CPL General

[Blackjack15]

https://nationalpost.com/sports/soccer/will-london-build-a-downtown-sports-stadium-its-a-possibility/wcm/67473924-d5b6-4700-a537-cbc6f89957e6

From the article:

FC London’s founder and chief operating officer, Ian Campbell, says he had discussions with the league last year but the financial numbers didn’t work out.

“There was the franchise fee, which is in the millions. Then there was the expectation that there would be money lost in the first few years,” Campbell said. “I also think that the travel expenses are going to be really steep. It’s expensive going to places like Victoria.”

 

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, Blackjack15 said:

https://nationalpost.com/sports/soccer/will-london-build-a-downtown-sports-stadium-its-a-possibility/wcm/67473924-d5b6-4700-a537-cbc6f89957e6

From the article:

FC London’s founder and chief operating officer, Ian Campbell, says he had discussions with the league last year but the financial numbers didn’t work out.

“There was the franchise fee, which is in the millions. Then there was the expectation that there would be money lost in the first few years,” Campbell said. “I also think that the travel expenses are going to be really steep. It’s expensive going to places like Victoria.”

 

So If I understand correctly, the league will be looking for another owner for London

[Fullback]

21 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So If I understand correctly, the league will be looking for another owner for London

I would think so. Later in the article Campbell says if there is a stadium that would change things but I think with his mindset I would rather they go a different direction. 

London is also having its first supporters group meeting Thursday. I wish the guys luck in trying to build something

Edited August 14, 2018 by Fullback

[Ansem]

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Historically Labbatt Park was the downtown sports stadium also used for Canadian football and to a much lesser extent soccer, if baseball could be persuaded to share it again. An obvious problem with that parking lot location is what it does on parking for the London Knights.

[Watchmen]

People might not like it, but it's at least interesting that potential owners have come out and said "the numbers for this don't work" for this city.

[Complete Homer]

6 hours ago, Watchmen said:

People might not like it, but it's at least interesting that potential owners have come out and said "the numbers for this don't work" for this city.

His primary concern from the quote is up front costs and lead time to profitability. Seems much closer to "the numbers don't work for me" than "the numbers don't work for London"

Same story as when the TSS guys came out to say the numbers were out of reach, potential owners need to be in a wealth bracket where riding out the inevitable years of losses is relatively easy. I'm glad CPL reached out but I don't think anyone expected FC London to make the jump in its current form

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 hours ago, Watchmen said:

People might not like it, but it's at least interesting that potential owners have come out and said "the numbers for this don't work" for this city.

Think this article is designed to get a Mississauga style fan movement going, because what he is saying is that a city funded stadium would change the landscape on what`s potentially viable. As in Mississauga that won`t happen quickly, so it also provides time to see if the league actually does work elsewhere, which is not a given for anybody that knows the history of pro soccer in Canada.

From what I remember of old newspaper articles, he was keen on a move to a relatively low budget USL regional D3 format from PDL back around 2010 before the moratorium was imposed by the CSA (the favoured stadium location at that point was JP II High School at Highbury and Oxford), but was not so keen on a CSA sanctioned D2 when the Easton Report was being compiled, due to similar concerns about the greater scale of expenses involved in a coast-to-coast format.

[Ansem]

 

Anywhere in Canada?

• Mostly willing to go everywhere if the money is right although the preference is to go to a team in their home province
• Some would be willing to join the MLS teams to come back
• Halifax would need to pay extra for some players to join

Travel

• Travel isn't an issue as long sufficient time is given prior to the game to prepare, recuperate

 

Money

Europe

• Minimum would have to be $40K + Accommodations. Willing to compromise to go back home
• $35-45K is fair
• No less than 5k a month or for 8 months that would be $40K

US-Based

• No less than $75K and would need to file paperwork to not lose the green card
• Upwards the average of 40K and 60K

 

Contracts

Unanimously

• Contract MUST be guaranteed to leave USL and Europe

Europe

• Guaranteed Contracts + bonus for appearance and wins.
• Expects 2 years deal or 1+1 option
• No waivers or pre-season cuts once the contract is signed

MLS-Based

• Should be like MLS, thinks more experienced guys will have the ability to opt-in or opt-out.

USL Based

• A advantage CPL possess is Universal Healthcare. The player was livid to know that USL does not offer medical insurance for players which are very high

Concerns

Training facilities, physios and doctors

Level of play

Salary cap being to low

Direction of the league (older guys vs young guys & competitiveness + quality vs investment)

Perception that a Canadian player is giving up on an international career by going home and playing in a new circuit.

Fear of losing work status in the United States

Fear that once the European door is closed, it can’t be opened again.

[ted]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Concerns

[1] Training facilities, physios and doctors

[2] Level of play

[3] Salary cap being to low

[4] Direction of the league (older guys vs young guys & competitiveness + quality vs investment)

[5] Perception that a Canadian player is giving up on an international career by going home and playing in a new circuit.

[6] Fear of losing work status in the United States

[7] Fear that once the European door is closed, it can’t be opened again.

