Jump to content

Theo Bair


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 613
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

3 hours ago, shorty said:

Froese is close to that.  Injured now, but knocking on the first team door at Fortuna.

He was 1 time on the bench last season, that was in D2. I think he's a real long shot for minutes this year. A loan in January (hope sooner) is more likely. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Northvansteve said:

David Norman has not seen a single minute of play this season. Sean Melvin has been sitting on the bench with backup Brian Rowe getting all the starts despite a putrid goals-against record. Levis has barely seen any time even when de Jong was injured and all they had was the ridiculous Brek Shea.

Robbo also quickly gave up on Adekugbe and Froese. And this doesn't even get into the young non-Canadian players that have failed to develop.

Maybe it's bad luck or overrated talent but Robbo's record with young players is pretty horrifying.

Not true. Adekugbe wanted Europe and the Whitecaps facilitated that happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How many times does this garbage debate have to happen? Adekugbe won the starting job, got seriously injured, then due to bad form and a bad attitude never could take it back from Harvey. He then sulked his way out of the Whitecaps, whom went out of their way to get Adekugbe (like Froese, like Zanatta) into a club situation in Europe he liked with basically no compensation for the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent developing him (and them).

Wonder why the 'caps are spending less on soccer? Spend tens of millions of dollars on youth development to get almost zero return in on-field performance or transfer fees and then the CSA comes along and bootstraps a major competitor to you in your home markets. What a great deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

How many times does this garbage debate have to happen? Adekugbe won the starting job, got seriously injured, then due to bad form and a bad attitude never could take it back from Harvey. He then sulked his way out of the Whitecaps, whom went out of their way to get Adekugbe (like Froese, like Zanatta) into a club situation in Europe he liked with basically no compensation for the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent developing him (and them).

Wonder why the 'caps are spending less on soccer? Spend tens of millions of dollars on youth development to get almost zero return in on-field performance or transfer fees and then the CSA comes along and bootstraps a major competitor to you in your home markets. What a great deal.

Vancouver did get compensation for Adekugbe and if it wasn’t as high as they liked that’s their business problem.. he had 16 MLS appearances over 4 years and still got them $... what do you expect?  And much of that was probably due to the big bad CSA giving him Canada caps. 

Sorry but if you don’t play players you “develop” you’re not going to make big $.  Even players who do play don’t yield high returns so how could anyone be so ignorant?  Vancouver would have received compensation for Zanatta as well.. even as an academy youth.  Davies plays and will get you $.. if the Caps sold Teibert after 2011 he would have got them money.  But now?  He’s 25 and washed out from years of little playing time = no value.

If you’re a mediocre club and not playing young players you’re hurting their value plain and simple and only have yourself to blame.  Otherwise loan them out (like they did with Sam) and get their value up. 

The Caps run a shitty business model, partly due to themselves and partly due to MLS.  No need to whine about the CSA who let them get away with murder for years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean, I think you are agreeing with me? Spending tons of money developing young players in a region that basically never sells young players for any serious money is a stupid business plan. They 'caps would have, and will be, better off being like Portland and just playing international players and getting them green cards to meet the domestic rules. The CSA already squashed VWFC2 and started the CPL to compete with the Whitecaps so whatever thin moral obligation Vancouver felt about youth development is probably mostly gone. They can just poach any good youth prospects from the CPL for free rather than spending millions of dollars on a high-risk, low-reward strategy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

I mean, I think you are agreeing with me? Spending tons of money developing young players in a region that basically never sells young players for any serious money is a stupid business plan. They 'caps would have, and will be, better off being like Portland and just playing international players and getting them green cards to meet the domestic rules. The CSA already squashed VWFC2 and started the CPL to compete with the Whitecaps so whatever thin moral obligation Vancouver felt about youth development is probably mostly gone. They can just poach any good youth prospects from the CPL for free rather than spending millions of dollars on a high-risk, low-reward strategy.

