CPL new teams speculation

[Ansem]

20 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

It's put-up-or-shut-up time for Beirne & co.

Why? FC Edmonton folded as an NASL team under the USSF, not as a CPL club or under the CSA pyramid.

[dyslexic nam]

I think it is a little of column A and a little of column B.

An angry Internet minority should never (and could never) decide the workflow of the league, the drop dead date by which it must be established or be abandoned, or any other important matter.

But it is certainly true that if the business plan is sound, 5 years of beating the bushes for investors should be enough to find 6-8 groups or individuals willing to invest given the relatively modest startup costs (on a pro sports league scale) being discussed.  

If that can't be done after multiple years of effort, it has to be recognized that the barriers may be too high at this point.  In which case I think Ironcub is probably right - the fallback to USL as the next best option may be the only feasible path forward.  Heck, it could even be used as a way of building a critical mass of demonstration clubs in advance if an effort to pursue CPL 2.0

 

[Gopherbashi]

8 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Or it's time to not panic and rush things because a vocal minority of hardcore fans on the internet are freaking out.

That being said the early announcement of the league has worked out poorly in hindsight given the above said freaking out by some.

No one is freaking out or panicking, and I'm kind of disappointed that you're resorting to a strawman in order to get in some cheap shots.

The original leak of the CPL concept happened more than three years ago now; god knows how many years they were trying to kick-start this idea for before that.  They've gone through various iterations in order to try and make this thing work - NASL Canada, CPL, etc. - and so far nothing has stuck.  No one is saying they haven't tried - god knows they have - but if they have tried and failed, maybe it's time to admit as much and find a better way forward from there.

If they could find solid investors who were willing to bleed cash for several years, we'd have a league by now.  We don't.

If they'd been working with municipalities behind the scenes for years in order to find locations for these teams, we'd at least have more than a grass patch in Halifax.  We don't.

If there had been a solid push to try and build fan support to attract investors, we'd have more than a (very well-done) fan-made scarf poll.  We don't.

If there was a solid business plan for this league, the Faths - probably our country's most long-term modern-day investor at the level we're looking for - would've been praising it from the rooftops.  He isn't, and he pretty much just took his ball and went home.

God knows "time" has not been the issue here.

I want the CPL to succeed, because I believe it would be the best option forward for Canadian soccer.  If we've given the CPL our best shot and it's not turning out to be feasible, we need to find the second-best option forward for Canadian soccer and move on with that.  Where we're at now - 3 MLS teams, an affiliate, and an academy - is probably not where any of us would've expected us to be five years ago.

[ironcub14]

... I hope you all got a chance to read the last paragraph on my post, lol.

I thought 2020 was a pretty reasonable target, by the way. I mean, if the league doesn't launch by 2020, then a lot of the momentum from the past 12 months will likely have dissipated by then. I don't think it was that controversial for me to say that the idea of CPL may be a goner if we can't launch it by 2020, that's a pretty long time from now in the scheme of things if you think about it. Though as Nam said, and I have said many months before as well,  I think that a hypothetical USL Canada could easily morph into a future CPL down the road. Anyways, as I said, I'm still optimistic on CPL 2019 and 2020 overall.

I do think that it was interesting that I was actually pretty optimistic on Edmonton throughout the weekend, until I caught up to the boards today. I mean, we all know Steve is the definitive source for Edmonton news, and if he's pretty down about Edmonton in this thread, then that's the most realistic view any of us is going to get. Anyways, Edmonton will be a massive litmus test for CPL, whatever shape a CPL Edmonton may or may not look like. I'll hold on to my optimism for now, but yeah, it's slipped quite a bit today.

Edited November 27, 2017 by ironcub14

[ted]

3 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

I'll say this once before I turn back to blind optimism for now. If CPL doesn't launch by 2020...

Way more forgiving than me. For me it's 2019 or bust. They have already used up a lot of optimism and patience. I don't see how they can have any credibility if they push it back yet again.

[ironcub14]

Just now, ted said:

Way more forgiving than me. For me it's 2019 or bust. They have already used up a lot of optimism and patience. I don't see how they can have any credibility if they push it back yet again.

I'm a patient person for the most part, I think! But honestly, I do think that a 2021 launch is going to be hard to stomach for prospective owners. At some point, these incredibly rich people will say to themselves that they may have better financial and emotional investment opportunities elsewhere.

 

[Ansem]

For the longest time, wasn't Edmonton not part of the "original 6"?

