Canadian Premier League

[Rheo]

Once again I think that there are people overthinking this.  I don't think the general perception is going to be brought down if the MLS teams get a hypothetical bye in the VCup.  The only people who will get upset will be the ones on here that are making an issue of it now (when it may not even be one in the first place).   As I've said the CPL will be succeed on the selling of the supporter experience.  There isn't going to be anyone other than the most hardcore soccer fan (who in reality would hold it against MLS) that is not going to go to a CPL game because the three MLS teams get a bye in the VCup.

 

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Once again I think that there are people overthinking this.  I don't think the general perception is going to be brought down if the MLS teams get a hypothetical bye in the VCup.  The only people who will get upset will be the ones on here that are making an issue of it now (when it may not even be one in the first place).   As I've said the CPL will be succeed on the selling of the supporter experience.  There isn't going to be anyone other than the most hardcore soccer fan (who in reality would hold it against MLS) that is not going to go to a CPL game because the three MLS teams get a bye in the VCup.

 

I think the CPL owners will be equally upset as the fans if not more. They will want a formula that puts their league on equal ground as MLS. Money talks and they have more influence in the CSA than those MLS clubs

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

Once again I think that there are people overthinking this.  I don't think the general perception is going to be brought down if the MLS teams get a hypothetical bye in the VCup.  The only people who will get upset will be the ones on here that are making an issue of it now (when it may not even be one in the first place).   As I've said the CPL will be succeed on the selling of the supporter experience.  There isn't going to be anyone other than the most hardcore soccer fan (who in reality would hold it against MLS) that is not going to go to a CPL game because the three MLS teams get a bye in the VCup.

Parachuting MLS teams into later rounds than CPL hurts the chances of CPL teams making it to the final or winning the tournament. I think CPL teams doing well in this tournament (whenever that happens) would help validate the league and bring more fans to the particular team that makes a breakthrough here, and possibly a bit more attention to the league as a whole.

To hurt the chances of that happening for zero reason (unless I suppose you think it's a burden on D3 teams to play in the highest level tournament they have ever played in) is senseless in my opinion. 

[Rheo]

What I'm trying to say is that potential success or failure of the league being tied to general perception of the public in comparison to MLS is being highly overrated on here in my opinion.  

We overthink everything in here because of a lack of concrete information available to us over a long period of time (286 pages and counting) and because the league is very important to us in the bubble.  To the majority of Canadians the format of the VCup in releation to the teams representing 4 different leagues (and other such issues that have been argued to death on here) won't make one bit of difference.

It's going to be things like the game/supporter culture experience, the outreach of the team to the community (the interview with the Edmonton GM on From The Black Hole pod a few weeks ago was great for this), the TV deal that are truly going to be more important (once again in my opinion)

[dyslexic nam]

I don't think anyone is saying the league will fail because of this.  Just that it will firmly canonize the idea that  CPL is inferior.  And whay would we do that.  To invert the issue - why give MLS teams a bye? 
 

Even if one accepts that the leagues might represent different tiers of footy, one of the things that makes Cup competitions special is that lower teams are given the opportunity of slaying the "giant".  Why would we limit that opportunity for fledgling CPL clubs?

[Rheo]

There's nothing wrong with the CPL being inferior.  It will be inferior for the foreseeable future.  MLS has a twenty year head start and a lot more money (making an assumption on that)   

MLS is an American league that has three Canadian teams.  CPL will be a Canadian league with Canadian teams.   It's about giving our players, coaches, officials, etc oppourtunities that they most likely wouldn't be able to have and growing the base across the country.  

As I said in my original post I personally don't care if the MLS teams get a bye in the VCup.  I just don't see it as the big deal that apparently others do.  

