CPL new teams speculation

[Initial B]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Given that the average NASL club lost $5 million USD a season in 2016 and the Caps lost ~$5 million in USL last year, I'd imagine the number is a couple million higher.

None of those teams had national TV contract revenue to draw from, which is why I've been saying that without an annual TV contract worth $10-20 million from CBC or another cable provider, the league isn't sustainable.

[harrycoyster]

6 minutes ago, Initial B said:

None of those teams had national TV contract revenue to draw from, which is why I've been saying that without an annual TV contract worth $10-20 million from CBC or another cable provider, the league isn't sustainable.

I'm talking straight costs before revenue. You can safely assume the total costs is $5-7 million if you are going to have a NASL level salary.

[matty]

1 hour ago, PJSweet said:

Here's my question to everyone. If you have a league with 10 teams, and every team is divided into 2 division: 5 in the East and 5 in the West. How many games (home and away) will every team play? Can I also have the answer for a league with 12 teams as well? Please do the math for me?

10 teams (4 against conference rivals 2 against inter)

16 in conference and 10 interconcerence for 26

12 teams

20 in conference 12 inter for 32

[matty]

47 minutes ago, Initial B said:

I've spent many hours calculating scenarios for that.

For a 10-team league, I see them playing 10 games (home-and-away) against the teams in the opposing conference and the remaining 18 games against in-conference teams (2x home-and-away plus 2 extra games against closest rivals).

For a 12-team league, it's 12 games (home-and-away) against opposing conference and 16 games (3 games per opponent + 1 extra against closest rival) in-conference.

<Edit: At 15 teams, it's just home and away against every other team in the league.>

<Edit 2: And if we ever get to 20 teams, it will be scheduled as was MLS circa 2016.>

Why the fuck would you do that? It makes zero sense

Edited December 18, 2017 by matty

[Ansem]

Pretty obvious by now that it will be a single table league, so no conferences

[ironcub14]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:54 PM, mpg_29 said:

It's funny that you hear arguments that the salaries have to be a certain standard and also that this league is should be mostly helping young Canadian players. I think both are a bit at odds with each other.

I think a relatively low salary cap (500K) would not only be advantageous for league sustainability but would also ensure a large percentage of the player pool is young Canadian players by default from a salary market point of view.

Unless you think trying to get 5000 fans every game to pay a quota'd  22 yr old Canadian player 50K-75K for 6 months is smart either from an league sustainability point of view  or soccer point of view.

 

I'm glad somebody said this, because I don't think I've seen one person point this out in the couple years I've been here specifically on the CPL sub-forum. I'm sure somebody's probably said it before, but I just don't remember seeing it. It's going to be fun to see what the final product looks like. 

Me personally, I have a gut feeling that the potential owners will cater more to the mainstream than the V's, and will go with the higher salaries and/or less number of Canadian players that some V's would like, but PB will most definitely help in finding the right balance for all these metrics. I think, as long as CPL treats Americans as non-domestics, most V's will be happy with whatever non-domestic quota or restrictions or domestic spots or whatever you want to call it is decided upon. 

[BradMack]

7 hours ago, Initial B said:

Here's what I see as a decent payscale for a club in CPL

1 x $150K (Marquee player)

4 x $100K  (Team spine players)

6 x $80K (Main starting players)

4 x $60K (Key sub players)

4 x $50K (Secondary sub players)

7 x $40K (U23 Development players)

$1,750K for 26 players TOTAL

For most starting players and key subs, that is enough of a salary to live comfortably in any Canadian City save the big 3. In a lot of the smaller cities, even the Developmental players would be able to get by. Operating expenses including support personnel, air travel, accommodations, and home stadium operations costs could add another $2 million to the annual costs to the club for a 28-game season. Does $4 million per year sound out of place for running a club? Multiply by 8-12 teams and add advertising and Front Office salaries to the mix and that comes out to $40-50 million per year to run the CPL. 

If each team can sell 5000 tickets per game at $25 per ticket for 14 home games, that would be $1,750K in revenues (not including concession sales and merchandise). If the league could raise another $20-30 million in advertising fees and TV contracts, then the league could become sustainable. 