I still think that the league have those "6" locked down as they were looking at launching a season with 6 as early as 2018 as long as #7-8 was also a lock if my memory serves me correctly.

I must have been on of the only or few voices that always doubt Fath having deep enough pockets to operate in CPL on their own. They would have always needed a partnership or someone buying them out.

His comments were really a shot at the city of Edmonton, Corporate Edmonton and politely at NASL itself, not the people of Edmonton or the market itself. He's right to say that succeeding in Edmonton isn't viable without;

TV

Sponsors + Edmonton businesses

City of Edmonton

Rivalries

No league support

All points he raised in the medias. FC Edmonton were literally left to fend for themselves for years and only through the articles I came to understand how bad his situation was. If I were him, there would be no CPL for me unless all the barriers above are removed.

Next year will be telling on what kind of league CPL is. They sold their plans to local businesses and found them in Halifax, Surrey and Saskatchewan  (that we know off). The CSA/CPL pitching to businesses will always get more attention then the Fath having to do it themselves. CPL has been involved with municipalities alongside ownership. There's a chance the city of Edmonton would be more inclined to listen as well once more businesses are involved and a clear business plan is presented to them.

As Fath said, you need spectators in a bigger stadium and also, EYES on the TV screen. It's cute that CPL has a plan without TV but let's be real and cut the BS, they need to be on TV in year 1.

CPL must secure Calgary. That will go a long way to get interest from all level (fans, businesses, sponsors, TV, cities) in the league and supporting it.

I'm not surprised at Fath move. He's indirectly dictating his terms to get involved in CPL. It's up to the league to find new owners or partners to work with Fath. The league will have to get the same results they achieved in Halifax and Surrey where the politicians, local businesses and fans are on board. It can be done for Edmonton of all cities.

Let's not forget that Fath showing up at the CPL gathering of ownership is heavy of significance. I think the league can provide what he's looking for on that front alone but he needs the city and Corporate Edmonton to step up big time. 

CPL will work and take Fath initial warning shots under consideration. Their main focus is to find businesses willing to get involved in a soccer league. Selling it as the "CFL" of Canadian soccer is more attractive to businesses than NASL. What's the point of sponsoring if FCE plays in cities where they don't do business and no one watches on TV? Regardless of the current situation, CPL is an easier sell than USL or NASL.

I think an Edmonton team happens, will it be Fath with a richer partner or someone entirely new is the main question at this point.

The only thing that is crystal clear is that Fath said that he's not doing that again on his own, who can blame him?

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ansem

[Dub Narcotic]

USL will have three north-south based divisions in the next couple of years, any new Canadian clubs will likely be sorted in that fashion.

[nolbertos]

I’ve been on the sidelines just watching this implosion, but like Ted stated 2019 or bust for me.  I can’t bear to watch Canada have another disappointing campaign for the next 8 years and still have no definite league timeline.  I’ve always been pro-USL and gave this PB vision a chance but now I’m back on CUSL bandwagon.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

9 hours ago, ted said:

Way more forgiving than me. For me it's 2019 or bust. They have already used up a lot of optimism and patience. I don't see how they can have any credibility if they push it back yet again.

The annoying thing is that if they had worked with the three MLS franchises and hammered out a workable solution for how they could use CanPL instead of the USL to develop players without there being any TFC II type branding, they probably would have been able to get this launched. Have to wonder if the Ticats need a soccer franchise in the pipeline at the moment for legal reasons related to their stadium lease deal with the City of Hamilton and whether they are in no rush to actually field a team while all the litigation related to the stadium build unfolds. As things stand the local city council is refusing to do business with them over the soccer lease as they think the Ticats exclusivity clause has expired, while the Ticats claim it hasn't. 

[Rheo]

14 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

No one is freaking out or panicking, and I'm kind of disappointed that you're resorting to a strawman in order to get in some cheap shots.

Full reply coming as I just got into work but it wasn't directed at you sir.  More so a twitter thing (although a bit of it on here) where there's a whole bunch of people freaking out.  I apologize for not making that clear in the original post.

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The annoying thing is that if they had worked with the three MLS franchises and hammered out a workable solution for how they could use CanPL instead of the USL to develop players without there being any TFC II type branding, they probably would have been able to get this launched.

oh please, they saw the whole league as their personal farms

[ChrisinOrleans]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

oh please, they saw the whole league as their personal farms

So? 

