Ottawa CPL Club

[Guest]

2 hours ago, matty said:

i addressed this. i don't think people care about the soccer context in canada for the most part and some of those fans are on this board. we know why that mentally exists so it isn't baffling when we have a pretty good idea why it exists.

it sucks but it makes sense

Even if you do care about the context you can still be opposed to your club team fielding a weakened side just to give Canadians playing time. It is up to the LEAGUE to institute rules that foster development of Canadian talent, just as CPL has done, so that the playing field is level for all teams in the league. And the record of MLS relative to Canadians speaks for itself. But I for one do not blame the MLS franchises currently located in Canadian cities for simply doing what is in their own best interest based on the rules of the league where they play. In fact, I think that is exactly what they should be doing.

Edited February 8, 2019 by dsqpr

[Macksam]

People are looking at this in the wrong context. It’s not different in TFC’s case compared to the other Big North American sports because it’s soccer. It’s different in TFC’s case because MLS is a low budget feeder league that is still far down the totem pole when it comes to international relevance. If TFC competed against the best and had a budget on the level of Man City, nobody....not a single voyageur here, me included, would care who they would hypothetically field in their starting eleven. Why? Because we’re seeing the best play. So, the reason I don’t watch TFC is the result of me asking myself one simple question, “if I want to watch a bunch of foreigners play, why not watch the best?” Until TFC/MLS can answer that question, which is either by fielding a majority Canadian (preferably young) line up or becoming one of the best clubs/leagues in the world, there is no purpose for me or anyone this side of the border to watch them play. Now, I know some people like 1996 are going to come and say “Well, it’s supporting local footy, 1983, Blizzard, etc.” To which I will reply by saying you now have a better option. An option that serves a purpose.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Macksam

[Ams1984]

5 hours ago, Macksam said:

People are looking at this in the wrong context. It’s not different in TFC’s case compared to the other Big North American sports because it’s soccer. It’s different in TFC’s case because MLS is a low budget feeder league that is still far down the totem pole when it comes to international relevance. If TFC competed against the best and had a budget on the level of Man City, nobody....not a single voyageur here, me included, would care who they would hypothetically field in their starting eleven. Why? Because we’re seeing the best play. So, the reason I don’t watch TFC is the result of me asking myself one simple question, “if I want to watch a bunch of foreigners play, why not watch the best?” Until TFC/MLS can answer that question, which is either by fielding a majority Canadian (preferably young) line up or becoming one of the best clubs/leagues in the world, there is no purpose for me or anyone this side of the border to watch them play. Now, I know some people like 1996 are going to come and say “Well, it’s supporting local footy, 1983, Blizzard, etc.” To which I will reply by saying you now have a better option. An option that serves a purpose.

Interesting. I definitely feel conflicted about your words though; part of me sees that the logic of your statement is unassailable, while the other less rational (but no less valid) part of me says ‘hey, wait! I’ve watched MLS since ‘96, and TFC since ‘07... I was (am?) emotionally invested in the club. Can I just foresake all of that?’ 

I’m very much on the CPL train now, I realize that it’s so much more important than MLS ever was. Still, I’m greatful to MLS and to the three Canadian MLS clubs. Without the league’s success, without TFC’s success, there wouldn’t be a CPL now. I think I’ll always support TFC, but I feel a sort of proprietary excitement about York 9. Ultimately, if I have to pick between them, York 9 will now be my main club I think...

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Macksam said:

People are looking at this in the wrong context. It’s not different in TFC’s case compared to the other Big North American sports because it’s soccer. It’s different in TFC’s case because MLS is a low budget feeder league that is still far down the totem pole when it comes to international relevance. If TFC competed against the best and had a budget on the level of Man City, nobody....not a single voyageur here, me included, would care who they would hypothetically field in their starting eleven. Why? Because we’re seeing the best play. So, the reason I don’t watch TFC is the result of me asking myself one simple question, “if I want to watch a bunch of foreigners play, why not watch the best?” Until TFC/MLS can answer that question, which is either by fielding a majority Canadian (preferably young) line up or becoming one of the best clubs/leagues in the world, there is no purpose for me or anyone this side of the border to watch them play. Now, I know some people like 1996 are going to come and say “Well, it’s supporting local footy, 1983, Blizzard, etc.” To which I will reply by saying you now have a better option. An option that serves a purpose.

