CPL new teams speculation

[shermanator]

Oh no, a terrible USL level coach thinks CPL is a shit idea. Pack it in, boys.

[SpursFlu]

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

Hearing from some Bytown Boys friends who were at the SSH event yesterday that Dalglish said about CPL,

"... the worst possible thing that could happen to Canadian Soccer"

He's really endearing himself to the fanbase oh yes he is.

 

Since nothing has ever really happened to Canadian soccer at the very same time as being the worst to ever happen it could simultaneously be the best thing to ever happen

Oh wait.. I forgot about that time we had that goal disallowed in the World Cup finals against Germany 

Edited August 3, 2017 by SpursFlu

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, ironcub14 said:

Pretty likely for sure, everything we've seen from Ottawa, the Fury staff, the bloggers, it's always been the biggest source of a USL Canada idea, I'd assume Pugh would be the biggest dissenting voice on the CSA board of directors. And hey, I've spent plenty of time on this board talking about the idea myself

It's par for the course that the stakeholders in Canadian soccer would be pursuing three different visions for what happens below MLS in Canada. The CSA lacks the powers to enforce their preferred outcome on existing business operations (see what happened when they tried to get rid of the CSL), because they would open themselves up to potentially bankrupting legal action if they did. If the Fury are not on board they are still going to have TFC II and Whitecaps II (possibly sold to independent owners if the rumours are true) around in USL in the years ahead so they can't easily be squeezed out of the picture, if they decide to steer clear.

[harrycoyster]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's par for the course that the stakeholders in Canadian soccer would be pursuing three different visions for what happens below MLS in Canada. The CSA lacks the powers to enforce their preferred outcome on existing business operations (see what happened when they tried to get rid of the CSL), because they would open themselves up to potentially bankrupting legal action if they did.

The USSF can't control their pyramid either and they have $120 million sitting in a bank account.

[Zem]

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Boom: Not looking good for Ottawa Fury involvement in 2018 if this is a legit twitter account:

 

It's pretty obvious that isn't real lol

EDIT: Actually never mind, reading the rest of the account those are definitely real quotes. Wtf

Edited August 3, 2017 by Zem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

6 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

Hearing from some Bytown Boys friends who were at the SSH event yesterday that Dalglish said about CPL,

"... the worst possible thing that could happen to Canadian Soccer"

 

[ironcub14]

5 hours ago, shermanator said:

Oh no, a terrible USL level coach thinks CPL is a shit idea. Pack it in, boys.

Think the goal today here was to discuss how likely the Fury is or is not in joining the CPL in its debut season or later on, not whether CPL is a shit idea or not.

Yep, Dalglish's quotes were real, tons of discussion happening about his points yesterday on the two main Fury supporters FB groups today.

Dalglish's points were pretty misguided and incorrect, imho, but a lot of Fury fans are wary of the uncertainty of CPL, whether Ottawa is a part of it from the beginning or not. The usual points about facing reserve sides, the expected quality of play compared to NASL or USL, and the financial losses are all being brought out as well, same stuff people've been repeating for months, nothing really new.

But to sum it up quick, no doubt about it, Fury fans are leaning more and more heavily towards CPL over USL. You guys've all seen the CanPL tifo.

Edited August 3, 2017 by ironcub14

[dyslexic nam]

17 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

Think the goal today here was to discuss how likely the Fury is or is not in joining the CPL in its debut season or later on, not whether CPL is a shit idea or not.

Yep, Dalglish's quotes were real, tons of discussion happening about his points yesterday on the two main Fury supporters FB groups today.

Dalglish's points were pretty misguided and incorrect, imho, but a lot of Fury fans are wary of the uncertainty of CPL, whether Ottawa is a part of it from the beginning or not. The usual points about facing reserve sides, the expected quality of play compared to NASL or USL, and the financial losses are all being brought out as well, same stuff people've been repeating for months, nothing really new.