1.  How could they poach them for free?  CPL isn't going to just give away their best players.

2.  Everything you posted about their "rational" plan going forward suggests they have far less involvement in Canadaian soccer success (other than their own).  At a time when Davies is generating a (relatively) massive amount of excitement and interest, largely as a feel-good Canadian success story, this seems like an odd point.

3. Insofar as footy supporters have some level of interest in the national game and CPL is about to start knocking on the door for support, it seems like a time when MLS teams should be trying to strengthen their CanCon appeal - not backing out of that game entirely.  Moving in the direction you suggest seems to me to be completely antithetical to that idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

I mean, I think you are agreeing with me? Spending tons of money developing young players in a region that basically never sells young players for any serious money is a stupid business plan. They 'caps would have, and will be, better off being like Portland and just playing international players and getting them green cards to meet the domestic rules. The CSA already squashed VWFC2 and started the CPL to compete with the Whitecaps so whatever thin moral obligation Vancouver felt about youth development is probably mostly gone. They can just poach any good youth prospects from the CPL for free rather than spending millions of dollars on a high-risk, low-reward strategy.

I agree somewhat I guess but putting the blame on the CSA for Whitecaps 2 or VWFC development is silly.  No communities wanted the team .. no one wants to watch reserve MLS teams pretending to be pro teams.  Everyone knew this from the start - the fact all those teams were jokes comes as a surprise to no one.

The CSA is doing what it has to do re CPL.  Vancouver should do the same ... it’s their fault they pour money into a program they never utilize while they let NCAA players walk into the team.  Essentially they’re saying NCAA develops better players than them. The Caps have been all talk and no action when it comes to developing and playing players, there’s no need to pretend it’s anyone else’s fault.  Vancouver hasn’t been developing/playing Canadians at a suitable rate and they’ve had 8 seasons so now competition is moving in - this is how the market works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Keegan said:

I agree somewhat I guess but putting the blame on the CSA for Whitecaps 2 or VWFC development is silly.  No communities wanted the team .. no one wants to watch reserve MLS teams pretending to be pro teams.  Everyone knew this from the start - the fact all those teams were jokes comes as a surprise to no one.

The CSA is doing what it has to do re CPL.  Vancouver should do the same ... it’s their fault they pour money into a program they never utilize while they let NCAA players walk into the team.  Essentially they’re saying NCAA develops better players than them. The Caps have been all talk and no action when it comes to developing and playing players, there’s no need to pretend it’s anyone else’s fault.  Vancouver hasn’t been developing/playing Canadians at a suitable rate and they’ve had 8 seasons so now competition is moving in - this is how the market works.

I see your point, but you also need to have the players to play. Davies gets plenty of chances, because he's good enough. There has been hype around players (Bustos, Froese, Carducci) but honestly they haven't shown them wrong either for letting them go. 8 years isn't that much IMO especially when you have such a small (population-wise) region to pull from. The level has gotten quite high. Every now and then you walk into a real prospect, but that's all you can expect. They're not TFC with 8 milion people right around the corner. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Keegan said:

I agree somewhat I guess but putting the blame on the CSA for Whitecaps 2 or VWFC development is silly.  No communities wanted the team .. no one wants to watch reserve MLS teams pretending to be pro teams.  Everyone knew this from the start - the fact all those teams were jokes comes as a surprise to no one.

The CSA is doing what it has to do re CPL.  Vancouver should do the same ... it’s their fault they pour money into a program they never utilize while they let NCAA players walk into the team.  Essentially they’re saying NCAA develops better players than them. The Caps have been all talk and no action when it comes to developing and playing players, there’s no need to pretend it’s anyone else’s fault.  Vancouver hasn’t been developing/playing Canadians at a suitable rate and they’ve had 8 seasons so now competition is moving in - this is how the market works.

Yeah, as I said before, I agree with you, although you are wrong about VWFC2, it's been clearly reported several times that the CSA squashed their Calgary move. From the Whitecaps point of view it makes way more sense to decrease spending on youth development and let the CPL owners spend the money. The 'caps can just take any good prospects for free once they are out of contract like they do from other lower leagues and additionally use CPL as a source for loans instead of running a USL3 team or a USL affiliate. 