Agree to disagree.  Cheers

 

[matty]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

 

A-D3 group Stage

• All D3 leagues enters except the previous year champions
• Top 4 teams advance to next round

B-Knockout Stage

• NASL FC Edmonton advance to this stage
• L1O Champion advance to this stage
• PLSQ Champion advance to this stage
• 6 CPL Teams advance to this stage
• 3 MLS teams advance to this stage
• Top 4 D3 teams from previous round advance to this stage
• Draw among 16 Teams to set up the knockout stage

Example

1. Vancouver Whitecaps vs. Lakeshore SC
2. CPL Calgary vs. Edmonton FC
3. Toronto FC vs. CPL Winnipeg
4. CPL Hamilton vs. Vaughan Azzurri
5. Montreal Impact vs. Mont-Royal Outremont
6. CPL Toronto vs. FC London
7. CPL Victoria vs. Sigma FC
8. CPL Regina vs. AS Blainville

C-Quarter-Finals

• 8 Teams left

1. Vancouver Whitecaps vs. CPL Calgary
2. Toronto FC vs. CPL Hamilton
3. Montreal Impact vs. CPL Toronto
4. CPL Victoria vs. CPL Regina

D-Semi-Finals

• 4 Teams left

1. Vancouver Whitecaps vs. Toronto FC
2. CPL Toronto vs. CPL Regina

E-Finals

• 2 Teams left

1. Toronto derby: Toronto FC vs. CPL Toronto

 

That is a terrible plan that will produce a lot of bad soccer and cost a lot of money. It's also a mess

[Macksam]

25 minutes ago, Rheo said:

There's nothing wrong with the CPL being inferior.  It will be inferior for the foreseeable future.  MLS has a twenty year head start and a lot more money (making an assumption on that)   

Which is why I'm personally torn on what domestic quota, if any, should be used. Sometimes I think a heavy one (75%) like what was rumoured three years ago is the way to go and sometimes I go far as saying no domestic quota at all. I think the latter would help the CPL become somewhat comparable to MLS rather quickly, especially if filled with cheap Latin American and Caribbean talent.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, matty said:

That is a terrible plan that will produce a lot of bad soccer and cost a lot of money. It's also a mess

Seems like Canada is the only country incapable of organizing a proper domestic cup tournament

1- D3 group Stage

I got the criticism about the D3 group stage but I find it hard to believe that some of the travel costs can't be subsidized by the CSA to some capacity.

• It could be 2 groups East and West with the best 2 teams of each groups advancing to the next round which should minimize travel costs
• or if you want to eliminate the group stage for travel cost reasons then take 3 teams from each D3 leagues as followed: Champion, Runner-up, Regular Season Champion, Regular Season Runner up (tie breaker) for a total of 6 teams from D3.

2- Knockout Stage

I don't see what's wrong with a knockout stage of 16 teams. Having D3 teams in the tournament is in line with what the CSA wants to do. It's also a fantastic way to boost those D3 teams popularity locally by having MLS and CPL club play at their stadiums. D3 Clubs playing in big stadiums like BMO and BC Place is a fantastic experience and great motivator for those kids as well. As for travel costs, selling out their home games would help paying for the away match and I'm sure the CSA and potentially richer clubs could help to some capacity.

I'd like to hear your alternative

 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Which is why I'm personally torn on what domestic quota, if any, should be used. Sometimes I think a heavy one (75%) like what was rumoured three years ago is the way to go and sometimes I go far as saying no domestic quota at all. I think the latter would help the CPL become somewhat comparable to MLS rather quickly, especially if filled with cheap Latin American and Caribbean talent.

A balance of both is doable and seems to be the goal. Finding the right balance to allow for the best quality of play while making sure to develop Canadian talents at the same time.

[Macksam]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

A balance of both is doable and seems to be the goal. Finding the right balance to allow for the best quality of play while making sure to develop Canadian talents at the same time.

A balance is doable no doubt. Because the salary cap is so low, it probably won't matter too much. If it was $10 million or higher, I'd, and I'm pretty sure the owners to, would say fuck it and have no quota what so ever. Even if with a low cap, I'm leaning towards that. We will be able to identify gaps in our youth development system much better with a quota-less professional league.

[Alex D]

If MLS is trying to be the Premiership, than I hope we can try to be the Eredivise. They can blow all the cash the want on stars players while we work tirelessly away at trying to create our own. 

[lazlo_80]

4 minutes ago, Alex D said:

If MLS is trying to be the Premiership, than I hope we can try to be the Eredivise. They can blow all the cash the want on stars players while we work tirelessly away at trying to create our own. 