But to sum it up quick, no doubt about it, Fury fans are leaning more and more heavily towards CPL over USL. You guys've all seen the CanPL tifo.

I still maintain that strong, sustained action by Fury supporters is what will make this happen.  I get that there may be valid (and different) arguments for the Fury and FC Ed to stay on their current trajectory, but the growth potential for CPL has to be better than riding USL or NASL into mediocrity.  And the more vocal and active you guys can be, the better.  

Viva la revolution!

 

[Initial B]

I think regardless of what we Fury supporters think, I believe the response from Fury FO is telling - they obviously don't see themselves as having the financial backing to compete in the CPL as proposed. Thus they downplay the viability of the CPL as a travel impossibility. With the current USL regional setup, they can bus to a large number of their games, saving money. OSEG are trying to run the team on the cheap and don't want to leave USL. They must be worried that they can't make it profitable if they need to pay for Airfares, nevermind the expected salaries. It's going to take a lot of enticing for them to jump ship, I think.

Now I imagine Eugene Melnyk (owner of the Senators) would be up for getting on board with a plan to include a small CPL sized stadium in his new Lebreton Flats project. He tried for an MLS franchise, so I could see him making a play for a CPL one. Heck, the cost of one Sens player would cover the salaries of an entire CPL roster. If that happens, expect the anti-CPL rhetoric from the Fury to increase by an order of magnitude.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Initial B

[Ansem]

Whatever happens, outside of the big 3 metro areas, Ottawa has the 3rd largest metro area in Canada behind Calgary and Edmonton with over 1.3M people with a good media presence. This makes Ottawa a very attractive market to look at. Ottawa is closer to Montreal than Quebec City is. A CPL Quebec City would certainly draw Quebecers from Gatineau, more so than today at the very least.

The Fury have no incentive to join CPL as long as they hold that market and continue to run a cheaper operation aka... having your cake and eat it too. However, if an investor takes interest in Ottawa, the league has to evaluate the bid. The Fury would have to react once that happens.

Partnership with the new investor or a new partner? Stay put hoping they beat the CPL team? Whatever happens, Fury's future is in their hands but the league won't deny Ottawa bids over the Fury if they do come along. Ottawa is too important for the league

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 hours ago, Initial B said:

....Now I imagine Eugene Melnyk (owner of the Senators) would be up for getting on board with a plan to include a small CPL sized stadium in his new Lebreton Flats project....

He got interested in MLS expansion after driving past BMO Field during a TFC game and being surprised by what he saw happening and then researching it a bit. That suggests that he had no idea about pro soccer prior to that and isn't a hardcore soccer fan along the lines of somebody like Joe Belen.

[Initial B]

Maybe not, but he has money - probably enough to get the Fury over the CPL salary cap sticker shock.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

What I was getting at is that it isn't a safe assumption that Eugene Melnyk is going to do that. Do you have any evidence that he is involved with CanPL?

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

He got interested in MLS expansion after driving past BMO Field during a TFC game and being surprised by what he saw happening and then researching it a bit. That suggests that he had no idea about pro soccer prior to that and isn't a hardcore soccer fan along the lines of somebody like Joe Belen.

That's why you hire someone to manage it for you? Not all soccer owners on this planet are "passionate fans". Professional sports is still a business.

No one knows regarding Melnyk at this point

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[m-g-williams]

21 hours ago, Initial B said:

I think regardless of what we Fury supporters think, I believe the response from Fury FO is telling - they obviously don't see themselves as having the financial backing to compete in the CPL as proposed. Thus they downplay the viability of the CPL as a travel impossibility. With the current USL regional setup, they can bus to a large number of their games, saving money. OSEG are trying to run the team on the cheap and don't want to leave USL. They must be worried that they can't make it profitable if they need to pay for Airfares, nevermind the expected salaries. It's going to take a lot of enticing for them to jump ship, I think.