It's been clear for a long time that Canadian MLS club fans overwhelming care about results and style of play over any sort of domestic content, it was a losing strategy from the start for Vancouver to invest so much in youth development rather than international scouting (like Portland) or a strong analytics team and DPs (like Toronto). The CPL gives them a nice excuse to focus on winning trophies and pleasing fans rather than signing every B-level prospect from the academy to a pro deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Dub Narcotic said:

Yeah, as I said before, I agree with you, although you are wrong about VWFC2, it's been clearly reported several times that the CSA squashed their Calgary move. From the Whitecaps point of view it makes way more sense to decrease spending on youth development and let the CPL owners spend the money. The 'caps can just take any good prospects for free once they are out of contract like they do from other lower leagues and additionally use CPL as a source for loans instead of running a USL3 team or a USL affiliate. 

It's been clear for a long time that Canadian MLS club fans overwhelming care about results and style of play over any sort of domestic content, it was a losing strategy from the start for Vancouver to invest so much in youth development rather than international scouting (like Portland) or a strong analytics team and DPs (like Toronto). The CPL gives them a nice excuse to focus on winning trophies and pleasing fans rather than signing every B-level prospect from the academy to a pro deal.

I completely agree with everything except the CSA v VWFC thing.. why shouldn’t the CSA have quashed* the Calgary move?  How would that be fair to Foothills or incoming CPL teams?  “Hey sure Vancouver your failing 2nd team can have one of the largest markets in Canada even though you do next to nothing for Canadians.”  They couldn’t even live up to their original obligations.. and they wanted another major favour? A pro team with two of the largest cities in Canada? Come on now.. if they couldn’t make it in BC the CSA was 1000% right to block a move to a major market. Good riddance - the alternative is infinitely better.

Edited by Keegan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, shamrock said:

I see your point, but you also need to have the players to play. Davies gets plenty of chances, because he's good enough. There has been hype around players (Bustos, Froese, Carducci) but honestly they haven't shown them wrong either for letting them go. 8 years isn't that much IMO especially when you have such a small (population-wise) region to pull from. The level has gotten quite high. Every now and then you walk into a real prospect, but that's all you can expect. They're not TFC with 8 milion people right around the corner. 

I haven't followed the team closely enough to know this: Did these players get as many chances to prove they're not good enough as guys like Blondell, Ibini, Maund, etc. have been given? In my opinion, and in many sports, money talks and guys that have been brought in on transfer deals or are earning a bigger pay packet are given more chances to prove their worth than kids brought up through the system, who ironically may have had more invested in them, but as part of a cohort and over a longer period of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, jonovision said:

I haven't followed the team closely enough to know this: Did these players get as many chances to prove they're not good enough as guys like Blondell, Ibini, Maund, etc. have been given? In my opinion, and in many sports, money talks and guys that have been brought in on transfer deals or are earning a bigger pay packet are given more chances to prove their worth than kids brought up through the system, who ironically may have had more invested in them, but as part of a cohort and over a longer period of time.

True. It's an uphill battle for homegrowns, it always is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/19/2018 at 1:06 PM, Keegan said:

Vancouver did get compensation for Adekugbe and if it wasn’t as high as they liked that’s their business problem.. he had 16 MLS appearances over 4 years and still got them $... what do you expect?  And much of that was probably due to the big bad CSA giving him Canada caps. 

Sorry but if you don’t play players you “develop” you’re not going to make big $.  Even players who do play don’t yield high returns so how could anyone be so ignorant?  Vancouver would have received compensation for Zanatta as well.. even as an academy youth.  Davies plays and will get you $.. if the Caps sold Teibert after 2011 he would have got them money.  But now?  He’s 25 and washed out from years of little playing time = no value.

If you’re a mediocre club and not playing young players you’re hurting their value plain and simple and only have yourself to blame.  Otherwise loan them out (like they did with Sam) and get their value up. 

