Ottawa CPL Club

[matty]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Yeah, the injury scenario is why I thought it might be combined. You could have two guys way over 1000 minutes, and a third guy on pace for 1000, with a fourth only played sparingly. Then all of a sudden number three gets hurt.

Another thing. What’s the penalty if the quota isn’t met? The roster rule and the Canadians starting are easy enough to enforce, but I don’t know how you enforce this. Didn’t VWC2 fall short of a similar quota one year? What happened there?

You know I doubt that a team will be punished if a u21 player with 867 minutes played breaks his leg with 6 games left in the season. "Act of God" clause

[Kent]

19 hours ago, matty said:

You know I doubt that a team will be punished if a u21 player with 867 minutes played breaks his leg with 6 games left in the season. "Act of God" clause

Probably right, but what would the penalty be if a team just doesn't comply? A fine perhaps?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 1/26/2019 at 5:02 AM, matty said:

You know I doubt that a team will be punished if a u21 player with 867 minutes played breaks his leg with 6 games left in the season. "Act of God" clause

Or maybe you are supposed to be taking the U21 angle seriously enough that there should be a fourth player on the roster who can also still meet the requirement at that point, and it isn't supposed to be treated as a quota? The key is probably signing players like Borges and Zajac that you expect to start regularly and surpass 1000 minutes by around half way through the season, so I suspect the Forge have the inside track on this so far.

They may also have had to find a way to actively incentivize U-21 players signing for them given the issues surrounding NCAA eligibility and competition from MLS academies. This looks like a late add on to the roster rules to address an unforeseen issue they have encountered when trying to get players to actually sign on the dotted line once they got up and running and moved into the realm of reality rather than aspiration.

Edited January 27, 2019 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

Interesting read I found on my tweeter feed 

 

Something caught my attention

"There could be any number of reasons why MLS teams aren’t being pressured at this time. Several sources have indicated that MLS has an agreement to be exempt for sanctioning on this issue for a set amount of time. This would make the most sense, though it’s unclear who this agreement is with, and the basis for it."

When someone tried to know how long that agreement was for

 

 

When someone brought up the Wales argument

 

[dyslexic nam]

18 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Interesting read I found on my tweeter feed 

 

Something caught my attention

"There could be any number of reasons why MLS teams aren’t being pressured at this time. Several sources have indicated that MLS has an agreement to be exempt for sanctioning on this issue for a set amount of time. This would make the most sense, though it’s unclear who this agreement is with, and the basis for it."

When someone tried to know how long that agreement was for

 

 

When someone brought up the Wales argument

 

Not that I want to tear the bandaid off the Fury debate, but if that last tweeted part is accurate, the Fury won't have much of an argument considering they have only been in USL for one year (I don't see how prior participation in NASL would apply).  The MLS clubs could potentially make the argument that they meet the definition of "longstanding" (in the context of a still fairly young MLS) which would potentially justify any differential treatment by CONCACAF and/or the CSA.

 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

USL and MLS also aren’t comparable. The difference in budgets must be about 15-35 million. There is a suitable option within Canada for Ottawa. The CPL and USL budgets will be very similar. There is no suitable option for MLS teams. They would essentially have to fire everyone, and start over again...

 

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

USL and MLS also aren’t comparable. The difference in budgets must be about 15-35 million. There is a suitable option within Canada for Ottawa. The CPL and USL budgets will be very similar. There is no suitable option for MLS teams. They would essentially have to fire everyone, and start over again...

 

I agree.  I am just referencing the possible rationale cited by the quoted professor in the article

According to Professor Bank, “These exceptions generally fall into a few major categories: (1) clubs that are in close proximity to another member’s territory and have been long-standing members of the other league, (2) clubs that have moved because of political conflict or civil war in their homes countries, (3) clubs located in member associations where there isn’t currently a professional league, and (4) clubs in disputed territories.”

2 and 4 clearly don't apply.  3 will not apply as of April 2019.  So that leaves 1 as a possible rationale - if the professor's list is both accurate and exhaustive.  And since Ottawa will have played for 2 years in USL, it clearly also doesn't apply.   My only thought was that the MLS teams could possibly make an argument about being "longstanding" participants in MLS since they have been around for a reasonable portion of its (relatively short) lifespan.