Your logic is illogical, on multiple counts.

If you like opera, you can still go to watch opera live in Toronto even though you can go to a theatre and watch the MET in HD on Saturday afternoons. You can still be entertained by it, and the time out is enjoyable, and the support you are giving to opera in Toronto. It's a La Traviata but not by the best singers, like TFC is pro football without the best players.  Since when does the "best" imply an exclusion of "good"?

Second count: what you are calling seeing the best actually is not. It is watching on TV. It is the equivalent of watching the Metropolitan Opera HD broadcasts live. You can get a lot out of it, and you get instant replay and commentary, but you are not in the stadium. Now if you want to argue that it is the same thing, fine, but you tell me why most fans of European teams around the world dream and yearn to go see them live in their home stadiums? If it were the same thing, they wouldn't care; but they do, so it's not. Which leads to the related point: the cost difference between someone living in TO going to TFC and flying to Genova to see Sampdoria is pretty large. 

Third, you can have plenty of fun at games you are not invested in for their pure quality, on another level. I watch Barça at Camp Nou and I have never gone to the supporter section, ever. Because we are hanging on every play and engrossed in the proceedings. The result is critical, but also the details. But at Whitecaps, which is my team since the 70s, I know play is not so good, I do not expect much in terms of play, and I am happy to stand and bounce with one or another supporter group. I care about the result, and get angrey about it, but find a lot of so-called hardcores around me hardly care at all. But it  is more festive, because sure, otherwise I don't find it as enthralling. 

The final count where I find your reasoning off: TFC was two and three seasons ago one of the most interesting teams to watch in the history of MLS, I would dare say. It was entertaining, they had the ball, dominated, if not they were always dangerous, they had some real talent, and it was a quality experience. Anything could happen. It was not a crap shoot, or kick and run, or rebounds and counters and lucky bounces. 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Unnamed Trialist

[rob.notenboom]

Two things:

1) There have been a lot of absolutes thrown around in this thread recently, and that’s simply just poor contribution to the discussion. All of one group or another doesn’t want a winner/want more Canadians played. All of one group or another doesn’t care/not care about TFC. If you’re saying so you’re essentially hanging out a giant neon sign saying ‘I don’t really know what I’m talking about.’ This goes doubly for people who continually express to know ‘what people want’ as if they’ve studied it from a sociological or cultural perspective. Often this is no more than you projecting your own wishes onto others as if they are broadly held. And this is often not the case. 

2) I think if you are not taking into consideration, the high importance of international competition in football and how that differs from many other sports, you are missing a critical piece of the puzzle. 

[Rintaran]

I'm just catching up on this, so some of these replies may seem old...

On 2/6/2019 at 5:55 PM, Blackdude said:

Why is Thunder Bay in trouble? It takes less time to go to Winnipeg and back then to travel to a non-Ottawa location in L1O one-way. It's not Sudbury, people.

Thunder Bay would only be "in trouble" because of the focus on "provincial" leagues.

Thunder Bay is in Ontario, ergo, they have an alternative in L1O. It doesn't matter that it's really League1 Southern Ontario, as there are no teams in Northern Ontario, and likely won't be in the foreseeable future (no matter how much I would love to see Sault Ste Marie, Sudbury, North Bay, and even Timmins put in a Northern contingent).

That being said, all of L1O & Thunder Bay Chill have objected (vehemently?) to their being in the league due to the travel concerns you have mentioned. This was the basis for the exception that the OSA granted them. I doubt CONCACAF would overturn that in the near future as it is a pretty extreme change in distance.

