CPL new teams speculation

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

So, um, does anyone have an idea about when we'll be hearing about more clubs?

Any CSA AGMs on the horizon?

The window for getting everything in place for a July 2018 launch is closing very fast now when you think about everything that's involved on that in logistical terms such as hiring front office staff and a coach, arranging access to scheduling dates at stadia they don't necessarily own, selling season tickets (why are they not taking deposits so people can be first in line for preferred seats, etc?) and perhaps most importantly putting a roster of players that can provide a watchable entertainment product together using in the first instance this winter's transfer window to get some Canadians to return from summer season overseas and American D2 leagues before they sign contracts elsewhere for next year. The next indications on what is happening next summer will probably be provided by whether the Soccer Nova Scotia event happens next month in Halifax, and whether FC Edmonton, the Ottawa Fury and K-W United sign up for season 2018 in the NASL, USL and PDL.

[mpg_29]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The window for getting everything in place for a July 2018 launch is closing very fast now when you think about everything that's involved on that in logistical terms such as hiring front office staff and a coach, arranging access to scheduling dates at stadia they don't necessarily own, selling season tickets (why are they not taking deposits so people can be first in line for preferred seats, etc?) and perhaps most importantly putting a roster of players that can provide a watchable entertainment product together using in the first instance this winter's transfer window to get some Canadians to return from summer season overseas and American D2 leagues before they sign contracts elsewhere for next year. The next indications on what is happening next summer will probably be provided by whether the Soccer Nova Scotia event happens next month in Halifax, and whether FC Edmonton, the Ottawa Fury and K-W United sign up for season 2018 in the NASL, USL and PDL.

Yeah the chances of this league starting in what would be essentially 1 year from now seems pretty slim...I think we are pretty much at spring 2019 as the new earliest starting point. Starting just after the WC would have been a nice lead in though...

Edited August 10, 2017 by mpg_29

[Kent]

22 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'm not aware of this particular case. Someone could give me more info? They stayed in PDL because they were allowed by CSA to do so. Good for them if they gave the rationale to stay in PDL, but a rationale must have been requested from the CSA. Allowing Canadians to play at a higher level than provincial D4 is a damn good one.

When the Fury went to USL, they had a good rationale to do the jump. NASL was/is unstable and it's more expensive to operate in it. Most importantly, there's no Division 2 in Canada that could be and alternative. It's good for the CSA to allow Canadian players to play in a higher competitive league as moving the Fury to L1O would have made little sense at the time.

I'm having a hard time following your logic. Let me see if I have your points correct.

- you think the CSA are likely to eventually force FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury into CPL if they don't go voluntarily
- a counter point was raised. KW United was allowed to stay in the PDL after the CSA (OSA?) made the decision that Ontario teams would no longer be sanctioned to play in PDL. You believe that isn't a good argument because KW must have had a good reason, like they want a higher level of play (and likely, more expensive league)
- Ottawa being allowed to move to USL was also OK for the exact opposite of KW United, because it was a cheaper league (with likely a bit lower average level of play)

Why do you think KW is able to come up with a reason and FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury will not be able to?

21 hours ago, Ansem said:

I won't even reply to your claim that playing in an unsanctioned league isn't that big of a deal. Don't know where you're try to go with that but safe to assume that those teams aren't worth a lot, don't draw and aren't on tv. De-sanctioning is the quickest way to see the value of your team collapse almost overnight, so no, such threat isn't to be taken lightly.

Are you under the impression that the CSL teams were worth a lot before the desanctioning? Weren't there still highlights being shown on local news in KW for a CSL team after desanctioning?

 

I really want the Eddies and Fury to come to CPL, but BBTB raises good points about how hard it would be for the CSA to force the issue.

[Gopherbashi]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

Are you under the impression that the CSL teams were worth a lot before the desanctioning? Weren't there still highlights being shown on local news in KW for a CSL team after desanctioning?

Hell, CSL standings still appear in the Star sports section from time-to-time.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

would the USL and NASL still accept them after they have been desanctioned? Has it ever happened before? Obviously we don't know what would happen right now. I kinda doubt that the USL would... But the NASL would take anybody right now i think.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That angle isn't what would scare off the CSA so much, It's more the danger of getting sued for damage to their businesses and the loss of value where their franchise is concerned. When MLS is involved that could run into hundreds of millions per franchise. If they don't go after MLS how can they reasonably do it to the NASL and USL teams?