 

[T_Bison]

I think MLS is different in a couple different ways:

1) MLS technically owns the franchises - Saputo, MLSE & the Whitecaps group are "investor-operators". Pretty hard to force a league that owns the teams to have them play domestically in a league that's not you.

2) MLS' salaries and structure are far, far advanced of CanPL. Montreal is the youngest, but are still eight years old and have the Ottawa Fury as an affiliate. 

I kind of liken this to forcing the Canadian AHL & NHL teams to play in the same domestic league. The NHL teams would pound the AHL teams to dust and lose a lot of money while doing it.

[Macksam]

5 minutes ago, T_Bison said:

I think MLS is different in a couple different ways:

1) MLS technically owns the franchises - Saputo, MLSE & the Whitecaps group are "investor-operators". Pretty hard to force a league that owns the teams to have them play domestically in a league that's not you.

2) MLS' salaries and structure are far, far advanced of CanPL. Montreal is the youngest, but are still eight years old and have the Ottawa Fury as an affiliate. 

I kind of liken this to forcing the Canadian AHL & NHL teams to play in the same domestic league. The NHL teams would pound the AHL teams to dust and lose a lot of money while doing it.

1) All three owners obviously would be inclined to sell their franchises at market value and then advised to establish new clubs in the CPL.

2) This does not apply when you take into consideration point 1.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Macksam

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

43 minutes ago, T_Bison said:

I think MLS is different in a couple different ways:

....

The PDL teams in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Thunder Bay are still getting sanctioned as well, which muddies the waters a bit on this. The latest from CONCACAF was that the Fury's PR campaign about going to Geneva and the CAS was unnecessary, so as things stand there's no obvious reason to doubt the Fury can stay in USL in 2020 and beyond if they want to unless you are looking for a way to generate attention for a blog or podcast in a click bait sort of way. The best way for CanPL to attract the Fury into the fold would be to have a massively successful launch, basically.

[Ansem]

27 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The PDL teams in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Thunder Bay are still getting sanctioned as well, which muddies the waters a bit on this. 

This only applies to Thunder Bay. The other teams have no alternatives 

28 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The latest from CONCACAF was that the Fury's PR campaign about going to Geneva and the CAS was unnecessary, so as things stand there's no obvious reason to doubt the Fury can stay in USL in 2020 and beyond if they want to unless you are looking for a way to generate attention for a blog or podcast in a click bait sort of way. The best way for CanPL to attract the Fury into the fold would be to have a massively successful launch, basically.

The Fury have no ground to uphold the "exceptional circumstances. Economic arguments aren't even one of them.

They either take it to

-CAS which FIFA would fight with all their might

-they don't take it to CAS and comply  by playing in CPL or L10

-They play nowhere

 

[matty]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I agree.  I am just referencing the possible rationale cited by the quoted professor in the article

According to Professor Bank, “These exceptions generally fall into a few major categories: (1) clubs that are in close proximity to another member’s territory and have been long-standing members of the other league, (2) clubs that have moved because of political conflict or civil war in their homes countries, (3) clubs located in member associations where there isn’t currently a professional league, and (4) clubs in disputed territories.”

2 and 4 clearly don't apply.  3 will not apply as of April 2019.  So that leaves 1 as a possible rationale - if the professor's list is both accurate and exhaustive.  And since Ottawa will have played for 2 years in USL, it clearly also doesn't apply.   My only thought was that the MLS teams could possibly make an argument about being "longstanding" participants in MLS since they have been around for a reasonable portion of its (relatively short) lifespan.

 

I believe he previously defined #3 as being more about 'appropriate' rather than not existent at all.

It also looks like they're paraphrasing him rather than using exact quotes.

He also made this statement before 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by matty

[matty]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

This only applies to Thunder Bay. The other teams have no alternatives 

The Fury have no ground to uphold the "exceptional circumstances. Economic arguments aren't even one of them.