[Keegan]

Could Thunder Bay be a CPL candidate? It’s always been intriguing that a soccer team has existed for so long in a place where they don’t even have an OHL team.

[Unnamed Trialist]

48 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Could Thunder Bay be a CPL candidate? It’s always been intriguing that a soccer team has existed for so long in a place where they don’t even have an OHL team.

I followed them years back, they have decent attendances, often over a thousand, and sounds like they have a great atmosphere. I wish we'd had someone on this board telling us more about them. They signed a great variety of players from surprising places, along with the usual NCAA boys. They have been competitive and winners. 

That said, I am not sure they have the capacity to get up to the expected attendance of CPL, but they may. Another thing, clearly, would be ownership groups with the cash to take the risk. 

[Senorpopps]

Thunder Bay only has a population of just over 100,000 and basically no surrounding population that would make the day trek for game. Hard to see 5-6% of the city turn out to a CPL game (maybe 4-5% if away team fans make the trip - which isn't the  easiest of trips cause it's Thunder Bay!)

[Rintaran]

5 minutes ago, Senorpopps said:

Thunder Bay only has a population of just over 100,000 and basically no surrounding population that would make the day trek for game. Hard to see 5-6% of the city turn out to a CPL game (maybe 4-5% if away team fans make the trip - which isn't the  easiest of trips cause it's Thunder Bay!)

Being originally from Thunder Bay, I agree with this assessment.

Thunder Bay is best suited for USL-2, a regional D3 with the prairies, or, at a stretch, an eventual CPL-2.

[Keegan]

27 minutes ago, Senorpopps said:

Thunder Bay only has a population of just over 100,000 and basically no surrounding population that would make the day trek for game. Hard to see 5-6% of the city turn out to a CPL game (maybe 4-5% if away team fans make the trip - which isn't the  easiest of trips cause it's Thunder Bay!)

So a population of 120,000.. if you pulled 2.5% that gives you 3000 people and let’s just say you don’t get any away fans in numbers worth mentioning. 

They’ve been able to survive a pretty long time and have had to travel far distances regardless.  So travel expenses are fine for them.. attendance is good for PDL.

What they would add (net positive): higher levels of coverage, merchandise, sponsors, attendance would inevitably rise

What they would lose: rebranding expense, having to pay players, flights etc. 

Basically my question is this: how much more would running a pro team cost than what they’re currently doing?  And how much of that would be offset by the money they’ll gain by entering CPL? 

When we hear these numbers about 15+ cities interested you have to think Thunder Bay is probably one, if for nothing else than the fact they exist. 

3,000 is not enough to break even, however 1000 probably isn’t enough in the PDL either.  So they are able to handle a loss (I assume).  A team in Thunder Bay would be a huge opportunity with no other teams in town or anywhere within a reasonable distance.. they could be like the Green Bay of CPL. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Keegan

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 minutes ago, Keegan said:

...they could be like the Green Bay of CPL. 

The problem with that analogy is that there is no equivalent of Milwaukee to help provide the fanbase. If PDL is working there financially in terms of sustainability primarily because NCAA players on a summer job can be given not much more than food and board for a short season in a bus travel league then the phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.

[Keegan]

34 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The problem with that analogy is that there is no equivalent of Milwaukee to help provide the fanbase. If PDL is working there financially in terms of sustainability primarily because NCAA players on a summer job can be given not much more than food and board for a short season in a bus travel league then the phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.

Luckily I don’t expect Thunder Bay’s CPL team to be worth $2.6 billion either or attract 80,000 fans a match.  

The Green Bay comparison is about a remote niche market creating a brand and being successful, nothing more.  

You have to think a large percentage of people in Thunder Bay, or Green Bay in the 1950s, may not have had an interest in their respective sports but the fact they’re the only game in town attracted people.  I have no doubt that the Chill’s attendance numbers are already inflated somewhat due to this fact and if a professional team came to town that would multiply.