Edited August 10, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

45 minutes ago, Kent said:

I'm having a hard time following your logic. Let me see if I have your points correct.

- you think the CSA are likely to eventually force FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury into CPL if they don't go voluntarily
- a counter point was raised. KW United was allowed to stay in the PDL after the CSA (OSA?) made the decision that Ontario teams would no longer be sanctioned to play in PDL. You believe that isn't a good argument because KW must have had a good reason, like they want a higher level of play (and likely, more expensive league)
- Ottawa being allowed to move to USL was also OK for the exact opposite of KW United, because it was a cheaper league (with likely a bit lower average level of play)

Why do you think KW is able to come up with a reason and FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury will not be able to?

My point was such decisions made by the CSA are driven by the CSA interests above those of the owners. About KW United and Ottawa Fury decisions, were they made for the good of Canadian Soccer or to do a favor to the owners? When I say that they have to provide a "rationale" for the sanctioning, it's just pointing out that they are following the hierarchy, they don't tell the CSA what to do, they ask and the CSA grants or denies those requests. I support the KW United and Fury sanctioning in USSF because at the time, it was the best decision for Canadian Soccer.

To get to your question, the landscape has changed. It never truly hit me until that podcast. The CSA seems to be more than just a partner of CPL but an actual major stakeholder in the league. So the league's interest becomes the CSA interests and their fate are intertwined way more than we think as of now.

Example: When Hamilton wanted to allow other clubs to bid to be able to play at Tim Hortons Field, why do you think the CSA came out so quickly saying there would be no sanctioning of any teams playing out of that stadium except the team from the Tiger-Cats group? To force the city to grant the soccer rights to the Tigers-Cats, and if they don't understand what not getting a sanction means, they will once they realize that no one will be interested except the Tiger-Cats.

Because the CSA is protecting the CPL, its stake in it and will react whenever something or someone gets in the way. Which bring me to FC Edmonton and Ottawa Fury. As long as they keep the status quo, they are an obstacle to the league which works against the CSA interests. Without going as far as the CSA forcing them into CPL, do you think the CSA will sit there and do nothing which will lock them out of the #2 and #3 market outside of the main 3 cities? Not a chance.

My argument is from a business perspective. At the end of the day, sports is a business and there's nothing "cute" about it. One thing is sure, status quo won't last.

45 minutes ago, Kent said:

I really want the Eddies and Fury to come to CPL, but BBTB raises good points about how hard it would be for the CSA to force the issue.

No one wants them to be forced, but there can be incentives to get them to join. There are ways to "persuade" and Montagliani said that he expects those teams to understand that it's in their own best interest to join.

Such incentives could be:

Monopoly/territorial rights:As of now, they enjoy a monopoly. It's in their best interest to work at finding a way to be able to join and keep that monopoly. If they don't, someone along the way will bid on those 2 cities and the CSA/CPL won't ignore those bids. If they get approved, they'd have the full support of both CSA and CPL. Best to negociate to have such rights.

Ex; Ottawa Fury could demand that Gatineau be considered "theirs" and free from expansions. Edmonton could do the same about the city protecting their monopoly. The Maples Leafs claims to have such rights and would required "compensations" to infringe on their territory.

Lower or waived expansion fee: Compensating for entering and exiting USL-NASL

More time while guaranteeing they keep their monopoly: If OSEG needs more time to get a partner or wants to evaluate their options regarding the team, it's reasonable to allow them more time. Same for Edmonton. The league then would be wise to forget a 2018 launch, potentially even 2019 if they don't have the Edmonton and Ottawa angle sorted out. If those 2 wants to join but needs more time to get their financial plan in place, they should be allowed that extra time

See? there are ways to "force" the issue without using a stick, which is a scenario no one wants.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ansem

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

would the USL and NASL still accept them after they have been desanctioned? Has it ever happened before? Obviously we don't know what would happen right now. I kinda doubt that the USL would... But the NASL would take anybody right now i think.

