CSA vs Government/Parliament of Canada

[theaub]

32 minutes ago, SF said:

I will note, however, that Hockey Canada sponsors piled on while their crisis was unfolding. It remains to be seen if that will happen to the CSA.

Would be pretty rich for sponsors to pile on the CSA here when every piece of empirical evidence about CSA sponsorship revenue in the past 10 years indicates that those sponsors certainly weren't giving money based on the success of the women's team from 2012-2020.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

If the question should come up (assuming a hearing even happens), a simple enough answer should present itself even for politicians to understand. FIFA historically has expected a domestic league to be in place for men's World Cup hosts, whereas they have not for Women's World Cup, as we should know given that we hosted one solo in 2015. Hence the creation of a domestic men's league was prioritized first. If I'm the CSA, that would be the explanation I'd stick to, along with pointing out that they have subsidized some women to play in the NWSL in the interim - although there are other factors involved, that should be straightforward enough. The politicians probably don't know about any of this because their knowledge is essentially coming solely from Rick Westhead articles and tweets, who is not likely to mention the NSWL stuff even if he knows about it.

Rick Westhead did no follow up article, not one, about the men's deal in Qatar. I doubt he even watched, but that is beside the point. There is a conflict related to player bonuses, and friend-family packages, so you report on it--then ignore it for a few months at the critical time when you could create a story. 

Was he muzzled? Maybe he accepts being muzzled by his bosses.

Anyways, he still hasn't done that story, which is entirely relevant, because the FIFA payment is going to make it to the CSA in a month or so, from what I read. 

 

[SpursFlu]

What does the CSA have to do with Hockey Canada? Did someone get raped?

Pass the Kool aid around kids

[red card]

Rather than CSB or no women's league, CSA could be more exposed in terms of the Own the Podium funding. Since these monies can only be used for the women's teams, the question that can be asked if the rest of CSA's expenditures were still split 50/50.

In typical orgs, pooling monies and then allocating it efficiently would be the norm. But the women players appear to be asking if their securing of OTP funding resulted in a reduction of CSA generated funding for them.

The 2018 to 2021 financials show largely similar % funding for both teams ex 2021. But 2021 can be explained that was it due to a large slate of WCQ/Gold Cup/Olympic Qualifying matches across the region with added costs of covid compliance and having a base outside of Canada for the first rounds of WCQ. The lack of clarity is around how much of the women's expenses were funded by OTP.

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, Ruffian said:

Ozzie is drooling over these developments potentially hurting the CPL so much that they have to stop operating and making it seem like he was correct the whole time.

Maybe shouldn't take the bait but it truly is pathetic how some people on here can't grasp the difference between somebody predicting something will happen and them wanting it to happen.

Back around 2018 I was genuinely mystified by how "Canadian SUM" was supposed to work because it never crossed my mind that Victor Montagliani would effectively hand over future CSA revenue potential to the extent he appears to have done.

He wasn't going to be the one left handling the backlash though I guess. Nikos B was going to be the patsy for that.

[WheatsheafSK]

I feel like I am the minority here to say that a little Parliamentary scrutiny is not a bad thing.  First off, the media has been riff with stories of sports associations being run by old boys clubs and this has led to abuse (even criminal charges), financial and administrative irregularities.  This forum has been filled with comments on how the CSA conducts itself.  

Secondly, this would be chance for the CSA to present its own story.  These hearings allow witness to first make statements before being asked questions.  Politicians are not looking at gotcha clips or scoring political points at these hearings when they are questioning non-governmental people.  If the CSA cannot stand up to a little cross-examination, they have problems. 

I also do not think that anything coming out of the parliamentary committee hearing would last more than a day in the news.  Basically there are two threads here: gender inequality and the CSA being secretive about its budgets and financial commitments.  These are not issues that will seize the national media attention for long.

Finally, all the comparisons to Hockey Canada are way off and should not even be connected here.  Hockey Canada denied members of national hockey teams had been sexually assaulting women for decades Even when Hockey Canada was paying out hush money from secret funds.  Not only did they refuse to resign and take ownership, they then went before the Parliament committee and scored a series of own goals.  Let's be clear, no one is accusing soccer players of participating in criminal acts here.  In fact, the CMNT and CWNT are in sync on this one.  This is a totally different situation from Hockey Canada.

Edited February 14, 2023 by WheatsheafSK

[Obinna]

40 minutes ago, red card said:

In typical orgs, pooling monies and then allocating it efficiently would be the norm. But the women players appear to be asking if their securing of OTP funding resulted in a reduction of CSA generated funding for them.

Don't know the details of OTP, but just wanted to point out how this really highlights the difficulties of achieving "equity".

Say the women ARE getting a reduced CSA budget because of OTP - that's obviously not equitable. However, since the men are not getting OTP money, wouldn't you have to give the men more to make sure both teams have access to the same number of resources?

Both sides would have good arguments for why the situation is/isn't equitable, no?

Wouldn't that result in one side being unhappy, no matter the resolution? And who has the final say? Who breaks the deadlock? Couldn't the tiebreaker just be portrayed as biased by the losing side, especially when things aren't clear cut (like this)?