I have little to no knowledge of Thunder Bay but I can guarantee if you went around and asked people what the chances are of them getting a pro sports team would be and 99.9% of people would say ZERO.  If a professional sports team got announced in a community like that it would be a complete shock - mainly because people’s minds wander to the big 4 sports when talking “pro”.  

The bottom line is this: people and businesses, whether they like soccer or not, would be all over this because it’s all there is.  A town could transform.

That was the Green Bay example.. or you could use Modo hockey (Ornskoldsvik) 30,000 population and 7,000 average attendance for hockey... probably the most amazing place worldwide for any sport when you look at how many of the greatest players have come from this small town and club - there is no comparison worldwide.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Keegan

[Senorpopps]

26 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The problem with that analogy is that there is no equivalent of Milwaukee to help provide the fanbase. If PDL is working there financially in terms of sustainability primarily because NCAA players on a summer job can be given not much more than food and board for a short season in a bus travel league then the phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.

This is true. Also consider that Thunder Bay will be flying to most of its game, not driving, seeing as how they play regionally in the PDL. Add the five figure amount an away game can cost PER game (unless we get dope sponsorship) along with the average salary of about 50,000 for 20-23 players and you have MILLIONS of dollars in extra fees. That and their stadium needs a fix-me-up. You can't expect their attendance to make up for that since 5,000 a game would be a push. 

[Macksam]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Your logic is illogical, on multiple counts.

If you like opera, you can still go to watch opera live in Toronto even though you can go to a theatre and watch the MET in HD on Saturday afternoons. You can still be entertained by it, and the time out is enjoyable, and the support you are giving to opera in Toronto. It's a La Traviata but not by the best singers, like TFC is pro football without the best players.  Since when does the "best" imply an exclusion of "good"?

The final count where I find your reasoning off: TFC was two and three seasons ago one of the most interesting teams to watch in the history of MLS, I would dare say. It was entertaining, they had the ball, dominated, if not they were always dangerous, they had some real talent, and it was a quality experience. Anything could happen. It was not a crap shoot, or kick and run, or rebounds and counters and lucky bounces. 

 

Fair point. I will clarify and say it doesn't necessarily have to be the absolute best foreigners available. I would tune in if they fielded a team full of foreigners on the level of say Sevilla or FC Porto because that would be dam entertaining to see but at the current level? No, despite the fact they have been "good" the last few seasons. Whenever I do tune in I still see the same soulless, going through the motions, suburban college boy soccer. That is an MLS issue that won't be changing anytime soon.

 

[Keegan]

11 minutes ago, Senorpopps said:

This is true. Also consider that Thunder Bay will be flying to most of its game, not driving, seeing as how they play regionally in the PDL. Add the five figure amount an away game can cost PER game (unless we get dope sponsorship) along with the average salary of about 50,000 for 20-23 players and you have MILLIONS of dollars in extra fees. That and their stadium needs a fix-me-up. You can't expect their attendance to make up for that since 5,000 a game would be a push. 

3 of the 7 clubs they would face in CPL are within that same relative “region” that they played last year: Winnipeg, York and Hamilton.

So while it’s a valid point, I’m not sure it is a big one.  Their closest opponent last season was Winnipeg.. who they will continue to play in CPL.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Keegan

[Senorpopps]

23 minutes ago, Keegan said:

3 of the 7 clubs they would face in CPL are within that same relative “region” that they played last year: Winnipeg, York and Hamilton.

So while it’s a valid point, I’m not sure it is a big one.  Their closest opponent last season was Winnipeg.. who they will continue to play in CPL.

Cool, but when the CPL expands to Moncton, Montreal, Quebec City, Saskatchewan, BC (Vancouver or Kelowna) etc. which you would expect by the time Thunder Bay would ever join the league you have 9 plus away games where you are flying ...

Edited February 8, 2019 by Senorpopps

[JamboAl]

Has anyone considered per capita income in addition to population?  If your per capita income is say $50 K for a family (I think that's roughly the case for TBay), many folks won't be able to afford to go to a game very often even if they are interested in soccer. 