Not a chance.

My point is that the CSA has that power, doesn't mean they will use it. As I wrote above. There are ways to convince those 2 to join CPL but status quo for the medium long term is unlikely. Very unlikely

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Because the CSA is protecting the CPL, its stake in it and will react whenever something or someone gets in the way.

Seems like it will make a great antitrust lawsuit some day.

[-Hammer-]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:08 AM, Ansem said:

It was funny to hear the latest podcast where Milton says that CPL learned one major thing from the CFL: They are are truly "leak-proof".

 

You know something, I never really ever thought about it, but I can't honestly remember the last time something odd or controversial leaked from the CFL. The closest thing would be teams violating the practice and roster rules (predominantly Saskatchewan) but rarely anything out of the league itself.

[harrycoyster]

52 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

You know something, I never really ever thought about it, but I can't honestly remember the last time something odd or controversial leaked from the CFL. The closest thing would be teams violating the practice and roster rules (predominantly Saskatchewan) but rarely anything out of the league itself.

The CFL is notoriously tight-lipped on the business end. American leagues can't be as they need to have open books to maintain non-profit status in the US and have considerably more involved player's unions. 

[harrycoyster]

21 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

Seems like it will make a great antitrust lawsuit some day.

It's a slam dunk antitrust case. The CSA can't force anybody into the CPL via desanctioning given the stake they have in the CPL. They'd have to use more indirect methods like the USSF did in raising the official D1 standards to desanction the APSL and leave MLS as the uncontested D1 American league in the mid-90s.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

It's a slam dunk antitrust case. The CSA can't force anybody into the CPL via desanctioning given the stake they have in the CPL. They'd have to use more indirect methods like the USSF did in raising the official D1 standards to desanction the APSL and leave MLS as the uncontested D1 American league in the mid-90s.

Fifa rules may appear to be anti-trust, but they have jurisdiction over the game. They would never move against a national federation duly applying them. 

At some point, IMO, FIFA should step in with the US and ask them to move closer to the FIFA standard. But until then, the CPL can be a legitimate counter model to the NA system if the CSA plays it right

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Fifa rules may appear to be anti-trust, but they have jurisdiction over the game. They would never move against a national federation duly applying them. 

At some point, IMO, FIFA should step in with the US and ask them to move closer to the FIFA standard. But until then, the CPL can be a legitimate counter model to the NA system if the CSA plays it right

I'm not even talking about FIFA laws, I'm talking Canadian antitrust law. The CSA desanctioning a team because they aren't in the league they have a direct interest in against an established precedent would give Ottawa/Edmonton a hell of a lawsuit.

Remember, the Canadian Football Act never got passed despite overwhelming support and the very real threat of American football colonizing Canada in the 70s because of how strong Canadian anti-trust and monopoly law is. And they had precedent, which is the biggest single factor in allowing allowing trust behavior. The CSA doesn't have that.

Edited August 11, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Ansem]

The CSA would never force a move to CPL. That would be beyond stupid and highly counterproductive. Removing the sanctioning however is well within their rights. Without forcing a move to CPL, they have enough leverage to ultimately get what they want without forcing anyone to do anything.

1-Just allowing CPL bids from deeper pockets owners in Ottawa and Edmonton is incentive enough to "force them" to make the right choice or a choice.

•Come out with a business plan and join CPL and keep the monopoly

•Status quo and lose your monopoly to another team that will have more financial means and more support than their team. Direct competition will hurt their revenues regardless.

Ottawa being reported to have been "shocked" by CPL financial montage, then shutting down their academy to become a pseudo Montreal academy... don't know about Edmonton, not sure the Fury has the stomach for direct competition. (Not sure Miami FC are liking that Beckham will be competing with them in their city)

•Status quo and move the team to a city where you'll have a better chance to succeed by avoiding direct competition.

De-sanctioning, which is well within their rights isn't necessary for the CSA to get what it wants.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Ansem

[harrycoyster]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The CSA would never force a move to CPL. That would be beyond stupid and highly counterproductive. Removing the sanctioning however is well within their rights.

It's within their power, not necessarily within their rights. They'd almost certainly lose the legal battle and maybe even the CAS case unless they can prove significant wrongdoing on the part of the club or failure to meet clearly stated CSA standards. 

