Canadian Premier League

[masster]

2 hours ago, red card said:

“So it’s not that we’re anti[-CPL] - that’s not the case at all. We want to work together but we feel very strongly and that’s why I did make some strong comments that in this marketplace we are the best option. I believe if the CPL puts a team in Toronto that tries to compete with TFC, I don’t think that’s a good situation because now we’re competing for players, we’re competing for fans and all these different things. I just don’t think it’s a good option.”

http://www.wakingthered.com/2017/2/24/14726656/bill-manning-canadian-premier-league-cpl-toronto-fc-mls-news

Thats some nice backtracking by Manning trying to soften the edges of his comments.

Competing for players is a good thing. It gives the players options which can only be to their benefit. It also creates a more competitive environment among the players themselves. How many times have we heard coaches say that the young Canadian player is too comfortable. This competitive environment could hopefully help alleviate that.

So I still think Manning is wrong.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

14 minutes ago, masster said:

Thats some nice backtracking by Manning trying to soften the edges of his comments.

Competing for players is a good thing. It gives the players options which can only be to their benefit. It also creates a more competitive environment among the players themselves. How many times have we heard coaches say that the young Canadian player is too comfortable. This competitive environment could hopefully help alleviate that.

So I still think Manning is wrong.

oh yea massive backtrack.  He definitely realized there was a backlash.

and hey, CPL got mentioned on waking the red

thats a positive.

[RS]

1 hour ago, johnyb said:

Progress. A month ago it was TFC III.

It wasn't. That was just an error in the article.

[lazlo_80]

Manning towed the company line. I didn't read much in his interview that shed much light on anything at all. I understand both sides of the argument...TFC2 involvement would make CPL a defacto 2nd division...but not including them whatsoever seems...a little odd.

I really just need an understanding of what the heck this thing is gonna look like at this point to have any real understanding of how I'm supposed to feel about Manning's comments.

[Diamondium]

I continue to be unable to blame Manning in the slightest for his point of view. I disagree with it completely, but there's nothing wrong with him having that view. His pizza analogy is awkwardly worded, but actually is a good analogy that explains his tone as well.

My parents own a breakfast restaurant in retirement. Before they owned this restaurant, they loved all the restaurants in our small town. Now that they own their own restaurant, they view every other breakfast restaurant as inferior because it's not 'theirs', and they are the competition, and would think that way even if the other restaurants were inherently better. I mean, they made everything the way they wanted to make it, how could any other compare from their point of view?

Manning sees CPL this way. Sure, he likes Canadian soccer, but CPL isn't 'his Canadian soccer', so he doesn't view it as if it can ever compete with his own team that is built the way he wants it to be. Then adding in that he stands to lose money if a new game in town opens up, of course he's going to try to either put it down by competing or using it to develop his own team if they'll be game.

In his shoes, I'd be doing the exact same thing. 100%. It's just a damn good thing the people making the CPL aren't in his shoes.

[shermanator]

IMO, Manning's comments are understandable given his position with TFC, but not at all supportive of the league itself.

The way I've interpreted the quotes, he's only supportive of the league if there is something TFC can gain from it (ie. can the players TFC are trying to develop for their first team play in the league). He is supportive of CPL if, and only if, they either do not put a team in the Toronto area to compete with the club, or if they allow TFC to put a reserve team in the league.

That, to me, does not indicate support at all. An understandable position, but one I vehemently disagree with.

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

I don't think anyone here is advocating for deceit. I think what people are trying to say is that there is a difference between CPL being "not as good" as MLS, and the CSA itself implying that CPL is "below" MLS. When you seed MLS teams in the national championship ahead of CPL teams, you aren't just saying that MLS is better right now, you are saying MLS is the ceiling for CPL.

Most leagues seed their Cups that way, by tiers, but if it makes anyone any happier, we could also have a ranking system and seed on past performance for the V-Cup.

I think that would underestimate the interest a lower level team might have in seeing a higher level team visit them for a competitive match. 

[grasshopper1917]

To me really the cups are for the smaller clubs. It is always fun for the minnows to have a chance against the bigger clubs. For example in Halifax I would love to see TFC come to town for a tie. For the bigger clubs it is likely at best a chance to give some of their bench players and reserves some action at worst a nuisance.

[Gordon]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Most leagues seed their Cups that way, by tiers, but if it makes anyone any happier, we could also have a ranking system and seed on past performance for the V-Cup.

I think that would underestimate the interest a lower level team might have in seeing a higher level team visit them for a competitive match. 

This is true, but most countries also need more than 2 hands to count the entrants in their cup competition!

IMO no seeding, tiers or bracket structuring has to happen beyond a mechanism to determine the venue and the two teams playing. Who cares if the Whitecaps Draw the impact in round one while the Winnipeg Flood Planes (SIC) play The Prince Edward Tobacco Cans? Regina's gonna win it anyway.