 

 

I think you have to knock those salaries down a few pegs. lets say there's a 50% Canadian quota for rosters, you can assume a lot of these players will be in the $40k and $50k roster spots you've outlined, and you can also assume that for a lot of these players that will be a raise of $40k-$50k. I know we all want to have these guys completely focused on soccer but the reality is that it is a business and if it is unsuccesful then these guys will go back to making $0 playing PDL or League 1 Ontario. I think this league is all about giving our guys a shot, and hopefully some will take that shot and go on to bigger leagues or earn raises in CPL. Up until a few years ago the back end MLS guys were making less than $40K. The players need to be payed, but they in no way deserve a $40k contract based on their actual market value. I'd say it should go something like this....

1 x $150K (Marquee player)

3 x $100K  (Team spine players)

7 x $80K (Main starting players)

3 x $55K (Key sub players)

5 x $40K (Secondary sub players)

7 x $25K (U23 Development players)

$1,550K for 26 players TOTAL

If your scouting is right you can get good players for 80k, the marquee and team spine players should be worth watching as well, the subs will get playing time and hopefully through some of the developmental guys will get a chance and run with it. The lower end guys will most likely need to live in 3 or 4 bedroom apartments, and have off season jobs, most likely coaching, but it is still a way better scenario than they have going for them right now. Honestly $25k for around 8 months is nothing to laugh at either when you're 18-22, especially if the team is providing some living expenses which is the case a lot of the time. For my CPL club in Halifax you can easily find 3 bdrm appartments in the area for around 300 bucks a month each. It's probably more in some of the other cities but $25k is not unlivable if you're a young single person which most of these guys will be. 

 

Just to add on to this I think it is only fair to pay these guys such a small amount if they are treated fairly when it comes to contracts being honored. There should be no ability to trade these players within the league unless they agree to it, too much risk involved for so little financial reward. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by BradMack

[Cheeta]

8 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Given that the average NASL club lost $5 million USD a season in 2016 and the Caps lost ~$5 million in USL last year, I'd imagine the number is a couple million higher.

Really?  That's totally messed up.  Of course they could be engineered to loose money.  Don't know.  But still, wow. 

Just want to mention, a-gin, this is going to be a gate revenue league.  If off-field revenue from sponsors can be found to cover the actual costs of running the league (on and off field officials, HQ staff, team travel, those sorts of things) I would be impressed but still have a hard time imagining any broadcast revenue any time soon.  Anyone factoring broadcast revenue into their business plan shouldn't be allowed within a 100 miles of this enterprise. 

Plenty of off-field revenue opportunities, guess the trick will be finding enough of them.  

 

[BradMack]

NASL lost that sort of money because its an absolute mess. Teams are spending more than they can realistically afford on player salaries to try to keep up with the big boys and also have to pay for huge amounts of money in broadcasting fees because of the cosmos lead deal with bein sport. 

[Ansem]

There was that post from @Complete Homer

Paraphrasing from an interview with Paul Beirne from the NSCAC's Journal for Soccer Coaches

• In a response to a question about drafts and free agency, the league doesn't want to have many rules and constraints about the acquisition and distribution of player, but they have to have discussions on how things will work with the initial launch with such a high volume of player acquisitions that will have to be made. They also estimate that teams will need 2 transfer windows to have adequate time to build rosters.

Don't know about you guys, but it doesn't sound like a hard cap will be imposed. Since we aren't dealing with CSL/NASL owners who were most of the time irresponsible, seems like CPL owners so far sounds like they can work within a soft cap or rules surrounding how and how much teams can spend. Some ownership might have the means to spend lots of cash on players and others like maybe Halifax might spend more moderately.

If the average is $2M and Bob Young wants to spend $5-6M on players because he has the means to do it without compromising himself, should we stop him from doing so? Looking at past tweets from him, he seems eager to have a top club.