Now I imagine Eugene Melnyk (owner of the Senators) would be up for getting on board with a plan to include a small CPL sized stadium in his new Lebreton Flats project. He tried for an MLS franchise, so I could see him making a play for a CPL one. Heck, the cost of one Sens player would cover the salaries of an entire CPL roster. If that happens, expect the anti-CPL rhetoric from the Fury to increase by an order of magnitude.

My bigger concern would be the location. From what I understand (if this is like other federal procurement/development projects), the RFP for Lebreton required a significant amount of detail on the part of the proponents. The info sessions held detailed pretty well every component of the two proposals, and I can't recall there being any space that wasn't already flagged for commercial space, a park, or something else. I very much doubt that Melnyk would be in a position to just decide to throw in a(nother) stadium as this would represent a fairly significant change to his group's proposal.

I wouldn't doubt that he'd be able to find space somewhere else (maybe even a cheaper spot on the Gatineau side?), but I can't see a(nother) stadium happening at Lebreton.

Edited August 9, 2017 by m-g-williams

[-Hammer-]

22 hours ago, Initial B said:

I think regardless of what we Fury supporters think, I believe the response from Fury FO is telling - they obviously don't see themselves as having the financial backing to compete in the CPL as proposed. Thus they downplay the viability of the CPL as a travel impossibility. With the current USL regional setup, they can bus to a large number of their games, saving money. OSEG are trying to run the team on the cheap and don't want to leave USL. They must be worried that they can't make it profitable if they need to pay for Airfares, nevermind the expected salaries. It's going to take a lot of enticing for them to jump ship, I think.

Now I imagine Eugene Melnyk (owner of the Senators) would be up for getting on board with a plan to include a small CPL sized stadium in his new Lebreton Flats project. He tried for an MLS franchise, so I could see him making a play for a CPL one. Heck, the cost of one Sens player would cover the salaries of an entire CPL roster. If that happens, expect the anti-CPL rhetoric from the Fury to increase by an order of magnitude.

I don't think you are going to see someone drop a CPL team in Ottawa while the Fury are there. The Fury is slowly growing its fanbase but it's still not to the point where it's a money maker. A CPL team is even more of a risk, and you would be fighting against an established brand, in a market that's not big enough for the two of them. Frankly if the Fury don't opt to jump to the CPL I only see that jump happening if the ownership gets pressured into it by fans, the CPL proves the Fury can make more money in the CPL then the USL (something like a television contract would accomplish) or another owner (potentially Melnyk or someone else) buys the team from OSEG (because they are tired of losing money on it) and takes a shot and running it.

[Ansem]

There should be available land on the LRT path

36 minutes ago, m-g-williams said:

I wouldn't doubt that he'd be able to find space somewhere else (maybe even a cheaper spot on the Gatineau side?), but I can't see a(nother) stadium happening at Lebreton.

or along the LRT path?

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

I don't think you are going to see someone drop a CPL team in Ottawa while the Fury are there. The Fury is slowly growing its fanbase but it's still not to the point where it's a money maker. A CPL team is even more of a risk, and you would be fighting against an established brand, in a market that's not big enough for the two of them. Frankly if the Fury don't opt to jump to the CPL I only see that jump happening if the ownership gets pressured into it by fans, the CPL proves the Fury can make more money in the CPL then the USL (something like a television contract would accomplish) or another owner (potentially Melnyk or someone else) buys the team from OSEG (because they are tired of losing money on it) and takes a shot and running it.

Great scenario and a win for all parties.

You could even add that OSEG would bring in extra partners to make the jump to CPL. The latest podcast which Steve Milton made comments on the state of CPL made references to the stake that the CSA have in the league could be much higher than we think.

If that's the case, the CSA has reasons/leverage to push the Fury out of the status quo.