They either take it to

-CAS which FIFA would fight with all their might

-they don't take it to CAS and comply  by playing in CPL or L10

-They play nowhere

 

Again we don't know that and they very well could be in USL next year.

[dyslexic nam]

9 minutes ago, matty said:

I believe he previously defined #3 as being more about 'appropriate' rather than not existent at all. 

Which might apply to MLS teams (giving them another avenue to defend status quo if push came to shove) but given the apparent parallels between USL and CPL it wouldn't seem to support a continued case of exceptional circumstance.

[matty]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Which might apply to MLS teams (giving them another avenue to defend status quo if push came to shove) but given the apparent parallels between USL and CPL it wouldn't seem to support a continued case of exceptional circumstance.

It might if CPL pays less and has restrictions or the cost is more to travel. It really depends on the CPL finances which we don't know.

To repost this tweet

Like if the only difference between the two is the access to MLS talent, then yea there's no debate about the move but right now no one here knows because CPL finances are not clear in the slightest.

Edited February 6, 2019 by matty

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, matty said:

It might if CPL pays less and has restrictions or the cost is more to travel. It really depends on the CPL finances which we don't know.

To repost this tweet

 

Once you take out the Impact and/or TFC loaners (which would likely not apply insofar as they could choose to pursue a similar arrangement with an Ottawa Fury CPL team) and the impact of those subsidized salaries, it would be interesting to know the average salaries of players for both teams.  I find it hard to believe that there would be enough difference ( in travel costs as well) to constitute "exceptional circumstances.  I suspect FIFA would expect more than a slight difference in operating budgets - or their whole country-based league system would be at risk of falling apart (I would be that Celtic outspends their competition by a larger margin than Ottawa would outspend the top CPL teams when the dust settles).  

It would also be interesting if a CPL club were to beat the Fury in the V Cup in light of any supposedly inferior player pool. 

[Ansem]

I'd like to think that CPL made it's legal homework before even approaching the Fury. 

How long are Fury contracts anyways? Didn't they clear like most of their locker room? This would imply that the worry of being stuck contractually wasn't a huge worry/ deal breaker.

According to the lawyer on the tweet, came down to worries of a new league and having committed to USL already. The money angle is just noise added by individuals that made the Fury bad PR even worse

[matty]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Once you take out the Impact and/or TFC loaners (which would likely not apply insofar as they could choose to pursue a similar arrangement with an Ottawa Fury CPL team) and the impact of those subsidized salaries, it would be interesting to know the average salaries of players for both teams.  I find it hard to believe that there would be enough difference ( in travel costs as well) to constitute "exceptional circumstances.  I suspect FIFA would expect more than a slight difference in operating budgets - or their whole country-based league system would be at risk of falling apart (I would be that Celtic outspends their competition by a larger margin than Ottawa would outspend the top CPL teams when the dust settles).  

It would also be interesting if a CPL club were to beat the Fury in the V Cup in light of any supposedly inferior player pool. 

Oh I see you missed my edit, yea if that's the only difference there is no case but if travel in CPL costs more or there are rules saying you can't cover lodging without it counting against cap or some crap then we might get into a funny area. 

Agree with a lot of what you touch on.

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'd like to think that CPL made it's legal homework before even approaching the Fury. 

How long are Fury contracts anyways? Didn't they clear like most of their locker room? This would imply that the worry of being stuck contractually wasn't a huge worry/ deal breaker.

According to the lawyer on the tweet, came down to worries of a new league and having committed to USL already. The money angle is just noise added by individuals that made the Fury bad PR even worse

I suspect they did  and the last move was just Vic being a dick (as CPL had nothing to do with it). Think Fury, CSA, CONCACAF, and maybe the CPL are chatting with lawyers about this jazz.

I think Fury (and all USL teams) are usually 1 year with options and yea but they still held onto "key players". Don't think it really 'means' anything to important.

Could be we don't know. No one truly seems to know if money stuff will matter or not.

Edited February 6, 2019 by matty

[Alex D]

3 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

There is no suitable option for MLS teams. They would essentially have to fire everyone, and start over again...