That's my feeling on the matter.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ansem

[Complete Homer]

@Ansem

FYI those weren't quotes, it was paraphrasing. It was pretty close paraphrasing but I don't want to be accused of misrepresentation in case there was anything slightly wrong 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

@Ansem

FYI those weren't quotes, it was paraphrasing. It was pretty close paraphrasing but I don't want to be accused of misrepresentation in case there was anything slightly wrong 

Awesome, changed my post. :-)

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ansem

[yellowsweatygorilla]

14 hours ago, BradMack said:

I think you have to knock those salaries down a few pegs. lets say there's a 50% Canadian quota for rosters, you can assume a lot of these players will be in the $40k and $50k roster spots you've outlined, and you can also assume that for a lot of these players that will be a raise of $40k-$50k. I know we all want to have these guys completely focused on soccer but the reality is that it is a business and if it is unsuccesful then these guys will go back to making $0 playing PDL or League 1 Ontario. I think this league is all about giving our guys a shot, and hopefully some will take that shot and go on to bigger leagues or earn raises in CPL. Up until a few years ago the back end MLS guys were making less than $40K. The players need to be payed, but they in no way deserve a $40k contract based on their actual market value. I'd say it should go something like this....

1 x $150K (Marquee player)

3 x $100K  (Team spine players)

7 x $80K (Main starting players)

3 x $55K (Key sub players)

5 x $40K (Secondary sub players)

7 x $25K (U23 Development players)

$1,550K for 26 players TOTAL

If your scouting is right you can get good players for 80k, the marquee and team spine players should be worth watching as well, the subs will get playing time and hopefully through some of the developmental guys will get a chance and run with it. The lower end guys will most likely need to live in 3 or 4 bedroom apartments, and have off season jobs, most likely coaching, but it is still a way better scenario than they have going for them right now. Honestly $25k for around 8 months is nothing to laugh at either when you're 18-22, especially if the team is providing some living expenses which is the case a lot of the time. For my CPL club in Halifax you can easily find 3 bdrm appartments in the area for around 300 bucks a month each. It's probably more in some of the other cities but $25k is not unlivable if you're a young single person which most of these guys will be. 

 

Just to add on to this I think it is only fair to pay these guys such a small amount if they are treated fairly when it comes to contracts being honored. There should be no ability to trade these players within the league unless they agree to it, too much risk involved for so little financial reward. 

$25k is pretty close to the Canadian poverty line of $23k.. I would like all of our players to be able to earn something closer to a living wage. If they are offering wages that low, the club better be providing housing.

If we want players to be properly focused on their development and prospects to gravitate to the sports as a place where they can make a proper living, we're going to have to pay a little more.

Edited December 19, 2017 by yellowsweatygorilla

[matty]

13 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

$25k is pretty close to the Canadian poverty line of $23k.. I would like all of our players to be able to earn something closer to a living wage. If they are offering wages that low, the club better be providing housing.

If we want players to be properly focused on their development and prospects to gravitate to the sports as a place where they can make a proper living, we're going to have to pay a little more.

Increased pay comes with proven results. 25-30k is fine especially if the players making it are between 18-23 and going to school during the off season.

BTW second jobs exist. It sucks but it likely has to be done

[Complete Homer]

37 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

$25k is pretty close to the Canadian poverty line of $23k.. I would like all of our players to be able to earn something closer to a living wage. If they are offering wages that low, the club better be providing housing.

If we want players to be properly focused on their development and prospects to gravitate to the sports as a place where they can make a proper living, we're going to have to pay a little more.

With the small number of teams and our climate, I think it's fair to assume that the league will have a fairly short season. An April to October season would give you five months in the offseason. Five months at minimum wage pulls in about $9000, so you're thinking closer to $34000 annually. Not great but doable. 

I'm with you though, you would hope for everyone to be on proper professional wages, but they've got to find the point of sustainability. If most USL teams are paying 1000/month in season, it probably shows the actual market value of standard D2 players at the moment. 25k in season would be quadrupling that, something I'd be surprised to see any business do voluntarily. 

[jpg75]

Here's my salary breakdown:

2 x $200K (Marquee players)

5 x $100K  (Team spine players)

6 x $65-70K (Complimentary players)

5 x $40K (Sub players)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

5 x $25K (U25 Canadian Development players)

 

$1.5M for 18 players on the Senior roster.

