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1 hour ago, BradMack said:

We can add Erik Hurtado, Cristian Dean, and as far as taking up roster spots Cole Seiler and Spencer Richey.... You could even go back as far as Omar Selgado... It is a shame that the Whitecaps have consistently wasted everything they put into their residency. It is either one of two things.... 

1) The residency is not as good as they love to claim it is, therefore they are massively mismanaging the huge amount of money they put into it.

2) The coaches are afraid to play the kids for fear of being fired, not really the coaches fault, but don't sign these kids if youre never going to play them and you'll just stall their careers. 

I find it very hard to believe that in the whole 8 years there have only been 2 players good enough to break in, Sam Adekugbe and Alphonso. Alphonso is obviously one of the best prospects on the planet, and people might forget how highly regarded Sam was, and its not like he's playing at a level  below MLS right now.

The Whitecaps either need to make a change in their philosophy, or the structure of their residency. 

Just as in my post above...look at each of those guys individually. They got chances because they were better than anything the Whitecaps had in their system. People like to laugh at Hurtado, but he scored some very nice goals, and that is going to get you more opportunities. As the performances have dropped off, so have his minutes. He barely plays anymore.

Dean was the ultimate tease. You watched him in training and he looked like a force. You put him in games...not so much. Even then he didn't even reach 15 total league appearances. But who were these CBs that were supposed to be taking Dean's place? Jackson Farmer? The guy can't even start for Calgary in the PDL.

Cole Seiler played 2 league games! Seriously, is this the threshold we are complaining about?

Have the Whitecaps done a good enough job developing their residency players? Probably not. Have they ignored their youth players in favor of equal foreign talent? No chance.

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17 minutes ago, masster said:

Just as in my post above...look at each of those guys individually. They got chances because they were better than anything the Whitecaps had in their system. People like to laugh at Hurtado, but he scored some very nice goals, and that is going to get you more opportunities. As the performances have dropped off, so have his minutes. He barely plays anymore.

Dean was the ultimate tease. You watched him in training and he looked like a force. You put him in games...not so much. Even then he didn't even reach 15 total league appearances. But who were these CBs that were supposed to be taking Dean's place? Jackson Farmer? The guy can't even start for Calgary in the PDL.

Cole Seiler played 2 league games! Seriously, is this the threshold we are complaining about?

Have the Whitecaps done a good enough job developing their residency players? Probably not. Have they ignored their youth players in favor of equal foreign talent? No chance.

I might have jumped into this without reading the whole conversation, so this misunderstanding is completely my fault as I did not make my stance clear. I do not believe that the 'caps are consistently shunning Canadian youth in favour of equal foreign talent. I do believe this happens occasionally, with players such as Russel Teibert who I believe deserves more than he gets, I also believe he could leave Vancouver if he wanted to acheive more but he chose to re sign and seems happy accepting his role. 

What I do believe, is that the Whitecaps are stalling certain players development by signing players simply for the optics, without a real plan to play them in more than the Canadian Championship games. Now, are these players better, safer picks to play in the first team than the journeymen Americans you can easily acquire? No probably not right now, but thats the issue, "right now". You're dealing with potential, and when you're pretending to be a club that develops players in this great residency program, you need to act like a club who develops players.

Take for example my favourite club Olympique Lyonnais, they have the money to buy great players who have a ton of experience, and they often do. But they consistently give youth players a chance and while initially it can be a little bit rough, they stick with it. Players like Nabil Fekir, Alexandre Lacazette, Samuel Umtiti, Corentin Tolliso, the list goes on and on. None of these guys were better than the guys they replaced when they replaced them. That is really the key, the only way these players get better is to be thrown into the deep end, with a good team around them. Who knows how Jackson Farmer might have turned out if he was given a chance to learn on the field with a good team around him. Perhaps he's not a great example, but how about Bryce Alderson or Caleb Clarke? How might Marco Bustos have looked if he was allowed some games at #10 with quality players around him? People will say that he didn't look good in USL but who on the WC2 team looked good? 

I don't have an issue with wanting to win as many games as possible and if that is your only priority then you can do that, but don't pretend otherwise, and don't stall careers by doing so. The Whitecaps and by the way, most of MLS have an identity issue. They don't know what they want to be, all they know is that they want money. I think only RSL and NYRB have a real commitment to youth and development and it seems to work out pretty well for them. I also think it is a crime that TFC hasn't done a way better job producing players, and Greg Vanney has infuriated me at times with his side project Ben Spencer. 