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

Fair point. I will clarify and say it doesn't necessarily have to be the absolute best foreigners available. I would tune in if they fielded a team full of foreigners on the level of say Sevilla or FC Porto because that would be dam entertaining to see but at the current level? No, despite the fact they have been "good" the last few seasons. Whenever I do tune in I still see the same soulless, going through the motions, suburban college boy soccer. That is an MLS issue that won't be changing anytime soon.

 

As long as they keep their business model this will always be the case. Nobody cares about the supporters shield, good teams can coast into the playoffs and bad teams face no repercussion. US soccer is rainbows and pony rides soft. 

[Nerf]

As a soccer fan, I enjoy watching the game at any level.  I've been a Caps fan since 1978 and am not about to give that up.  But I am going to be a fan of CPL too.  Just like I used to be a Caps fan and EPL fan. You can enjoy both leagues.

My hope is that the CPL really takes off and produces some great Canadian talent and that the MLS teams will pick them up (those not good enough to go to Europe).  I think the two leagues will benefit from each other. A young Canadian player can see a clear path from CPL to MLS, and dream of EPL. Only when CPL can match MLS in talent and salary would I want to see the 3 MLS teams move to CPL.  I dream that it will happen quickly, but realistically we have no idea.

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, Macksam said:

Fair point. I will clarify and say it doesn't necessarily have to be the absolute best foreigners available. I would tune in if they fielded a team full of foreigners on the level of say Sevilla or FC Porto because that would be dam entertaining to see but at the current level? No, despite the fact they have been "good" the last few seasons. Whenever I do tune in I still see the same soulless, going through the motions, suburban college boy soccer. That is an MLS issue that won't be changing anytime soon.

Last season at TFC it was that, and it is that for 80% of MLS teams. I agree with that. 

The entertainment level has a lot to do with narrative. Just this morning I was flipping between Fulham-Man Utd and Getafe-Celta, and frankly, the latter was better quality football, the decision making, quality of play, passingg, positionally. EPL still has high level games where the ball just flies over players heads and goes to the opposition, it is sloppy and only saved because there are quality players out there, United has way better players than Celta of course. 

But the EPL narrative is stronger, so it is taken as "better", as good quality football. 

If MLS just had one thing it  currently does not I'd like it better: defensive pressure on the ball, from up high to the back line. What makes it hard is that the players make poor decisions even when they have a lot of time to decide, and that is unpardonable. 

[1996]

19 hours ago, Alex D said:

As long as they keep their business model this will always be the case. Nobody cares about the supporters shield, good teams can coast into the playoffs and bad teams face no repercussion. US soccer is rainbows and pony rides soft. 

But many on here are also big NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL and the sacred of all sacred leagues loved on these boards the CFL a league that if anybody criticizes on here  will have the Voyageurs police after you lol. All these leagues have good teams coast into the playoffs and their bad teams face no repercussions. But it’s ok for those leagues , but the MLS is soccer so somehow it matters because it’s soccer . The MLS business model is what has helped the league survive and actually prosper and not have it baried in the graveyard of soccer leagues where many previous North American soccer leagues are baried .

Edited February 9, 2019 by 1996

[Alex D]

27 minutes ago, 1996 said:

But many on here are also big NHL, MLB, NBA, NFL and the sacred of all sacred leagues loved on these boards the CFL a league that if anybody criticizes on these will have the Voyageurs police after you lol. All these leagues have good teams coast into the playoffs and their bad teams face no repercussions. But it’s ok for those leagues , but the MLS is soccer so somehow it matters because it’s soccer . The MLS business model is what has helped the league survive and actually prosper and not have it baried in the graveyard of soccer leagues where many previous North American soccer leagues are baried .

Its not okay for those leagues though. We've never had anything different, we dont know any better. Every failed league we've had has been a closed league like MLS.

