think Davies being benched has anything to do with his contract or contact with RM.  And I don't think his attitude or loyalty has waned - at least not from what I've seen.  Still, it's probably best for all parties if they move on. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Davies didn't look good against Arsenal, got himself taken out of the second leg in which Mazraoui looked good. We talk so much about how when our players are doing well we hope their clubs start them more often, but that's what's happening here too it seems. We also have to remember that these rumours also run parallel to him returning from injury as well. Harder to cement your position in the starting XI coming off injury when your form is poor and your backup(s) are playing very well.

 

The summary is that Bayern has had players with much worse reputations be embraced by the club, and Davies hasn't exactly personally done any of the things that your run of the mill discontent superstar does when they want to leave their club. Look at Mbappe- he's been "here we go" to Madrid for like 3 seasons; do we not think that he won't be embraced as the best PSG player of all time long after he leaves? Hell, Macron would make him his vice president if he asked for it.

Only that PSG isn't a truly big club, huge part of the fanbase isn't rooted, the mentality is mercenary, and it doesn't have half the history of any of the other 20 best clubs in Europe right now.

So they don't care, really. Even fans of Arsenal, to pick a similar big club with no Champions League (though aces more history), judge a player on loyalty and dedication and don't take kindly to being dicked around by a guy flirting with a rival club.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

You're absolutely right Guerreiro was the starter when Davies was injured in February, but then he got injured and Davies got his job back.  However, Davies' performances were uneven, and he was the starter for the two games (against Dortmund and Heidenheim) that basically lost the title for Bayern.  Three days later he was getting his second yellow against Arsenal and the very next game Mazraoui was installed.

In my estimation, Tuchel has never really known how to use Davies as a weapon.  Nagelsmann used him extensively as a 5th attacker, but Tuchel wants him to play just like the RB - defense first, overlap only if there's a clear opportunity, be the first man back to help the CBs on the counter.  In that traditional FB role, one could well make the case that both Guerreiro and Mazraoui are just as good if not better.

But you also made the very good point that there is another narrative going around amongst Bayern fans - i.e. Davies' mind is already in Bernabeu, he isn't even trying anymore, he's sulking, he's a traitor, he's spoiled, his agent is a snake, etc.  The narrative is basically so prevalent now that I'd say most fans actually want to see him gone.  Some have said too that if Madrid doesn't offer at least $50M, Bayern should keep him and staple him to the bench all next year - that's how vindictive they are.  But from what I've seen, Davies may have lost his mojo, but he has never lost his effort or enthusiasm.  He cheered the Arsenal win as if was on the pitch, partied in the locker room like only he can.  And today celebrated Kane's goal like he was on the pitch assisting it.  So I frankly think this narrative is BS, or at least overblown. 

So bottomline - I don't think Davies being benched has anything to do with his contract or contact with RM.  And I don't think his attitude or loyalty has waned - at least not from what I've seen.  Still, it's probably best for all parties if they move on. 

You may be right in part of this, but not on when Bayern lost the title. I posted this above, defending him. He was injured in a win vs Moenchengladbach early February, next game they lost 3-0 to Leverkusen, opening the breach. Then lost to Bochum, beat Leipzig, drew Freiburg. Dropped 8 points in a month without Davies and the league was lost by early March.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

You're absolutely right Guerreiro was the starter when Davies was injured in February, but then he got injured and Davies got his job back.  However, Davies' performances were uneven, and he was the starter for the two games (against Dortmund and Heidenheim) that basically lost the title for Bayern.  Three days later he was getting his second yellow against Arsenal and the very next game Mazraoui was installed.

In my estimation, Tuchel has never really known how to use Davies as a weapon.  Nagelsmann used him extensively as a 5th attacker, but Tuchel wants him to play just like the RB - defense first, overlap only if there's a clear opportunity, be the first man back to help the CBs on the counter.  In that traditional FB role, one could well make the case that both Guerreiro and Mazraoui are just as good if not better.

But you also made the very good point that there is another narrative going around amongst Bayern fans - i.e. Davies' mind is already in Bernabeu, he isn't even trying anymore, he's sulking, he's a traitor, he's spoiled, his agent is a snake, etc.  The narrative is basically so prevalent now that I'd say most fans actually want to see him gone.  Some have said too that if Madrid doesn't offer at least $50M, Bayern should keep him and staple him to the bench all next year - that's how vindictive they are.  But from what I've seen, Davies may have lost his mojo, but he has never lost his effort or enthusiasm.  He cheered the Arsenal win as if was on the pitch, partied in the locker room like only he can.  And today celebrated Kane's goal like he was on the pitch assisting it.  So I frankly think this narrative is BS, or at least overblown. 