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I've always suspected that the play-off system combined with a short-term outlook plays a large role in the lack of development of North American talent. Most teams are in the play-off race and the coach's first priority is to make the playoffs - if not, he may get sacked. If not, the team will draw less of a crowd and be financially harmed.

Mid-table by Christmas or the New Year in Europe means safety and start to plan for the next year, but mid-table by the half-way point in the MLS means a chance to make the playoffs. Coaches, quite naturally, do not start to plan for the next year nor do they play the youth in this situation.

I could be wrong, and interested to hear if others think there's something to this...

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6 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

I've always suspected that the play-off system combined with a short-term outlook plays a large role in the lack of development of North American talent. Most teams are in the play-off race and the coach's first priority is to make the playoffs - if not, he may get sacked. If not, the team will draw less of a crowd and be financially harmed.

Mid-table by Christmas or the New Year in Europe means safety and start to plan for the next year, but mid-table by the half-way point in the MLS means a chance to make the playoffs. Coaches, quite naturally, do not start to plan for the next year nor do they play the youth in this situation.

I could be wrong, and interested to hear if others think there's something to this...

I certainly think this is a factor. Other than the top tier teams fighting for the league title/Champions League/UEFA spots and possibly the bottom 3 trying to stave off relegation, you do see teams in Europe playing their youth. Everton is a prime example and one could also look to Spurs, who have been able to replace previous stalwarts like Walker and Rose with young players. For a team like VWCs without the budget of TFC, I have always been disappointed by Robinson not being patient and playing Bustos/Adekugbe/Froese etc. They were cheap, young, homegrown talent and  could have had success if they were  surrounded with better players. It  all comes down to balance...financial and talent. The possibility of a playoff spot is  a factor for the coach. I don't watch a lot of US based MLS teams, so the question is do teams that are clearly out of the playoffs play their young players for the duration of the league in MLS?

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On 7/25/2018 at 3:48 AM, BCM1555362349 said:

I've always suspected that the play-off system combined with a short-term outlook plays a large role in the lack of development of North American talent. Most teams are in the play-off race and the coach's first priority is to make the playoffs - if not, he may get sacked. If not, the team will draw less of a crowd and be financially harmed.

Mid-table by Christmas or the New Year in Europe means safety and start to plan for the next year, but mid-table by the half-way point in the MLS means a chance to make the playoffs. Coaches, quite naturally, do not start to plan for the next year nor do they play the youth in this situation.

I could be wrong, and interested to hear if others think there's something to this...

The opposite could be said of the bottom of the table. In NA sports there is no relegation, so there is no fear keeping young players on the bench for bottom teams, whereas in a league with relegation they will still need to fight for every point they can get.

A lot of people hate drafts, and I totally understand why, but one positive to it that I can see is that the best players (ie: the guys with the highest ceiling) can are drafted onto bad teams where they can get significant playing time, rather than being buried behind a team of allstars like what can happen for academy kids on the biggest clubs.

That being said, it's hard to compare most NA sports to soccer in this regard, because soccer is the only one with limited subs. In hockey or basketball you can play a young player in every game, even if they don't get a ton of playing time in each game.

I think there are a lot of variables and pluses and minuses in both systems. It's hard to say for certain if one is clearly better than the other, especially since different players will react differently to different systems. One kid might thrive by being thrown in the deep end, another might need to ease into it a bit.

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You get teams playing meaningless, pressure free games in both setups. The difference is that with a draft and a playoff setup, the worst teams in the league are given the responsibility of developing young players. Not only do they have the most pressure free games to test players in, they also are given the best prospects through the draft system. If I had my choice, I wouldn't want the least ambitious and most poorly managed clubs to be responsible for player development. 

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8 hours ago, Kent said:

The opposite could be said of the bottom of the table. In NA sports there is no relegation, so there is no fear keeping young players on the bench for bottom teams, whereas in a league with relegation they will still need to fight for every point they can get.

A lot of people hate drafts, and I totally understand why, but one positive to it that I can see is that the best players (ie: the guys with the highest ceiling) can are drafted onto bad teams where they can get significant playing time, rather than being buried behind a team of allstars like what can happen for academy kids on the biggest clubs.