Pro Rel leagues don't die because every club is allowed to find their own level. Saskatoon shouldn't be forced into operating on the same budget as Toronto because that would be financial suicide. However, if they have a smart manager and a good group of over acheiving players (think Burnley) there is no reason they shouldn't be in the same league.

I know there are a lot of people rolling their eyes and thinking im a eurosnob but thats not the point. I don't care what they do where. I just want a system in Canada that allows every club a fair chance to be the best they can be. 

 

Notes*

-I am really excited for the CPL even though its is a closed salary cap league. Mostly because we will have a bunch of young Canadian players all playing in the same league. It is also encouraging that Pro Rel is at least getting lip service.

At the same time I don't think we should be growing from the top down. Create a structure where there is no distinction from amateur to semi-pro or pro, and let the best clubs rise up. 

-Can we stop pretending that MLS is really all that different from the old NASL? For all the great strides they have made in the last decade, they are still overspending on players and relying on rapid expansion for funds. All but the top few franchises are hemorrhaging money trying to look more important than they really are. They are betting the farm on a massive TV deal in an environment where the future of broadcasting is quite grey. Things can go south quickly. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Alex D

[1996]

24 minutes ago, Alex D said:

Its not okay for those leagues though. We've never had anything different, we dont know any better. Every failed league we've had has been a closed league like MLS.

Pro Rel leagues don't die because every club is allowed to find their own level. Saskatoon shouldn't be forced into operating on the same budget as Toronto because that would be financial suicide. However, if they have a smart manager and a good group of over acheiving players (think Burnley) there is no reason they shouldn't be in the same league.

I know there are a lot of people rolling their eyes and thinking im a eurosnob but thats not the point. I don't care what they do where. I just want a system in Canada that allows every club a fair chance to be the best they can be. 

I get your point , but there are other ways that non MLS teams in the US can still compete against MLS teams and that’s the US Open Cup , the Voyaguers Cup here in Canada. As it stands now a Saskatoon with the creation of the CPL if they do one day join the CPL will have a chance to compete without having to spend MLS type money. Moreover, might even have the chance to compete against one of the three Canadian MLS teams in the Voyageur Cup one day, just like in the US where a non MLS team can compete against an MLS team in the US open Cup. At least soccer here in North America gives these smaller budget teams from smaller budget leagues a chance to compete with the bigger budget leagues through these Cup competitions . However, unless your your city or town was to get a team in the NHL , NBA, NFL MLB or even the CFL if you live in a smaller market like a Halifax or say Saskatoon you will never get the opportunity to play against any Canadian team in an actual real competition in any of these above leagues,but you might be able to in soccer.  Yes the MLS is a closed league but not really as closed as all the other leagues in North America.

Edited February 9, 2019 by 1996

[Alex D]

1 minute ago, 1996 said:

I get your point , but there are other ways that non MLS teams in the US can still compete against MLS teams and that’s the US Open Cup , the Voyaguers Cup here in Canada. As it stands now a Saskatoon with the creation of the CPL if they do one day join the CPL will have a chance to compete without having to spend MLS type money. Moreover, might even have the chance to compete against one of the three Canadian MLS teams in the Voyageur Cup one day, just like in the US where a non MLS team can compete against an MLS team in the US open Cup. At least soccer here in North America gives these smaller budget teams from smaller budget leagues a chance to compete with the bigger budget leagues through these Cup competitions . However, unless your your city or town was to get a team in the NHL , NBA, NFL MLB or even the CFL if you live in a smaller market like a Halifax or say Saskatoon you will never get the opportunity to play against any Canadian team in an actual real competition in any of these above leagues,but you might be able to in soccer. 

While true, and I can't wait for those matches, you can't compare a one off cup match to the prestige and revenue from playing on level terms in the same league. The CPL will never reach its full potential without the big 3. Having MLS in Canada while great for those 3 cities is detrimental to the sport in Canada as a whole. 

As BBTB always says, we need all our clubs pulling in the same direction