The Caps run a shitty business model, partly due to themselves and partly due to MLS.  No need to whine about the CSA who let them get away with murder for years.

The Whitecaps waived their right to youth compensation for Zanatta. If I recall correctly, it was because of him that they started asking their residency players to sign some sort of document that they won't just pick up and leave. I haven't been able to get the specifics on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/19/2018 at 1:56 PM, Dub Narcotic said:

I mean, I think you are agreeing with me? Spending tons of money developing young players in a region that basically never sells young players for any serious money is a stupid business plan. They 'caps would have, and will be, better off being like Portland and just playing international players and getting them green cards to meet the domestic rules. The CSA already squashed VWFC2 and started the CPL to compete with the Whitecaps so whatever thin moral obligation Vancouver felt about youth development is probably mostly gone. They can just poach any good youth prospects from the CPL for free rather than spending millions of dollars on a high-risk, low-reward strategy.

Not accurate. The CSA never squashed WFC2. They wouldn't sanction the team being moved to Calgary. But they never killed the team. It was the Whitecaps that decided to do so. They claim it was primarily because of the new stadium standards that the USSF was imposing on USL for division 2 status. But it is widely believe to be because of money. 

Edited by masster
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word is quashed, I’m dying here imagining the CSA walking around squashing things. 

And as for the thought that developed players have a more uphill battle, I agree but it just shows how dumb these clubs are.  You’ve put more money and resources into the academy than a draft pick is worth.. but then again the manager gets credit for the pick but not the development of an academy player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/20/2018 at 6:54 AM, Keegan said:

I agree somewhat I guess but putting the blame on the CSA for Whitecaps 2 or VWFC development is silly.  No communities wanted the team .. no one wants to watch reserve MLS teams pretending to be pro teams.  Everyone knew this from the start - the fact all those teams were jokes comes as a surprise to no one.

The CSA is doing what it has to do re CPL.  Vancouver should do the same ... it’s their fault they pour money into a program they never utilize while they let NCAA players walk into the team.  Essentially they’re saying NCAA develops better players than them. The Caps have been all talk and no action when it comes to developing and playing players, there’s no need to pretend it’s anyone else’s fault.  Vancouver hasn’t been developing/playing Canadians at a suitable rate and they’ve had 8 seasons so now competition is moving in - this is how the market works.

Really? The only NCAA players that have gotten close to the first team over the last few years are Tim Parker (now a borderline US international) and Jake Nerwinski, who had a very promising rookie season.

Have they done a good enough job developing players for the first team? If you look just at results, no. But which Canadian team has? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, masster said:

Really? The only NCAA players that have gotten close to the first team over the last few years are Tim Parker (now a borderline US international) and Jake Nerwinski, who had a very promising rookie season.

Have they done a good enough job developing players for the first team? If you look just at results, no. But which Canadian team has? 

We can add Erik Hurtado, Cristian Dean, and as far as taking up roster spots Cole Seiler and Spencer Richey.... You could even go back as far as Omar Selgado... It is a shame that the Whitecaps have consistently wasted everything they put into their residency. It is either one of two things.... 

1) The residency is not as good as they love to claim it is, therefore they are massively mismanaging the huge amount of money they put into it.

2) The coaches are afraid to play the kids for fear of being fired, not really the coaches fault, but don't sign these kids if youre never going to play them and you'll just stall their careers. 

I find it very hard to believe that in the whole 8 years there have only been 2 players good enough to break in, Sam Adekugbe and Alphonso. Alphonso is obviously one of the best prospects on the planet, and people might forget how highly regarded Sam was, and its not like he's playing at a level  below MLS right now.

The Whitecaps either need to make a change in their philosophy, or the structure of their residency. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, BradMack said:

2) The coaches are afraid to play the kids for fear of being fired, not really the coaches fault, but don't sign these kids if youre never going to play them and you'll just stall their careers. 