So bottomline - I don't think Davies being benched has anything to do with his contract or contact with RM.  And I don't think his attitude or loyalty has waned - at least not from what I've seen.  Still, it's probably best for all parties if they move on. 

Man, with everything he's gone through in his life, that has to be tough. At the beginning, adored by the Bayern fans during a treble winning season, repeatedly showered in praise and declared best left back in the world, winning multiple awards and Bundesliga titles. Now toward the end, scorned by the majority of the fanbase and branded a trator, deserving of being stapled to the bench. He seems like such a lovable guy and I am sure that hasn't changed, yet the fans changed how they view him and treat him. Just seems like it'd be very tough for a personality like Davies.

It's a real shame and I think the agent rightly deserves criticism, but the whole Bayern Machine (from decision makers to fans to media) seems to have thrown him under the bus. They all collectively deserve as much or more blame than the agent. Fans react to the media and the media latch onto comments from the club, who've put out some negative tidbits in response to the agent.

It's a mess and a shame seeing his legacy at Bayern tarnished like this...

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

Man, with everything he's gone through in his life, that has to be tough. At the beginning, adored by the Bayern fans during a treble winning season, repeatedly showered in praise and declared best left back in the world, winning multiple awards and Bundesliga titles. Now toward the end, scorned by the majority of the fanbase and branded a trator, deserving of being stapled to the bench. He seems like such a lovable guy and I am sure that hasn't changed, yet the fans changed how they view him and treat him. Just seems like it'd be very tough for a personality like Davies.

It's a real shame and I think the agent rightly deserves criticism, but the whole Bayern Machine (from decision makers to fans to media) seems to have thrown him under the bus. They all collectively deserve as much or more blame than the agent. Fans react to the media and the media latch onto comments from the club, who've put out some negative tidbits in response to the agent.

It's a mess and a shame seeing his legacy at Bayern tarnished like this...

I will say it is far from the worst display I have seen from a player and/or their entourage seemingly wanting to move on.  It is nice to be liked by everyone but pretty much not universally possible.  Hard to see our guy get run down but that unfortunately, is a part of football, even if it isn't at the highest level. 

The more concerning thing to me is him not looking like a good leftback in a slightly different system.   Some of it, as has been mentioned, is coming back from injuries and the malaise of the team as a whole but I don't think we can put it all on everything/everyone else. 

I said a while ago that he might need to go down half a level to prove what he can do in a real system up higher; maybe still and option.  I would love to see him in a role like Frimpong at Bayer Leverkusen, the right mix of providing defensive cover and still being a huge part of terrorizing opposition defences.  I just don't want him to move and sit even if it's Real Madrid. 

But above all, no mattter how much we read and watch, we aren't in the rooms where these stories come from and neither are mostly are the journos.  Worth remembering about the good and bad.   

Edited May 1 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

13 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Look at Mbappe- he's been "here we go" to Madrid for like 3 seasons; do we not think that he won't be embraced as the best PSG player of all time long after he leaves? Hell, Macron would make him his vice president if he asked for it.

 

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Only that PSG isn't a truly big club, huge part of the fanbase isn't rooted, the mentality is mercenary, and it doesn't have half the history of any of the other 20 best clubs in Europe right now.

So they don't care, really. Even fans of Arsenal, to pick a similar big club with no Champions League (though aces more history), judge a player on loyalty and dedication and don't take kindly to being dicked around by a guy flirting with a rival club.

Need to add an important difference in the Mbappe situation.  PSG fans know and understand he also plays for France and will most likely bring them another WC while being arguably the best player in the world at the moment.  Big difference there.  I mean is there anyone that can do a better job at Mbappe's position right now?  I can't imagine him getting benched regardless of drama and contractual issues.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

 

Need to add an important difference in the Mbappe situation.  PSG fans know and understand he also plays for France and will most likely bring them another WC while being arguably the best player in the world at the moment.  Big difference there.  I mean is there anyone that can do a better job at Mbappe's position right now?  I can't imagine him getting benched regardless of drama and contractual issues.