Equity aims for idealistic solution with no wiggle room (it's either equitable, or it isn't), but the real world is often too complex and nuanced for idealistic solutions. That's why in many cases the solutions are not sensible, let alone optimal. 

Certainly, there is nothing "optimal" about the current situation with Canada Soccer. I know the CSA problem is much more than a "pay gap" thing (the big scale problem is transparency, period), but the pay equity dimension makes it very difficult, to say the least. 

If we eventually find resolution on the pay equity issue, but Canadian Soccer as a whole gets dragged through the mud in the process, there will be a smaller pie to be evenly split at the end of the day. That's one of my concerns.

[JamboAl]

21 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

I feel like I am the minority here to say that a little Parliamentary scrutiny is not a bad thing.  First off, the media has been riff with stories of sports associations being run by old boys clubs and this has led to abuse (even criminal charges), financial and administrative irregularities.  This forum has been filled with comments on how the CSA conducts itself.  

Secondly, this would be chance for the CSA to present its own story.  These hearings allow witness to first make statements before being asked questions.  Politicians are not looking at gotcha clips or scoring political points at these hearings when they are questioning non-governmental people.  If the CSA cannot stand up to a little cross-examination, they have problems. 

I also do not think that anything coming out of the parliamentary committee hearing would last more than a day in the news.  Basically there are two threads here: gender inequality and the CSA being secretive about its budgets and financial commitments.  These are not issues that will seize the national media attention for long.

Finally, all the comparisons to Hockey Canada are way off and should not even be connected here.  Hockey Canada denied members of national hockey teams had been sexually assaulting women for decades Even when Hockey Canada was paying out hush money from secret funds.  Not only did they refuse to resign and take ownership, they then went before the Parliament committee and scored a series of own goals.  Let's be clear, no one is accusing soccer players of participating in criminal acts here.  In fact, the CMNT and CWNT are in sync on this one.  This is a totally different situation from Hockey Canada.

I don’t think you’re in the minority at all.  There’s a lot of conjecture but not a lot of facts so far.

[Obinna]

26 minutes ago, WheatsheafSK said:

I feel like I am the minority here to say that a little Parliamentary scrutiny is not a bad thing.  First off, the media has been riff with stories of sports associations being run by old boys clubs and this has led to abuse (even criminal charges), financial and administrative irregularities.  This forum has been filled with comments on how the CSA conducts itself.  

Secondly, this would be chance for the CSA to present its own story.  These hearings allow witness to first make statements before being asked questions.  Politicians are not looking at gotcha clips or scoring political points at these hearings when they are questioning non-governmental people.  If the CSA cannot stand up to a little cross-examination, they have problems. 

I also do not think that anything coming out of the parliamentary committee hearing would last more than a day in the news.  Basically there are two threads here: gender inequality and the CSA being secretive about its budgets and financial commitments.  These are not issues that will seize the national media attention for long.

Finally, all the comparisons to Hockey Canada are way off and should not even be connected here.  Hockey Canada denied members of national hockey teams had been sexually assaulting women for decades Even when Hockey Canada was paying out hush money from secret funds.  Not only did they refuse to resign and take ownership, they then went before the Parliament committee and scored a series of own goals.  Let's be clear, no one is accusing soccer players of participating in criminal acts here.  In fact, the CMNT and CWNT are in sync on this one.  This is a totally different situation from Hockey Canada.

This is a very good post. A lot of great points made. Definitely gives me a better feeling about what's going on.

I will say this, though. The CMNT and CWNT appear to be in sync in spirit, which is obviously massive. However, from what I can tell, both teams want access to the same resources, yet neither team wants their resources to be cut? Isn't that unrealistic on their part, or is it just me?

As time goes on, this is starting to feel more and more like both sets of players wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The CSA by their accounts at least claim to be cash strapped, so unless we uncover some sort of "waste" in the budget to satisfy both teams, I don't see what the solution is.

Maybe the extra money will just magically fall out of the Ottawa sky? Maybe Tiff Macklem can help them with that? Ring him up...he'll make it rain!

Edited February 14, 2023 by Obinna

[WheatsheafSK]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I will say this, though. The CMNT and CWNT appear to be in sync in spirit, which is obviously massive. However, from what I can tell, both teams want access to the same resources, yet neither team wants their resources to be cut? Isn't that unrealistic on their part, or is it just me?

As time goes on, this is starting to feel more and more like both sets of players wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The CSA by their accounts at least claim to be cash strapped, so unless we uncover some sort of "waste" in the budget to satisfy both teams, I don't see what the solution is.

Maybe the extra money will just magically fall out of the Ottawa sky? Maybe Tiff Macklem can help them with that? Ring him up...he'll make it rain!

This is a valid concern.  Between the media blitz Noonan is doing and past stories about the CSA finances, I suspect the money has been spent.  I feel like we need a Swiss Rambler level deep dive to understand better what their numbers are. All of the commitments the CSA has made, including their long term deal with the CSB, may be valid - it is just hard to know without the details.  As a result, we are all left wondering why there is no money left for the players, particularly the women.  