I have often thought of the Eredivisie Bundesliga relationship as a wishful parallel. The Eredevisie doesn't have the population or money to compete toe to toe with the Bundesliga but Holland competes with Germany on the world level (excluding last euros)

[Rintaran]

42 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Seems like Canada is the only country incapable of organizing a proper domestic cup tournament

1- D3 group Stage

 

• or if you want to eliminate the group stage for travel cost reasons then take 3 teams from each D3 leagues as followed: Champion, Runner-up, Regular Season Champion, Regular Season Runner up (tie breaker) for a total of 6 teams from D3.

 

This doesn't work. Although L1O has two conferences & play-offs, PLSQ is single-table no-playoff. From the technical release for BCRT3, it looks likely to follow the PLSQ route over the L1O route.

The one thing all 3 leagues do have in common is a league cup. Since starting 2018 (the same potential year as CPL) we will have 3 D3 leagues, I would suggest: League Champion & Cup Champion (or runner up if same). This has the benefit of providing two routes for the D3-teams to get into the V-cup.

It is interesting to note that so far BCRT3 does not appear to be interested in competing in the Interprovincial Cup, so using that as a qualifier will automatically discount the new league.

[Macksam]

19 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

I have often thought of the Eredivisie Bundesliga relationship as a wishful parallel. The Eredevisie doesn't have the population or money to compete toe to toe with the Bundesliga but Holland competes with Germany on the world level (excluding last euros)

I have no doubt the CPL will reach its max potential, which will end up giving us a very competitive league (think top half of Eredivisie) with enticing player salaries down the road. When that happens obviously is the unknown but I imagine sometime during my life. On the other hand, MLS reaching it's max potential? While it's tantalizing to think about and I'm sure the CPL will force MLS owners to give it's league a shot of much needed adrenaline, it's really up in the air how far that league will grow.

[ted]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

That's not the point. If you want CPL to be successful in Canada, you can't afford sending that message.

And as I have been saying for what, four years now, the CanPL cannot be built on deception or delusion.

Any owner or sponsor being told right now that CanPL will be, "as good" or the, "same level", as MLS will either know right away they are being sold a bill of goods or will be angry later when they find out that it just isn't so.

Any credible journalist covering the league will know from day one that CanPL is not at the same level as MLS on or off the field. If someone from the league tires to blow smoke up their ass they will immediately have a negative opinion of that person and their employer.

Better to just take whatever perceived hit you believe comes from seeding teams than have the reputation of a liar. Just look at the attendance figure discussion in this thread. One single report of false figures by a team and the whole league will be called out for being liars. The numbers will stop being reported, or worse, reported accurately with snide comments about false numbers.

I agree that perception is important. Being seen as "below" MLS is less harmful than being seen as delusional or deceitful.

[Complete Homer]

Haven't listened to it yet, but Jeff Paulus, Jamie Umbach, and TSN personality Marc Majeu talked about CPL on FC Edmonton's official podcast Rabbit Radio

https://m.soundcloud.com/darren-erin/rabbit-radio-episode-21

I know Paulus has been vocal of his support of CPL, but if it's a bunch of "wouldn't it be great if FC Edmonton was in CPL", that's a pretty interesting take to be promoted on FC Edmonton's own podcast/twitter account

Edit: Eh not bad. They pumped the tires of a potential CPL, though they are behind Fath as he's adamant that NASL is their league 

[theaub]

15 minutes ago, ted said:

Better to just take whatever perceived hit you believe comes from seeding teams than have the reputation of a liar. Just look at the attendance figure discussion in this thread. One single report of false figures by a team and the whole league will be called out for being liars. The numbers will stop being reported, or worse, reported accurately with snide comments about false numbers.

Hoping the hyperlink works here, but this story about attendance in the early MLS days is a prime example of what happens when you publicly guarantee certain attendance numbers.  Any marketing for this league based on either attendance numbers or the quality of play will be very risky and could doom it if it doesn't come to fruition (unless we have a guy who will take on 7 teams like Anschultz did when MLS was basically dead).

(on a side note, this is a good book)

[Diamondium]

9 minutes ago, ted said:

And as I have been saying for what, four years now, the CanPL cannot be built on deception or delusion.

Any owner or sponsor being told right now that CanPL will be, "as good" or the, "same level", as MLS will either know right away they are being sold a bill of goods or will be angry later when they find out that it just isn't so.