 

There are people who know far more about this than me, but coaches' risk aversion seems like a big driver behind the lack of playing time for young players. What's so odd about the Whitecaps situation is that they have made big, high profile investments in youth development. There's a disconnect somewhere. Personally, i think they have a manager (Carl Robinson) who prefers older players because they make fewer mistakes and the Whitecaps management hasn't yet reached the point where they want to get rid of that manager.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, jonovision said:

I haven't followed the team closely enough to know this: Did these players get as many chances to prove they're not good enough as guys like Blondell, Ibini, Maund, etc. have been given? In my opinion, and in many sports, money talks and guys that have been brought in on transfer deals or are earning a bigger pay packet are given more chances to prove their worth than kids brought up through the system, who ironically may have had more invested in them, but as part of a cohort and over a longer period of time.

I know you said you have not been following the team closely, but if you are going to make these types of arguments, lets look at these things critically.

Blondell was a significant signing that had never played outside of Venezuela before. It is his first season in MLS and he has played barely over 500 minutes. Way too early to say anything about him although I will admit he hasn't looked great. I also don't think it is fair to compare a residency player to somebody that scored 24 goals his last season in the Venezuelan top flight.

Ibini: during the last 2 seasons he has started only 12 games and played under 1000 total minutes. He has proved not to be good enough and don't expect to see him in important matches anymore. He is regularly out of the game day 18. Again, I don't think it is fair to compare a residency player to somebody that was on the radar of the Australian national team before blowing out his leg while he was on the books at a respectable European club. I would say that the amount of chance he was given was appropriate for his resume.

Maund: has played only 6 games over parts of 2 seasons. He is the 4th CB on the team. He is a 7 year MLS veteran. He is there for experience and depth and nothing else. I would have no problem with him being replaced with a residency CB if there was one ready and available in the youth system, but I don't think there is. Jonas Hakkinen seemed to play very well in the U19 playoffs. He might become a pro player, but is not close to MLS yet.

Often times we make these generalizations about the overall system but when we are looking at players we need to do it on a case by case basis. So which Whitecaps prospects over the last few years were given a chance, and was it fair?

Adekugbe: has already been discussed here. He was given a chance and actually won a starting position until his injury. He then couldn't win it back, sulked like a child, and left.

Carducci: was great with the youth teams and signs a first team contract. Gets 2 starts at a very young age for a keeper in the Canadian Championship. Makes an error that probably costs the team the chance to advance. Gets more experience and pro games playing for WFC2. Plays fine but not outstanding. Both parties agree he should look elsewhere for first team minutes. Goes to another USL club, can't break through there either. Now playing PDL. In my opinion, his chance was suitable given his performance level.

Bustos: talent is undeniable at the youth levels. Gets a debut in the Canadian Championship at 18. Plays regularly for WFC2 and performs well. Gets substitute appearances in Champions League makes his debut in the league. Performances improve in WFC2 in 2016. Gets a handful or more appearances in the first team including his first start but doesn't make an impact at all. Continues to show he is too good for USL but not ready for MLS. They agree to a contract extension and send him on loan. That seems fair to me. One note is that when he did get chances with the first team, he never seemed to play in his favored position. If he performs well in Mexico, maybe he will get that chance.

Froese: this is the one guy where I think you can make a case that he earned more of a chance based on his early performances than he got. He had some important substitute appearances. Got some starts and a goal. But then the performances seemed to drop, and so did the chances. Not as familiar with his case as some of the others, but I understand he wanted to go to Europe as well and it eventually happened. Whether he should have played more while he was here...perhaps.

I think Davies and even Brett Levis have shown that if you perform well and take the chance when it comes, the Whitecaps will reward you and you will get more.

So what does this mean for Theo Bair? Well, for a guy that had already committed to an NCAA program his performances this year and especially in the playoffs earned him a pro contract. Thats a good first step. Not having WFC2 around anymore makes his path much tougher, but a loan, perhaps to CPL, seems like a potential and logical next move. I honestly believe that whether he 'gets a chance' will be based on nothing more than his performances.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...