[Macksam]

I agree there's nothing wrong about Manning having that POV considering he's with TFC and wants that franchise's best interest. However, what he said is stuff that an organization would present during a high level executive meeting to the board behind closed doors. This guy said that shit to the press, which just came off as his side being weak and scared.

[rob.notenboom]

1 hour ago, Gordon said:

Regina's gonna win it anyway.

Truest thing said in 280+ pages

[Cheeta]

5 hours ago, Diamondium said:

...

My parents own a breakfast restaurant in retirement. Before they owned this restaurant, they loved all the restaurants in our small town. Now that they own their own restaurant, they view every other breakfast restaurant as inferior because it's not 'theirs', and they are the competition, and would think that way even if the other restaurants were inherently better. I mean, they made everything the way they wanted to make it, how could any other compare from their point of view?

Manning sees CPL this way. Sure, he likes Canadian soccer, but CPL isn't 'his Canadian soccer', so he doesn't view it as if it can ever compete with his own team that is built the way he wants it to be. Then adding in that he stands to lose money if a new game in town opens up, of course he's going to try to either put it down by competing or using it to develop his own team if they'll be game.

...

And that's just it isn't it?  Menu selection. 

Me?  I'll take perogies and fried kub with dill pickles and some light rye bread with butter (not marg., don't be stupid) every-single -day.  You want maybe add some fried onions and garlic?  Knock yourself out.  It's good for the heart.  

Couple of cuts of farmer's sausage?  That's nice too.

But if you want me there then its got to be on the menu.  Someplace on the menu.  

I just can't eat the corporate franchise food every single day no how well its advertised or prepared. 

[matty]

Thought: shame raptors 905 exist because a team called fc 416 would have been able to play the cool card.

Actually FC YYZ would be cooler. They could blast Rush at games.

[ted]

20 hours ago, Ansem said:

You must have misunderstood me ...

Ditto.

If you see no deceit in claiming that the CanPL is equal to MLS, even though Victor himself used the designation "1A" to indicate they would not be the same, then there is not really much point continuing the discussion.

I warned of the possible consequences, you made your case denying them. I hope it never becomes an issue.

[Macksam]

In conclusion, and this should have been said a few pages back to end this argument earlier, the CPL shouldn't advertise that it's equal to MLS. However, being equally seeded for the Voyageurs Cup is fine and not an issue. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

7 minutes ago, ted said:

If you see no deceit in claiming that the CanPL is equal to MLS, even though Victor himself used the designation "1A" to indicate they would not be the same,...

Think Victor Montagliani has even drawn a parallel with the League of Wales to further emphasize that point.

[Macksam]

@ BBTB

I'm glad you're cherry picking which of his words to use as gospel. If you refer to the original post in this thread, he also said this league will co-exist with both MLS and NASL, the latter of which you think its demise is central for the CPL starting up. 

Seriously though, Division 1A was a term that was coined in 2014 and hasn't been used since. The Welsh league comparison was just a lazy parallel used as an example of having two "top" leagues operating in a country without taking into consideration the scale of difference between those two leagues and what's being proposed here.

[grasshopper1917]

I mean at the end of the day the VAST majority of people who are going to be at the games wont care if CPL is Level 1 - Level 1A - Level 1 (Canada). The vast majority of people attending will just want to go an watch some entertaining sports action in the fresh air. 

Personally I believe at this time in North America we shouldn't even be sanctioning leagues as a specific level since there is no relegation and promotion. Giving USL and NASL both division 2 status is just a total joke and something totally subjective a few guys with suits came up with in a board room. 

If the stakeholders were really serious about expanding soccer in North America they would limit MLS to 20 teams. Allow 2 spots for relegation and promotion. Cities like Cincinnati, Indy, Sacramento and Minnesota have shown that markets can draw in second tier soccer. If I recall Montreal used to draw close to 10,000 before they entered MLS. 

They way things are going MLS is just cannibalizing other leagues. What if Hamilton sells out every game in CPL (just a hypothetical - not saying I think there is any chance of that happening) - what would be stopping MLS from taking that franchise too and start to canabolize the CPL like they are doing with the USL and NASL.

We have a very unhealthy system in North America - it is toxic for non MLS clubs. This needs to be addressed. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

52 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean at the end of the day the VAST majority of people who are going to be at the games wont care if CPL is Level 1 - Level 1A - Level 1 (Canada). The vast majority of people attending will just want to go an watch some entertaining sports action in the fresh air. 

Personally I believe at this time in North America we shouldn't even be sanctioning leagues as a specific level since there is no relegation and promotion. Giving USL and NASL both division 2 status is just a total joke and something totally subjective a few guys with suits came up with in a board room. 

If the stakeholders were really serious about expanding soccer in North America they would limit MLS to 20 teams. Allow 2 spots for relegation and promotion. Cities like Cincinnati, Indy, Sacramento and Minnesota have shown that markets can draw in second tier soccer. If I recall Montreal used to draw close to 10,000 before they entered MLS. 