The CanPL cannot compete with MLS. It might as well embrace it and draw a little bit of that funding and player development. Also, the Impact have a relationship with Ottawa, and always have. It doesn't seem to affect either that much. I regularly attend matches at both stadiums, and while the quality is night and day, nobody would know they are affiliated. 

[Ansem]

41 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

So? 

The CanPL cannot compete with MLS. It might as well embrace it and draw a little bit of that funding and player development. Also, the Impact have a relationship with Ottawa, and always have. It doesn't seem to affect either that much. I regularly attend matches at both stadiums, and while the quality is night and day, nobody would know they are affiliated. 

CPL intention isn't to compete with MLS. It's to be it's own league and develop its own players.

[ChrisinOrleans]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL intention isn't to compete with MLS. It's to be it's own league and develop its own players.

If it is not competing with MLS, then why would it be averse to having MLS affiliated teams within its ranks - especially if it is not going to be in the big three cities (which represent 37% of all Canadians)? 

[Ansem]

11 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

If it is not competing with MLS, then why would it be averse to having MLS affiliated teams within its ranks - especially if it is not going to be in the big three cities (which represent 37% of all Canadians)? 

Because it wants to be a top league and you'd have to be the biggest moron business-wise to allow B teams in your league.

 

[ironcub14]

All good points about Edmonton @Ansem, I agree with you that the Faths, as much as they are beloved by the Edmonton supporters for all their financial support, are likely tired of their losses year after year for 5+ years. Surely, a CPL Edmonton side will require more than the Faths, financially and politically. I'm going to keep referring to political capital, and perhaps their lack of it, as a reason why they couldn't get a proper expansion or renovation or a new stadium.

And that is precisely why I was really deflated after reading Steven's 2nd post in this thread over the weekend, that there is nobody willing to partner up with FCEd. That means either 1) The Faths will have to be relied on to suffer even more losses for an FCEd in CPL by themselves, or 2) We will need one of the giant companies and investors in Edmonton to be convinced to invest into CPL Edmonton, which is an incredibly hard thing to do, as Steven emphasizes quite strongly.

Whether FCEd or Edmonton is part of the original 6 or not, I can't imagine a sustainable CPL without Edmonton. Maybe others can, but I can't.

[ironcub14]

As for MLS affiliates in CPL, I think that there is a difference that people have to make in what they envision as their ideal version of CPL, which to almost everybody here will look something close to a European system and will realistically not be very feasible, and a pragmatic and sustainable version of CPL, which will look far more mainstream and lame to us, but is exactly what the league will need precisely because the league already has the support of hardcore V's but needs the support of the mainstream fans to be sustainable over the medium and the long term.

And to me, a sustainable CPL has to look something in between NASL and USL. The two leagues as of 2017 present polar opposite extremes in what a Canadian soccer league can look like that will be a level below MLS. A league full of independent clubs antagonizing MLS has provoked a war it could not win, pretty much resorting itself to a Hail Mary lawsuit to try to eke out survival. A league full of reserve teams and affiliates has not captured many people's hearts, because of the minor league association, though I think a lot of fans forget that there is a big difference for soccer in that, these teams are at least half-full with academy grads, which is a totally different thing from draft picks as is with AHL, AAA baseball, and the NBA D-League.

I think a sustainable CPL that looks something in between NASL and USL, both in league structure and financial ownership, could very well welcome a few MLS affiliates, provided it's only a minority within the league. Hell, considering FC Montreal and Whitecaps 2 shut down and left a bunch more CanM23 players unemployed, not sure if the pure sanctity vision a lot of V's have of a fully independent CPL is really practical or worth keeping. Well, let's see how many more millionaires and billionaires can be rounded up for CPL over the next 12 months. Time is definitely ticking, if a lot of you are fully bent on a 2019 launch.

[Rheo]

Short but full reply now.  I'm just at a frustration point  in general when it comes to CPL reaction.  It just seems that in my opinion too many people are at one extreme or the other.  In the glory days of the post launch announcement, I'd estimate a majority of people on the board strongly disagreed with the idea of the 2018 soft launch.  Now that 2018 is off the table suddenly the league isn't feasible?  Some assume that starting a national sports league is easy.  That it's a static thing but in reality it's a fluid.  

Now don't get me wrong.  I'm not naive.  I am definitely more worried than I've ever been.  Between the lack of official info, to the negative comments from big boosters like Totera and Rollins and of course FCE.  They really did fuck up announcing the league so early.  They created expectations in the hardcore community that they haven't been able to keep up with.  But as I've previously said, when (if) they league launches for 99% of Canadians this will be brand new to them.  They won't know anything about what us idiots (meant lovingly) in the bubble have obsessed over here in the lead up.