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

The French Football Federation is getting audited it would seem:

https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2023/02/14/audit-a-la-fff-avant-la-remise-du-rapport-definitif-la-riposte-du-camp-le-graet_6161817_3242.html

Edited February 14, 2023 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[SpursFlu]

It's truly sad how we've always elevated mens soccer in this country above womens soccer. To the point that for my entire life when I tried to talk someone about Canadian men's soccer I was immediately told that people don't care and why waste my breath because they're terrible but the women on the other hand are incredible 

[narduch]

6 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

What does the CSA have to do with Hockey Canada? Did someone get raped?

Well ya. That actually did happen....

[The Beaver 2.0]

2 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

The French Football Federation is getting audited it would seem:

https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2023/02/14/audit-a-la-fff-avant-la-remise-du-rapport-definitif-la-riposte-du-camp-le-graet_6161817_3242.html

The freakin' French took the CSA's money?!  On Valentine's Day? Figures...

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

It's truly sad how we've always elevated mens soccer in this country above womens soccer. To the point that for my entire life when I tried to talk someone about Canadian men's soccer I was immediately told that people don't care and why waste my breath because they're terrible but the women on the other hand are incredible 

I know you say this with a comedic slant, but it's absolutely true.

For my entire life I experienced it as well. I am willing to bet most of the longtime supporters did as well. Of course, anyone who said that to me were speaking factually, because the men did suck, and the women were great (and still are), but it was painful to hear nonetheless, at least for me.

Any person I had THAT conversation with gave me a "no hope so don't bother" vibe and that was the painful part.

However, that made it all the sweeter once we did finally qualify! That's why it took me a little bit to come around to the new fans who didn't bother during the bad times, but I accepted them eventually

More to your point though, yes indeed, until very, very recently, the men have been the ones treated as being a lesser priority, if not from the CSA than from the general public. That's why a part of me cringes now that things have (supposedly) reversed - I say supposedly because the women haven't lost their status necessarily, they are now sharing the spotlight for the first time. 

I see where the women are coming from, however, because they watched their coach basically ditch them overnight for a "bigger" challenge that was the men's team. That was a huge shock, and I don't blame them for feeling like the rug got pulled from out under them. In a way that kind of set the tone for everything we are seeing now. 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Obinna

[SpursFlu]

And draw a line to everyones favorite conversation, compensation. In all the years Canadian men have had such a gravy train when it comes to the sport.. who got paid what? Where are all the millionaires living the dream? All those guys who got rich off soccer and had all those opportunities while the women toiled away in obscurity. If the show was on the other foot none of this would even be a topic. We would all be celebrating and working together because Canadians men and women and in my opinion even more importantly, FANS both men and women are finally getting opportunities in Canada around best sport in the fucking world soccer. If people would just work together and elevate each other instead of being miserable selfish unrealistic pricks we could all get to a much better place TOGETHER 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[TFC07]

…

Edited February 15, 2023 by TFC07
Posted in a wrong thread

[SpursFlu]

But the men are complaining too. What amounts to Canada soccers 1% are crying poor and acting hard done by. And last year those knuckheads sabotaged their biggest opportunity to create revenue coming out of covid. They blew up their own pipeline? Now they want to kick sand in the face of the 99% of Canadian soccer people trying to fight and claw their way to the table and act like people are hiding money from them

What an absolute joke

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[SF]

This would almost certainly be very bad for the CSA

For the record, this is the (very impressive) woman who ended Marcel Aubut's career at the Canadian Olympic Committee (link at the bottom). Not trying to conflate the two issues, but to say she would be a credible witness (and, it would seem, informed and hostile) would be a massive understatement. 

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/exclusive-leanne-nicolle-goes-public-with-marcel-aubut-harassment-allegations-1.3635204

 

[VinceA]

Don't know if it has been talked about already but as soon as the government gets involved properly, we're screwed right? FIFA will shut down the federation immediately, right?

[Kent]

9 hours ago, VinceA said:

Don't know if it has been talked about already but as soon as the government gets involved properly, we're screwed right? FIFA will shut down the federation immediately, right?

I saw someone mention in here somewhere that whoever got the boot as a result of the government would have to complain to FIFA first. Something like that anyways. I have no idea if that is accurate or not.

[Vasi]

Not sure they can shut it down if sexual assault is in play as per the tweet. 

Fifa is shit...but not sure they are that shitty. Plus this is a WC host. This will be interesting. 

[DoyleG]

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by DoyleG

[scooterlawrence5]

FIFA Suspends Pakistan and Chad in 2021
https://www.reuters.com/article/soccer-fifa-idUSKBN2BU11Q

FIFA Suspends Zimbabwe and Kenya in 2022
https://www.voanews.com/a/fifa-suspends-zimbabwe-kenya-for-government-interference/6459189.html

FIFA specifically prohibits any form of government intervention in football on a national basis.  FIFA suspensions are handed down after governments push aside associations' leaders. While suspended, member associations will not receive any funding from FIFA, and their football teams will not be allowed to play in any matches organized by FIFA or their respective confederation.

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]