I agree that there’s that aspect, and also the fact that PSG doesn’t exactly have the lore that Bayern does, but regardless, if you grew up a PSG fan over the last decade, he’s your club icon,  he’s who brought all this glory to your club, and despite all that, he has been trying to leave desperately for years- to the point where the head of state had to meet with him personally to convince him to stay which only delayed his move by a year.

 

Bayern is a bigger club and Mbappe is a bigger player than Davies, for sure, but with that is also the fact that Davies isn’t the face of Bayern. He’s a young player who shocked the world by how great he was as a teenager, brought glory to the club, faded, then left. I think players of that profile are remembered for the good moments, but there have been so many worse departures and so many worse offenders who got embraced by the club afterwards. If there’s some celebration of this generation of Bayern Munich, on the topic of Davies, I think people will remember “man, what a talent. When he was on, he was the best in the world. Shame he couldn’t be that consistent with us though. But man, what great moments”.

I’d be inclined to agree with UT if he was more openly antagonistic with BM. One of my close friends’ entire family continues to pray on Ballou Tabla for the offense of having practiced in a TFC jersey at some point while still with Montreal. That’s the stuff you need to do to truly ruin your reputation.

More I think about it, Davies really is Bayern’s PK Subban. Habs dans really soured on him during the contract disputes, the diva behaviour, not a team player, weren’t too heartbroken when he was traded. Now that he’s retired, it’s all different. When him and price came out and did the triple low high five last season, not a dry eye in the crowd. We remember him for his Norris season, that first playoff run, the hit on Marchand, all of that. The rest becomes irrelevant with time just as it will be with Davies. 

[InglewoodJack]

34 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

I said a while ago that he might need to go down half a level to prove what he can do in a real system up higher; maybe still and option.  I would love to see him in a role like Frimpong at Bayer Leverkusen, the right mix of providing defensive cover and still being a huge part of terrorizing opposition defences.  I just don't want him to move and sit even if it's Real Madrid. 

I wonder if he can have a second act as a Grimaldo type player. Wonder how he might do at a club like PSG if they sign him as an LW and if it doesn’t work, they move him back to LB. Relative step down, big club still. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

27 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I wonder if he can have a second act as a Grimaldo type player. Wonder how he might do at a club like PSG if they sign him as an LW and if it doesn’t work, they move him back to LB. Relative step down, big club still. 

I don't think he has the ball precision of Grimaldo (yet?), the latter is one of their set piece takers has a great cross and shot from long range. He and Frimpong are very different players but shows how a coach can use different skill sets in his system. 

Davies is a way better athlete than Grimaldo though and I think can contribute more defensively while doing the things Frimpong does on the other side.   

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I will say it is far from the worst display I have seen from a player and/or their entourage seemingly wanting to move on.  It is nice to be liked by everyone but pretty much not universally possible.  Hard to see our guy get run down but that unfortunately, is a part of football, even if it isn't at the highest level. 

The more concerning thing to me is him not looking like a good leftback in a slightly different system.   Some of it, as has been mentioned, is coming back from injuries and the malaise of the team as a whole but I don't think we can put it all on everything/everyone else. 

I said a while ago that he might need to go down half a level to prove what he can do in a real system up higher; maybe still and option.  I would love to see him in a role like Frimpong at Bayer Leverkusen, the right mix of providing defensive cover and still being a huge part of terrorizing opposition defences.  I just don't want him to move and sit even if it's Real Madrid. 

But above all, no mattter how much we read and watch, we aren't in the rooms where these stories come from and neither are mostly are the journos.  Worth remembering about the good and bad.   

The consensus has been that he's looked bad and I won't fight that consensus because in all honesty I haven't been watching Bayern much this season. I guess it's hard to imagine Davies struggling so much. Has he actually been poor, or has he just failed to impress like we are used to? Davies has set a pretty high standard for himself, afterall. 

As per soccerway, Davies has played 1,798 minutes in the league to date. That is over 26 games and 21 starts.

Granted, I am just looking at the stats here and admittedly can count the games I have watched him in on one hand this season, but I have watched him enough at Bayern to know how things have typically gone since the heights of the treble winning season: Davies is generally solid, chips in offensively and defensively, has an excellent game every now and then, but has a very high floor and rarely if ever is the worst player on the pitch, hence the sheer amount of games and starts he's racked up. 

So I will trust in you guys - has he REALLY been that bad? It really sounds like his worst stretch, but yet he's racked up some pretty respectable minutes and starts for a player who has been poor - and for Bayern no less.