50/50 domestic/foreign split on the Sr. roster, with an extra 5 CDN "youth" players on the development squad.

Min. of 6 CDN's on the field at any one time.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by jpg75

[An Observer]

I know a lot has been written on here about the salary cap and the quality of play that the league will have.  In my opinion, I would rather start with a relatively small salary cap with a marquee player or two to generate fan interest but spend the money on a “big league” fan atmosphere with high quality tv coverage.  The average fan will not really understand the difference in quality of play but will understand the difference between a big league or mom and pop atmosphere.  This is what the MLS did well.  They made it seem big league so attracted fans.  The CFL on TSN has done the same thing (ie. don’t broadcast matches like Ottawa Fury with all the fans on the camera side). Fans on this board may notice the difference in quality but they will come regardless.  The average fan will only notice the atmosphere.  The eurosnobs won’t come anyway. 

[matty]

54 minutes ago, An Observer said:

I know a lot has been written on here about the salary cap and the quality of play that the league will have.  In my opinion, I would rather start with a relatively small salary cap with a marquee player or two to generate fan interest but spend the money on a “big league” fan atmosphere with high quality tv coverage.  The average fan will not really understand the difference in quality of play but will understand the difference between a big league or mom and pop atmosphere.  This is what the MLS did well.  They made it seem big league so attracted fans.  The CFL on TSN has done the same thing (ie. don’t broadcast matches like Ottawa Fury with all the fans on the camera side). Fans on this board may notice the difference in quality but they will come regardless.  The average fan will only notice the atmosphere.  The eurosnobs won’t come anyway. 

Casuals know the difference between shit and alright soccer. The on field product matters and presentation can only go so far in masking something. Spending little on talent while presenting it as "the place to be" with low rent DPs will flop because casuals can tell when they've been sold a bill of goods.

The CFL btw is not really masking anything. It is a big league.

And Eurosnobs will turn out like they do for MLS. Meaning they'll mock it but still watch because they have fuck all else to watch live and during the afternoon.

Edited December 20, 2017 by matty

[Ansem]

10 hours ago, matty said:

Increased pay comes with proven results. 25-30k is fine especially if the players making it are between 18-23 and going to school during the off season.

BTW second jobs exist. It sucks but it likely has to be done

Pretty sure Montagliani was clear on his vision about CPL. He wanted a league where pros can make a living on soccer alone, not having to work a 2nd job. 

 

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

9 hours ago, jpg75 said:

$1.5M for 18 players on the Senior roster.

50/50 domestic/foreign split on the Sr. roster, with an extra 5 CDN "youth" players on the development squad.

Min. of 6 CDN's on the field at any one time.

Agree 110% @jpg75

[Gopherbashi]

34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Pretty sure Montagliani was clear on his vision about CPL. He wanted a league where pros can make a living on soccer alone, not having to work a 2nd job. 

 

That may be his vision, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily become reality.

It's a good thing to shoot for, sure, but it doesn't mean that your goal is going to be your final product.

[matty]

46 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Pretty sure Montagliani was clear on his vision about CPL. He wanted a league where pros can make a living on soccer alone, not having to work a 2nd job. 

 

I'm talking about at the start. Also CFL guys makes like 75k and still work second jobs so I don't think his vision will come to be.

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, matty said:

I'm talking about at the start. Also CFL guys makes like 75k and still work second jobs so I don't think his vision will come to be.

If they are making 75k then they choose to work second jobs. I guess Vic’s vision could be a soccer league that pays enough where you don’t really need to work a second job but it’s your prerogative if you do.

[Macksam]

8 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

That may be his vision, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily become reality.

It's a good thing to shoot for, sure, but it doesn't mean that your goal is going to be your final product.

It’s probably aspirational. Not something that will be there right out of the gate.

[ChrisinOrleans]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

Pretty sure Montagliani was clear on his vision about CPL. He wanted a league where pros can make a living on soccer alone, not having to work a 2nd job. 

 

Then tell him to put up the cash for a team or two.