That being said, it's hard to compare most NA sports to soccer in this regard, because soccer is the only one with limited subs. In hockey or basketball you can play a young player in every game, even if they don't get a ton of playing time in each game.

I think there are a lot of variables and pluses and minuses in both systems. It's hard to say for certain if one is clearly better than the other, especially since different players will react differently to different systems. One kid might thrive by being thrown in the deep end, another might need to ease into it a bit.

I see your points, and do agree. The lack of relegation should mean more younger players in the latter half of the season. But again, that's not in the coaches interest. What also cuts against one of them to some degree is when the league has too many teams making the play-offs. They're fighting for that last spot for far too long. I just saw a few TFC quotes over the last few days and they're all about trying to get into that last spot... I think this hurts development.

But with a patient owner and good coach, younger players could thrive in a system with a draft and without relegation. See Cubs and Astros, in baseball. They (maybe intentionally) tanked, stocked good picks and became great.

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5 hours ago, Northvansteve said:

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Great post, beautifully said by MDS, thanks for sharing. Experience, perseverance and attitude like that is what usually separates those that make it. Wishing the kid the best, put your head down, work hard and remember no journey is easy. 

Edited by apbsmith
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As I noted in Whiecaps thread, good comments by MDS but this isn't the first time we have heard about a Canadian youth player feeling entitled. Not sure why they feel this way given Bair & 99% of Canadian youth players historically haven't shown anything of note. 

It's no wonder our players are so mentally fragile and can't handle the pressure playing in WC qualifying matches in Central America. 

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3 hours ago, red card said:

As I noted in Whiecaps thread, good comments by MDS but this isn't the first time we have heard about a Canadian youth player feeling entitled. Not sure why they feel this way given Bair & 99% of Canadian youth players historically haven't shown anything of note. 

It's no wonder our players are so mentally fragile and can't handle the pressure playing in WC qualifying matches in Central America. 

Perhaps it is a sense of achievement and then the entitlement subconsciously forms?  I mean you make a club academy in compared to other players you've grown up with? Some swagger even without negative intentions are going to happen, staying level as possible and working hard is key I guess.

I read an article around half a year ago about academy kids aged 12-14 years old but if they don't make the first team by the time they are 21-22 they are so mentally burnt out from various forms of pressure and multiple other factors they completely walk away from the sport. Where almost all of them would still be good enough to still play in lower leagues and make a quality working wage. It was quite a fascinating read and made alot of sense, wish I could find it.

I'm just glad he's still out there playing footy and working hard. For me that shows he has the right mind set, is not afraid to work hard and has accepted there will be hiccups and set backs along the way. All the best to him.

MAK is one of the most epic positive examples of working hard (not the entitlement part) and that was all within the last 12-18 months.

Edited by apbsmith
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He has physicality, is deceivingly quick and also deceivingly skilled with the ball at his feet. In the games last year he worked hard for the team too, tracking back and defending surprisingly well. While I don't think he is the next Phonzie or David, the above could absolutely happen and he become a big league player. Fingers crossed.

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20-22 That's the age for someone like a Gent to buy him and from their perspective make money on him. If he has a good season that would be 1 and half because once he moved to the wing in back half of last year he was excellent. With his size the natural instinct was to put him at CF but he ended up being far more comfortable running at defenders rather than play with his back to them. Anyways just my prediction, I see something in him that isn't typical

Edited by SpursFlu
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On 1/7/2020 at 7:56 PM, toontownman said:

He has physicality, is deceivingly quick and also deceivingly skilled with the ball at his feet. In the games last year he worked hard for the team too, tracking back and defending surprisingly well. While I don't think he is the next Phonzie or David, the above could absolutely happen and he become a big league player. Fingers crossed.

I liked the deceiving quickness/pace for a big guy as well his nimble dribbling moves and crosses but I really didn't think that he played to his size enough.  He got dispossessed with his back to the defender too often (that's probably why we didn't see him more in the CF role).  If he builds up his strength and compete level against more physical players than he'll get his game to the next level.  He has several good qualities and he took advantage of his opportunity when the other international signings disappointed to varying degrees.  Like you, I hope he continues to develop and build on his promising debut season.

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