[Ansem]

Not interested in debating league rights and rules over civil law. There's so many instances of leagues getting their conventions upheld whenever those were challenged in court.

We have a precedent of the CSA doing just that, removing their sanction. That move was protested and they failed to over turn it.

That wasn't my point here. My point was that the CSA holds all the cards here. They have the leverage to have the outcome they want.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

...That wasn't my point here. My point was that the CSA holds all the cards here. They have the leverage to have the outcome they want.

You want that to be the case because it fits your desired outcome but you haven't been able to prove that it really is the case and the K-W United example I cited suggests the reality is otherwise.

The problem for the CSA is that they have already conceded that the MLS teams can run reserve operations in the USSF's D2, so it isn't just the three MLS teams operating at D1 that are going to be part of the pro soccer landscape in the years ahead regardless of what happens with the Fury and FC Edmonton. Right now the Fury are effectively operating as one of those through the affiliation agreement with the Impact and that sort of arrangment and some of the other models being pursued south of the border in cities like Reno, Nevada could provide the template for rebranded TFC and Whitecaps operations expanding their presence in markets that would also be suitable for a domestic pro league team. TFC tried to get their reserve team into Hamilton in the relatively recent past and there have been rumours about the Whitecaps FC 2 team moving to Alberta. USL is going to be part of the landscape as well and that complicates the narrative on what is the second level to MLS in the eyes of the media and the wider soccer community and what is the main pathway to the big time for promising young Canadian players.

CPL have a window of two maybe three years to get something clearly viable and sustainable up and running or pressure will start to build for the CSA to finally drop the moratorium type stance and let USSF leagues expand into Canada as they see fit. If CPL worked with rather than at cross-purposes to the MLS reserve teams, we would probably have already heard a 2018 launch announcement. Instead with their no rebranded B team stance the order of the day on that, it looks to me like it's no sure thing yet that we will ever be hearing one of those, if FC Edmonton and the Ottawa Fury steer clear.

Edited August 12, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[matty]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

USL is going to be part of the landscape as well and that complicates the narrative on what is the second level to MLS in the eyes of the media and the wider soccer community and what is the main pathway to the big time for promising young Canadian players.

The USL is likely to be solely B-teams that play near their parent club in Canada. It will be seen as part of the MLS system and media will continue to ignore.

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

CPL have a window of two maybe three years to get something clearly viable and sustainable up and running or pressure will start to build for the CSA to finally drop the moratorium type stance and let USSF leagues expand into Canada as they see fit. 

There's been no official moratorium for like 6 years now, there just hasn't been an interest beyond what we've seen at the pro level but I agree if nothing is running by 2020 someone is going to try and get a club going.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You want that to be the case because it fits your desired outcome but you haven't been able to prove that it really is the case and the K-W United example I cited suggests the reality is otherwise.

Desired outcome? It's call a hierarchy for a reason. Your desired outcome is to think that teams runs the CSA and can do whatever they like. I answered the K-W example already. 

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The problem for the CSA is that they have already conceded that the MLS teams can run reserve operations in the USSF's D2, so it isn't just the three MLS teams operating at D1 that are going to be part of the pro soccer landscape in the years ahead regardless of what happens with the Fury and FC Edmonton. Right now the Fury are effectively operating as one of those through the affiliation agreement with the Impact and that sort of arrangment and some of the other models being pursued south of the border in cities like Reno, Nevada could provide the template for rebranded TFC and Whitecaps operations expanding their presence in markets that would also be suitable for a domestic pro league team. TFC tried to get their reserve team into Hamilton in the relatively recent past and there have been rumours about the Whitecaps FC 2 team moving to Alberta. USL is going to be part of the landscape as well and that complicates the narrative on what is the second level to MLS in the eyes of the media and the wider soccer community and what is the main pathway to the big time for promising young Canadian players.

And the CSA was quick to flex their muscles in Hamilton by issuing a warning that no team would get a CSA sanction except CPL at Tim Horton Field. At this point, it's safe to assume that if Vancouver tried to go to Calgary or Edmonton and that those cities already had an owner/or bids on the table, the CSA would do the same. 