 

They would have to anyway as they don't own their player contracts. Maybe they could arrange a deal where they leave MLS and get to buy their intellectual property and home grown contracts (because what would MLS want with a bunch of young Canadians anyway) for $1. Otherwise these MLS clubs will just cease to exist. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, T_Bison said:

I think MLS is different in a couple different ways:

1) MLS technically owns the franchises - Saputo, MLSE & the Whitecaps group are "investor-operators". Pretty hard to force a league that owns the teams to have them play domestically in a league that's not you.

2) MLS' salaries and structure are far, far advanced of CanPL. Montreal is the youngest, but are still eight years old and have the Ottawa Fury as an affiliate. 

I kind of liken this to forcing the Canadian AHL & NHL teams to play in the same domestic league. The NHL teams would pound the AHL teams to dust and lose a lot of money while doing it.

Yes, the MLS franchises currently located in Canada are MLS FRANCHISES, not football clubs. They are worth, what, $100m USD or so? The only possibility of them leaving is to be SOLD to someone who wants to relocate the FRANCHISE to another city. Lock, stock, players, and barrel. Any thought of these MLS franchises moving to CPL is a non-starter.

The only question is whether they continue to recieve sanction to play in MLS. And I for one think they should, and that CPL will eventually erode their fan base sufficiently that they will inevitably be relocated to a US city. Maybe future events will change my mind, but that is how I feel today.

[matty]

22 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Yes, the MLS franchises currently located in Canada are MLS FRANCHISES, not football clubs. They are worth, what, $100m USD or so? The only possibility of them leaving is to be SOLD to someone who wants to relocate the FRANCHISE to another city. Lock, stock, players, and barrel. Any thought of these MLS franchises moving to CPL is a non-starter.

The only question is whether they continue to recieve sanction to play in MLS. And I for one think they should, and that CPL will eventually erode their fan base sufficiently that they will inevitably be relocated to a US city. Maybe future events will change my mind, but that is how I feel today.

Why do you think that? Like if that happened, it would look really bad on the Canadian fan I think and likely be bad for Canadian soccer

Edited February 6, 2019 by matty

[ted]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The PDL teams in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg and Thunder Bay are still getting sanctioned as well, which muddies the waters a bit on this. 

As already noted, VIctoria, Caklgary, Vancouver, and Winnipeg have no alternative. If a D3 league is created in BC and the Prairies, the situation may change.

Thunder Bay may be in trouble though (assuming anyone cares about that level at CONCACAF).

[Blackdude]

Why is Thunder Bay in trouble? It takes less time to go to Winnipeg and back then to travel to a non-Ottawa location in L1O one-way. It's not Sudbury, people.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, matty said:

Why do you think that? Like if that happened, it would look really bad on the Canadian fan I think and likely be bad for Canadian soccer

Why do you think it would look really bad on the Canadian fan?

It is obvious that CPL will erode the fan base of Canadian MLS franchises somewhat. The only question is to what extent. As CPL takes hold and Canadian rivalries develop, do you not think that Canadian footy fans will gravitate to a Canadian team in a Canadian league, playing Canadian players? That is what I think will happen. And I think it will be natural and will not in any way look bad on anyone.

If CPL takes hold then MLS will have served its purpose and we can let it go without regret.

[Shortdutchcanuck]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

As CPL takes hold and Canadian rivalries develop, do you not think that Canadian footy fans will gravitate to a Canadian team in a Canadian league, playing Canadian players? That is what I think will happen. 

Some will, many won't.

Plenty of Canadians have proven, at least in TFC's case, that they are quite happy so see the best players possible, whether or not Canadians get much PT. 

I don't know about Caps or Impact but I think TFC is in MLS to stay, so long as they remain a reasonably ambitious club.  Football is still growing massively in this country, there is plenty of room for TFC to lose a few fans to CanPL and still do just fine. 

Did Swansea or Cardiff find their support eroded with the Welsh League?  No, they are still strongly supported as the best soccer teams in Wales.  For the foreseeable future both Canadian MLS teams and CanPL hold value for our national team.