I don't think that the CSA/CPL will hold out indefinitely on FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to make the jump. There are mechanisms to force the issue. I know people might not like reading/hearing it, but that doesn't make it any less true. As Milton points out in the podcast, at the end of the day, CSA holds the cards ultimately and only MLS teams have enough weight/leverage to be left alone in MLS for now.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

...I don't think that the CSA/CPL will hold out indefinitely on FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury to make the jump. There are mechanisms to force the issue. I know people might not like reading/hearing it, but that doesn't make it any less true. As Milton points out in the podcast, at the end of the day, CSA holds the cards ultimately and only MLS teams have enough weight/leverage to be left alone in MLS for now.

K-W United seem to have had sufficient clout to stay in PDL after they were supposed to be leaving for L1O. Once sanctioning has been given it's difficult to reverse it again, if the business involved doesn't want to play along with the CSA's preferred outcome, because business law kicks in and the CSA is subject to Canada's legal system.

[Ansem]

50 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

K-W United seem to have had sufficient clout to stay in PDL after they were supposed to be leaving for L1O.

I'm not aware of this particular case. Someone could give me more info? They stayed in PDL because they were allowed by CSA to do so. Good for them if they gave the rationale to stay in PDL, but a rationale must have been requested from the CSA. Allowing Canadians to play at a higher level than provincial D4 is a damn good one.

When the Fury went to USL, they had a good rationale to do the jump. NASL was/is unstable and it's more expensive to operate in it. Most importantly, there's no Division 2 in Canada that could be and alternative. It's good for the CSA to allow Canadian players to play in a higher competitive league as moving the Fury to L1O would have made little sense at the time.

Hypothetically, if L1O was similar in level of play to USL at that time and higher than PDL at that time, guess where both K-W United and the Fury would have been heading...

See the pattern? Those decision are ultimately made on what serve Canada soccer the best, not because they have some allegiance to team owners who knew the conditions of inter-country sanctioning and still signed on it.

This is where MLS hits a wall with the CSA. Granted that Canadians play at a higher level in MLS, it's not nearly enough to serve the CSA National team goals.

Agree or disagree with Montagliani's position, he felt that at the end of the day, it was still a one sided deal from his perspective. (Canada Soccer granting MLS access to enabled MLS to top North American markets, revenues, exposure, stability and worldwide fame/credibility) By the latter, I mean Montreal signing Drogba, TFC with Defoe and Giovinco and now Vancouver with Davies). Our markets brought a LOT to MLS (attendance record, viewership record etc).

He also felt that the results spoke for themselves (horrible post MLS record), hence aggressively trying to get a better deal and come up with CPL which would serve Canada's interest, which MLS isn't. He said as much in his interview with The Guardian when he threatened to de-sanction MLS from Canada.

For the longest time, I was of the opinion that MLS clubs should be in CPL. Is that best for Canadian Soccer? Today it isn't. We're soon going to get the best of both worlds, effectively. CPL + MLS for Canadians to play in top leagues + play lots of minutes, and regardless of what some think about MLS domestic rules, we still won a "preferential" status. That, is ultimately the main reason why MLS teams will be left alone.

CSA does what it thinks (granted recently) is best for Canadian Soccer. That's their mandate, so I'm not surprised that K-W United got a pass, same for the Fury at that time to go to USL and why MLS clubs will be left alone for now.

50 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Once sanctioning has been given it's difficult to reverse it again, if the business involved doesn't want to play along with the CSA's preferred outcome, because business law kicks in and the CSA is subject to Canada's legal system.

Tell that to the CSL

You couldn`t be more wrong about this. You`ll find little precedents about domestics laws overruling major leagues over issues (league inner rules and conventions) as long as they don't break that country's law.

Sanctioning is a privilege, not a right. You can't use domestic laws to prevent FIFA from removing it's sanctioning. All parties knew and agreed in advance the conditions regarding sanctioning.  In this case, FIFA convention makes it crystal clear that the country's association, in this case the CSA, has the authority on their own territory and playing in another country must be approve by the CSA and FIFA.