They way things are going MLS is just cannibalizing other leagues. What if Hamilton sells out every game in CPL (just a hypothetical - not saying I think there is any chance of that happening) - what would be stopping MLS from taking that franchise too and start to canabolize the CPL like they are doing with the USL and NASL.

We have a very unhealthy system in North America - it is toxic for non MLS clubs. This needs to be addressed. 

preach brotha

the whole div thing is kinda ridiculous.  Steven Sandor had a great article on this recently, sorta expands on your sentiments.

with no pro/rel the idea of div1 div2 div3 doesn't really mean anything.

[Gopherbashi]

At the end of the day, we can argue until we're blue in the face about the optics of seeding teams for the VCup.

But no one's going to care about a byes or a seeding number if TFC somehow crushes Hamilton 7-0 in round one.

The on-field performance will determine peoples' perception of CPL quality vs MLS; not how they got on the field in the first place.

[matty]

Since we're still on the VCup, if you want it to be level and fair have the worst finisher from the MLS season and the last place CPL team take part in a playoff round to determine team #8 (assuming CPL is 6 teams for a while and they force out FCE and don't allow D3 in).

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean at the end of the day the VAST majority of people who are going to be at the games wont care if CPL is Level 1 - Level 1A - Level 1 (Canada). The vast majority of people attending will just want to go an watch some entertaining sports action in the fresh air. 

Personally I believe at this time in North America we shouldn't even be sanctioning leagues as a specific level since there is no relegation and promotion. Giving USL and NASL both division 2 status is just a total joke and something totally subjective a few guys with suits came up with in a board room. 

If the stakeholders were really serious about expanding soccer in North America they would limit MLS to 20 teams. Allow 2 spots for relegation and promotion. Cities like Cincinnati, Indy, Sacramento and Minnesota have shown that markets can draw in second tier soccer. If I recall Montreal used to draw close to 10,000 before they entered MLS. 

They way things are going MLS is just cannibalizing other leagues. What if Hamilton sells out every game in CPL (just a hypothetical - not saying I think there is any chance of that happening) - what would be stopping MLS from taking that franchise too and start to canabolize the CPL like they are doing with the USL and NASL.

We have a very unhealthy system in North America - it is toxic for non MLS clubs. This needs to be addressed. 

I think the division status conversation has relevance in only one real way

When people ask what the CPL is, if it's officially a tier below MLS, the easiest explaination is "minor league soccer". Very few people are keen to support minor league anything. If it's division 1, the conversation is a bit more nuanced and you let people give themselves permission to be interested. 

It's semantics, but semantics matter when you're building a narrative. People become fans of narratives and stories, not just bureaucratic decisions regarding divisions. 

In regards to the seeding of the Voyageurs cup, only the most engaged fans will really know the difference, and I think the most engaged fans will already have a more nuanced understanding/stance on CPL than "minor vs major league", so it really doesn't matter. I'd prefer equal seeding but I don't think it's a make or break issue

[Kent]

7 hours ago, Macksam said:

If you refer to the original post in this thread

There is an original post on this thread? I thought this thread had no beginning or end. You just blew my mind!

[Ansem]

12 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean at the end of the day the VAST majority of people who are going to be at the games wont care if CPL is Level 1 - Level 1A - Level 1 (Canada). The vast majority of people attending will just want to go an watch some entertaining sports action in the fresh air. 

Personally I believe at this time in North America we shouldn't even be sanctioning leagues as a specific level since there is no relegation and promotion. Giving USL and NASL both division 2 status is just a total joke and something totally subjective a few guys with suits came up with in a board room. 

If the stakeholders were really serious about expanding soccer in North America they would limit MLS to 20 teams. Allow 2 spots for relegation and promotion. Cities like Cincinnati, Indy, Sacramento and Minnesota have shown that markets can draw in second tier soccer. If I recall Montreal used to draw close to 10,000 before they entered MLS. 

They way things are going MLS is just cannibalizing other leagues. What if Hamilton sells out every game in CPL (just a hypothetical - not saying I think there is any chance of that happening) - what would be stopping MLS from taking that franchise too and start to canabolize the CPL like they are doing with the USL and NASL.

We have a very unhealthy system in North America - it is toxic for non MLS clubs. This needs to be addressed. 

It's very unlikely the CSA would sanction  anyone to go to MLS

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Last year the CSA blocked teams in Quebec from entering the new UWS league in women's soccer, because USSF sanctioning was involved. This year a team in Calgary was allowed in. You can't safely assume that the CSA's posture on issues like that will remain constant over time, because they haven't in the past. What happens, for example, if a domestic league is launched and crowds are only in the 500 to 2000 sort of range and the three MLS teams are routinely rattling five plus goals past domestic pro league teams in cup games, because most are operating at a semi-pro level in an original CSL sort of way to minimize financial losses? It's easy to push a preferred vision for what you want a new league to be when no games have been played yet, but perceptions about what is and isn't major league get shaped by what happens in reality.