Also, at this stage I will disagree that he should drop down to the likes of Bayer Leverkusen. Awesome they won the league, take nothing away from them as they've been flawless, but I personally need to see multiple seasons where they can be an established no. 2 in Germany before I advocate our highest profile player go there. 

[Kadenge]

28 minutes ago, Obinna said:

So I will trust in you guys - has he REALLY been that bad?

NO. There are several factors that have contributed to his performance level this year, most off which have been stated in various posts. In my opinion the #1 issue: his attributes and strengths that made him a star under Flick & Nagelsmann, don't suit how TT wants Bayern to play. #2 Bayern have not been able to replace the quality CBs they had with Alaba & Boateng, both seasoned vets. There's been a lot of turnover at that position over the past 3 yrs and it hasn't helped  Davies or Bayern defensively. Finally TT looks like a very volatile mgr and I cant think that's conducive to any of the young players at Bayern.

[Mattd97]

I'm just checking that were still talking about the guy with the 5th highest average fotmob score on the team, as a defender, behind kane, sane, and 0.17 behind musiala and and 0.06 behind kimmich. That's the horrible form stupid 24 year old that's tarnishing his legacy right?

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

40 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

NO. There are several factors that have contributed to his performance level this year, most off which have been stated in various posts. In my opinion the #1 issue: his attributes and strengths that made him a star under Flick & Nagelsmann, don't suit how TT wants Bayern to play. #2 Bayern have not been able to replace the quality CBs they had with Alaba & Boateng, both seasoned vets. There's been a lot of turnover at that position over the past 3 yrs and it hasn't helped  Davies or Bayern defensively. Finally TT looks like a very volatile mgr and I cant think that's conducive to any of the young players at Bayern.

 

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

The consensus has been that he's looked bad and I won't fight that consensus because in all honesty I haven't been watching Bayern much this season. I guess it's hard to imagine Davies struggling so much. Has he actually been poor, or has he just failed to impress like we are used to? Davies has set a pretty high standard for himself, afterall. 

As per soccerway, Davies has played 1,798 minutes in the league to date. That is over 26 games and 21 starts.

Granted, I am just looking at the stats here and admittedly can count the games I have watched him in on one hand this season, but I have watched him enough at Bayern to know how things have typically gone since the heights of the treble winning season: Davies is generally solid, chips in offensively and defensively, has an excellent game every now and then, but has a very high floor and rarely if ever is the worst player on the pitch, hence the sheer amount of games and starts he's racked up. 

So I will trust in you guys - has he REALLY been that bad? It really sounds like his worst stretch, but yet he's racked up some pretty respectable minutes and starts for a player who has been poor - and for Bayern no less.

Also, at this stage I will disagree that he should drop down to the likes of Bayer Leverkusen. Awesome they won the league, take nothing away from them as they've been flawless, but I personally need to see multiple seasons where they can be an established no. 2 in Germany before I advocate our highest profile player go there. 

That bad  - no.  He does well in most situations. 

That said he has struggled in some games, especially against possession-based sustained attacks.

Even the 2 games before the Arsenal game he played, he legitimately was poor, in my view. Despite getting a nice assist up the pitch, I think he probably could have done better on all three of the comeback goals from Heidenheim.  Schoolboy error of following the ball and leaving his man wide open for the second goal against Dortmund. 

 

His defensiveness awareness and instincts when backed up has never been his strength.  I see the own goal he scored against us in the Japan game as part of that. 

 

Him going to a team like Leverkusen was not the intent of the comment, playing a similar role for someone was.   

 

They have had a lot of injuries evenwhere to be fair.  Now part of that hurts him but it also means he has got a lot of minutes, that he might not have if they had options.  

[costarg]

10 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

I'm just checking that were still talking about the guy with the 5th highest average fotmob score on the team, as a defender, behind kane, sane, and 0.17 behind musiala and and 0.06 behind kimmich. That's the horrible form stupid 24 year old that's tarnishing his legacy right?

This.  Some of the comments are pretty extreme and had me scratching my head.  Comments about his defensive play vs Saka are borderline ignorant.

We know he does not suit TT's system.  TT is on his way out.  TT is the bad fit, not Davies.

Davies just looks a little bored out there, like he knows he could do so much more.  That's the worst we can pin on him.  This coming from a guy that feels he tries to do too much with CANMNT, it's the opposite at his club.  His sweet spot is somewhere in between.