If the CSA decides that it's in Canada's best interest to have all it's teams within Canadian leagues, there nothing Canadian laws can do about it. Said team can appeal it to FIFA but that's it after that. Suing the CSA is suing FIFA, good luck with that.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just now, Ansem said:

Tell that to the CSL

How much have the CSA been able to do to stop the CSL from operating as a soccer league business in Canada? The league is still running. A Bulgarian player recently signed for a club in Scotland after moving from a CSL team, so playing in an unsanctioned league doesn't seem to be having a negative impact on player's careers in terms of being banned in some way because employment laws kick in at that point.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/edinburgh-city/edinburgh-city-sign-calum-hall-and-zdravko-karadachki-1-4509832

The CSA holds some powers to govern the sport, but they are still subject to the legal system and the problem they face on issues like this is opening themselves up for expensive legal actions under business and employment law that they could wind up losing. Dumping the CSL from a sanctioning that they weren't even close to meeting the conditions of wasn't smooth sailing in legal terms as the courts ultimately gave the CSL an extra year under CSA sanctioning against the CSA's wishes and the CSA had to comply. So yes, they can threaten to remove sanctiongs, but whether they can follow through in practical terms is another matter and it's not clear why the USL and NASL are different from MLS in that regard and how the CSA could get away with going after one but not the other other than it fitting your preferred outcome.

 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

How much have the CSA been able to do to stop the CSL from operating as a soccer league business in Canada? The league is still running. A Bulgarian player recently signed for a club in Scotland after moving from a CSL team, so playing in an unsanctioned league doesn't seem to be having a negative impact on player's careers in terms of being banned in some way because employment laws kick in at that point.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/edinburgh-city/edinburgh-city-sign-calum-hall-and-zdravko-karadachki-1-4509832

The CSA holds some powers to govern the sport, but they are still subject to the legal system and the problem they face on issues like this is opening themselves up for expensive legal actions under business and employment law that they could wind up losing. Dumping the CSL from a sanctioning that they weren't even close to meeting the conditions of wasn't smooth sailing in legal terms as the courts ultimately gave the CSL an extra year under CSA sanctioning against the CSA's wishes and the CSA had to comply. So yes, they can threaten to remove sanctiongs, but whether they can follow through in practical terms is another matter and it's not clear why the USL and NASL are different from MLS in that regard and how the CSA could get away with going after one but not the other other than it fitting your preferred outcome.

I won't even reply to your claim that playing in an unsanctioned league isn't that big of a deal. Don't know where you're try to go with that but safe to assume that those teams aren't worth a lot, don't draw and aren't on tv. De-sanctioning is the quickest way to see the value of your team collapse almost overnight, so no, such threat isn't to be taken lightly.

Of course the CSL would try to fight it but ultimately lost their sanctioning. Canadian laws were unable to overrule FIFA Conventions, just delay the inevitable. Nothing is easy, but they proved they can indeed follow through with their threats.

USL and NASL both allows Canadians to be domestics on both side of the border and would be happy to expand all over Canada if they were able too. MLS having a more rigid approach to the matter restricts the benefits that the CSA can gain from that arrangement. Montagliani's moves makes clear that status quo in his opinion was not in the best interest of Canadian Soccer, hence moving on CPL.

My preferred outcome? I like having my cake and eat it too. Let's keep our 3 MLS clubs, enjoy our preferential status for homegrown players and build CPL to make it a great domestic league. That's my preferred outcome!

 

 

[Gopherbashi]

So, um, does anyone have an idea about when we'll be hearing about more clubs?

Any CSA AGMs on the horizon?

[Rheo]

Do you think if anyone knew anything that they would keep it quiet...

Well actually some people do know more than they are allowed to say lol.  Unfortunately all we can do is wait and guess.  Maybe something will come out either before or during Beirne at the Footy Talks event in Toronto in October but who knows.

[Ansem]

It was funny to hear the latest podcast where Milton says that CPL learned one major thing from the CFL: They are are truly "leak-proof".