Any credible journalist covering the league will know from day one that CanPL is not at the same level as MLS on or off the field. If someone from the league tires to blow smoke up their ass they will immediately have a negative opinion of that person and their employer.

Better to just take whatever perceived hit you believe comes from seeding teams than have the reputation of a liar. Just look at the attendance figure discussion in this thread. One single report of false figures by a team and the whole league will be called out for being liars. The numbers will stop being reported, or worse, reported accurately with snide comments about false numbers.

I agree that perception is important. Being seen as "below" MLS is less harmful than being seen as delusional or deceitful.

I think there is a middle ground here. Nobody is saying to lie and say CPL is as good as the MLS. I think we all know that telling a sponsor that they're on the same level is blatant lying and immoral. It's just that they shouldn't be advertising the fact that they're worse. 

As long as CPL doesn't go and directly compare themselves to MLS, people won't be too surprised with what they're getting. Just go present your league as the top domestic league in Canada, because that's what it is.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

18 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Haven't listened to it yet, but Jeff Paulus, Jamie Umbach, and TSN personality Marc Majeu talked about CPL on FC Edmonton's official podcast Rabbit Radio

https://m.soundcloud.com/darren-erin/rabbit-radio-episode-21

I know Paulus has been vocal of his support of CPL, but if it's a bunch of "wouldn't it be great if FC Edmonton was in CPL", that's a pretty interesting take to be promoted on FC Edmonton's own podcast/twitter account

"the announcement coming pretty quick, that canada will be getting it's own professional league"

not sure which one said that, but that seems pretty definitive.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

"I have heard from someone pretty deeply involved that the date they are aiming for is 2018 but if it gets pushed back to 2019, so be it, as long as it's done right"

pretty much echos the sense we've got from beirne so far but works for me.

theres a bit more around 30 minutes or so.

[Diamondium]

8 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

"I have heard from someone pretty deeply involved that the date they are aiming for is 2018 but if it gets pushed back to 2019, so be it, as long as it's done right"

pretty much echos the sense we've got from beirne so far but works for me.

I would have no issue with it being 2019 as well. With something as long term as a sports league, 1 year is absolutely nothing if it helps ensure a sustainable plan is in place.

[matty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Seems like Canada is the only country incapable of organizing a proper domestic cup tournament

1- D3 group Stage

I got the criticism about the D3 group stage but I find it hard to believe that some of the travel costs can't be subsidized by the CSA to some capacity.

• It could be 2 groups East and West with the best 2 teams of each groups advancing to the next round which should minimize travel costs
• or if you want to eliminate the group stage for travel cost reasons then take 3 teams from each D3 leagues as followed: Champion, Runner-up, Regular Season Champion, Regular Season Runner up (tie breaker) for a total of 6 teams from D3.

2- Knockout Stage

I don't see what's wrong with a knockout stage of 16 teams. Having D3 teams in the tournament is in line with what the CSA wants to do. It's also a fantastic way to boost those D3 teams popularity locally by having MLS and CPL club play at their stadiums. D3 Clubs playing in big stadiums like BMO and BC Place is a fantastic experience and great motivator for those kids as well. As for travel costs, selling out their home games would help paying for the away match and I'm sure the CSA and potentially richer clubs could help to some capacity.

I'd like to hear your alternative

 

Alternative if i need to use all the cpl teams is like so

2019 vcup

Weak cpl team playoff

5th vs 6th 

Quarter finals (random draw)

3 mls

Top 4 cpl

Cpl playoff winner

Semis have another random draw

All are home and away series

Keeps the d3 teams from going broke and forces fce and offc to join the cpl in order to take part. Not perfect but once expansion happens everything gets evened out.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, matty said:

That is a terrible plan that will produce a lot of bad soccer and cost a lot of money. It's also a mess

How is it a mess? All pro teams and D3 champions are in the tournament proper. Remaining D3 teams go through qualifying to see which teams make it to the tourney. It's pretty simple.

[matty]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

How is it a mess? All pro teams and D3 champions are in the tournament proper. Remaining D3 teams go through qualifying to see which teams make it to the tourney. It's pretty simple.

The group stage makes this cup a mess. Also travel costs and stadium needs