Anyways maybe time for myself to take a bit of break.  Apologies again to @Gopherbashifor not being clear in my original post.

 

[MtlMario]

The only way MLS 2 teams should be allowed in CPL is when CPL has a 2nd division.

[Ansem]

33 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

The only way MLS 2 teams should be allowed in CPL is when CPL has a 2nd division.

100% agree. With no promotion being possible for them like in Europe

[matty]

42 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

The only way MLS 2 teams should be allowed in CPL is when CPL has a 2nd division.

I'd say if the project has a drastic change and becomes a nation wide version of L1O it would happen

[Kent]

It really is tough right now. Just under 7 months ago we had 2 official teams announced, 10 serious bids for other teams including one that was planning on building a stadium seemingly any day, and the promise (or was it just heavily implied) of more news in 60-90 days.

Now we still have 2 official teams announced, 3 teams that we have heard somewhat meaningful news about (Surrey, Saskatoon, and Halifax), no shovels in the ground on any of these new stadiums even in Halifax, FC Edmonton has folded up shop, VWFC2 as well if you want to count that in the non-CPL related bad footy news category, and we are waiting for the next 60-90 days for more news.

Have some of those 10 bids dropped out? Why aren't we hearing anything about them? Were they investorless bids that are still looking for investors?

Tom Petty was right. The waiting is the hardest part.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

...Have some of those 10 bids dropped out? Why aren't we hearing anything about them? Were they investorless bids that are still looking for investors?

All I remember Paul Beirne saying was 10 markets that he expected to get there eventually. Tortuous wording like that definitely sounded like a way to potentially fit in groups that still needed to find more investors along with groups with an investor in place like FC Edmonton that were kicking the tires a bit but had not made any firm commitment to sign on the dotted line.

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Kent said:

Just under 7 months ago we had 2 official teams announced, 10 serious bids for other teams including one that was planning on building a stadium seemingly any day, and the promise (or was it just heavily implied) of more news in 60-90 days.

actually, the league officially said that the bids would be evaluated within the next 60-90 days. We just collectively implied that they were going ahead with an announcement at the end of the evaluation period. Also, last month I think, 10 ownership and FCE were in attendance to a meeting with CPL in Toronto. Seems like the bids are either a formality or approved. 

28 minutes ago, Kent said:

Now we still have 2 official teams announced, 3 teams that we have heard somewhat meaningful news about (Surrey, Saskatoon, and Halifax), no shovels in the ground on any of these new stadiums even in Halifax,

That means that 50% of the ownership location are known. Stadiums are entirely out of the league's control. This is with local politicians who most often than none have their own agendas. The league and owners have to navigate those municipalities bureaucracy and process. The lack of news could be linked to that.

Hard to go public with a press conference and the league has to tell the whole country that they don't know where half of their teams will play, let alone if a city could cancel a deal at the last minutes. That screams of amateurish and you simply can't have that. They have to wait for everything to be 100% sure.

31 minutes ago, Kent said:

FC Edmonton has folded up shop

It sucks but hardly a surprise. There's time to clear the hurdles named by Fath or for someone else to take the CPL project in Edmonton.

33 minutes ago, Kent said:

Have some of those 10 bids dropped out?

They met last month, so I wouldn't think so

33 minutes ago, Kent said:

Why aren't we hearing anything about them?

We did via Surrey mayor, Saskatoon city hall and Halifax city hall. Those matters (stadiums on city land) are public. So we know of 5. 

35 minutes ago, Kent said:

Were they investorless bids that are still looking for investors?

Doubtful. No league would have an ownership meeting with "owners" without cash backing them. It's like the Quebec Nordiques group meeting Gary Bettman without securing Quebecor's money. Their call wouldn't make it past the secretary.

I get it from a fan perspective, we're impatient and we all know that for Canada to have it's own D1 league, this is it. However, from a business point of view, there's nothing abnormal that the league has done so far. No serious business comes out to announce a project without being 100% ready and those who do usually see such a move backfire one way or another.

Unless I hear Bob Young starting to unfollow CPL, saying that he's out or something major like leaks from pissed off investors wanting out, it's business as usual. The legal and politics behind building a new league is so massive and complex that people have to stop reducing at just signing a bunch of paper and play. It unbelievably complex.