By the way, USL wants to drop the B teams to D3. 

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

CPL have a window of two maybe three years to get something clearly viable and sustainable up and running or pressure will start to build for the CSA to finally drop the moratorium type stance and let USSF leagues expand into Canada as they see fit. If CPL worked with rather than at cross-purposes to the MLS reserve teams, we would probably have already heard a 2018 launch announcement. Instead with their no rebranded B team stance the order of the day on that, it looks to me like it's no sure thing yet that we will ever be hearing one of those, if FC Edmonton and the Ottawa Fury steer clear.

Your preferred outcome...you made it very clear. The USSF should be running soccer in Canada with the CSA knowing their role, shutting their mouths and sanctioning whatever they wants to do here.

The CSA made it clear that it wants to keep it Canadian and expand Canadian Soccer under its umbrella. It isn't about "misguided national pride", it's about doing what like 95%+ of other nations are already doing...running their own thing to serve their own interest. There's nothing wrong with that or prideful, it's doing what they have the right to do.

The CSA/CPL partnership wants to both make money and improve the national program.

The USSF just wants to make money in Canada and could care less about our national program.

You say pro CPL are prideful, well the pro USSF have a "colonized" attitude (makes more sense in french "colonisé"). How's that any better. The 10th most powerful economy on this earth is capable to have its own league and run it's own pyramid

Edited August 12, 2017 by Ansem

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

....Your preferred outcome...you made it very clear....etc etc

So others can understand where I stand even if this guy doesn't, I am in favour of whatever works best for boosting the number and quality of Canadian pro soccer teams in the long run and the question of whether that be under USSF or CSA sanctioning isn't something I care about all that much in ideological terms, because I view it pragmatically. Paul Beirne's vision of focussing on smaller markets plus multiple teams in the big cities sounds good and it would be great to see it unfold in the way he describes, but it remains to be seen whether investors will buy into that to the extent that is needed to actually get it off the ground given the relatively high break evens that they are still talking about given they also need to cater to the ambitions of the two founding CFL stadium franchises. I'm somewhat skeptical Paul Beirne's stated vision in podcasts is what Bob Young and the Blue Bombers actually really want rather than being something that has been forced on them by circumstances, because the soccer version of the CFL fueled by a solo 2026 hosting bid scenario didn't materialize.

Edited August 12, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So others can understand where I stand even if this guy doesn't, I am in favour of whatever works best for boosting the number and quality of Canadian pro soccer teams in the long run and the question of whether that be under USSF or CSA sanctioning isn't something I care about all that much in ideological terms, because I view it pragmatically. Paul Beirne's vision of focussing on smaller markets plus multiple teams in the big cities sounds good and it would be great to see it unfold in the way he describes, but it remains to be seen whether investors will buy into that to the extent that is needed to actually get it off the ground given the relatively high break evens that they are still talking about given they also need to cater to the ambitions of the two founding CFL stadium franchises. I'm asomewhat skeptical Paul Beirne's stated vision in podcasts is what Bob Young and the Blue Bombers actually really want rather than being something that has been forced on them by circumstances, because the soccer version of the CFL fueled by a solo 2026 hosting bid scenario didn't materialize.

Blah blah blah

And most see the results for themselves. We need more players playing more minutes playing at a higher level.

The USSF model has been a failure in the sense that although they did develop players and gave some opportunities, it's insufficient by a mile. We haven't won anything since 2000, not made the hex in decades.

I applaud the CSA to try something different. Status quo is insufficient to accomplish our goals.

For the rest... that's just that...your opinion. MLS had major hiccups at starts and delays over delays while almost folding, yet you really like to nitpick on CPL for stuff that worries you.

Many already said, best to start strong later than soon and weak. They could start it in 2020 for all I care, as long as it's a strong start and they do it right

Edited August 12, 2017 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

I feel like we are making real progress here...

[shermanator]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 8:46 AM, shermanator said:

Oh no, a terrible USL level coach thinks CPL is a shit idea. Pack it in, boys.

Soooooo this USL coach is now out of the picture. Let us rejoice!

[matty]

In regards to Windsor http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20170908/news/638486/arn-tellem-detroit-mls-expansion-team-could-play-by-2020