1. Canada has excellent training and medical facilities and staff. Athletes from around the world have come to receive treatment from some of the best in the wold, right here in Canada.  I see no reason why the standard for these things would not be high given the need to develop and care for young players for our league and to "sell".

2. Level of play is a big leap of faith and will be determined by the players who make the leap. Sort of a "chicken vs egg" argument. If the best players come, we get a higher level of play. 

3. The salary cap will also affect the above. I think they have to set it realistically vis a vis budget/business concerns. 

4. See above

5. That makes no sense. Herdman wants this league and will be choosing players from this league who will have more chances to impress as he will scout this league far more than any other.

6. If you can work in the States now, why would a couple of years in the CanPL be any concern?

7. "Europe" doesn't give a toss where you play. You don't get one shot and you are done with all teams in Europe.

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 minutes ago, ted said:

1. Canada has excellent training and medical facilities and staff. Athletes from around the world have come to receive treatment from some of the best in the wold, right here in Canada.  I see no reason why the standard for these things would not be high given the need to develop and care for young players for our league and to "sell".

2. Level of play is a big leap of faith and will be determined by the players who make the leap. Sort of a "chicken vs egg" argument. If the best players come, we get a higher level of play. 

3. The salary cap will also affect the above. I think they have to set it realistically vis a vis budget/business concerns. 

4. See above

5. That makes no sense. Herdman wants this league and will be choosing players from this league who will have more chances to impress as he will scout this league far more than any other.

6. If you can work in the States now, why would a couple of years in the CanPL be any concern?

7. "Europe" doesn't give a toss where you play. You don't get one shot and you are done with all teams in Europe.

Ted is right on all counts, I was also surprised by some of the stuff there.

Like, hey, I am giving up on my green card, what a sacrifice, you have to pay me more. I don't think so.

Like hey, I am giving up on Europe to help my poor relatives back home,  I need special conditions. Think not.

Anywhere any player goes, they are speculating, and looking at a set of conditions.

The only thing that for me makes sense is that contracts should be guaranteed, that trading should be limited (or the player should have a right to decline), that contracts should cover a full year not ten months (so as to not leave players without things like medical or permits in the offseason). 

The only real problem with setting out clear conditions for clubs to fulfil with players comes when a team has 6/7 injuries and has to sign more guys to get the roster back in order, and then you may allow for short-term or provisional contracts, or maybe allow for PDL, USL or even an MLS guy with no minutes to come in on loan.

[Ansem]

A salary cap of $1.5M doesn't make sense to me and seems too low for what the league has claimed so far to be and try to accomplish right of the bat.

Regardless of being a pro league, it's still a business and since the number of $5M dollars was implied in past articles, most businesses spends between 20% to 50% on salaries.

$1.5M would be around 30% of operating costs.

This is where it will say a lot about what the league's trying to do when we're told the final salary cap figure for 2019.

• If you're looking to make profits or already making it, 30% on salaries (aware that this doesn't include non-players staff) is where you want to be. Most of us knows it's the unlikely scenario at launch. (making profits)

• If you want to break even, around 50% is usually what happens. In a scenario where your staff is essential to grow your sales/business (players) like in the service business, the norm is usually 50% of operating costs. Even in government, where they are expected to break even, salaries usually represent close to half the expenses. So we'd be talking $2.5M on overall salaries with players expected to have the lion share of the pie.

• If you're willing and/or losing money to grow your business, than your marketing expenses will be higher but the salary percentage will be high as well since it has a direct correlation with the potential long medium to long term return on investment. If you put mediocre quality on the pitch, it will be harder to see results and usually, the majority of new businesses are losing money before making a positive return. If we use 60%, that gives us a salary of $3M for all staff.

It will be interesting to see where the league goes on this. We know Pacific FC doesn't want to spend above $1M and it's safe to assume that clubs like Hamilton would be looking on the other end of the spectrum. 

• I think the league must have a financial structure allowing owners the flexibility to spend what they want within reason. If Forge wants to spend $3M, then a $2.5M Cap + luxury fee that goes into a "revenue sharing pool" like the NHL is doing, makes sense to allow Hamilton to go after their ambitions of winning a V Cup and the league while helping out a team like Pacific that could potentially barely break even.

• I also think that you can't allow a team like Pacific to spend less than $1M dollars on players. The league needs a minimum salary cap of ~$1M. (I guess we know who isn't winning the cup ?)

• Or the league could go right down the middle and impose a fix $2M hard cap

Rob Gale had said that they could potentially build teams capable of rivaling MLS teams in the V Cup. (Of course assuming that the CSA imposes further demands on Canadian content for the 2019 tournament.) With what Euro and US based players said, you can't do that with just a $1.5M salary.  Salary & level of play are important, so paying them the money they say would make them leave Europe or the US isn't enough if the league & owners aren't willing to follow through with investments that will put the league at a quality of play acceptable for them to jump ship. I don't think $1.5M is enough to achieve all that. That would mean that they are trying to make money or ensure to break even at the expense of the level of play.

50% of expenses on all salaries or between $2M to $2.5M makes WAY more sense and you go up from there. If loses are huge, you can increase the cap based on inflation. Freezing or lowering the cap sends a very negative message. If teams breaks even, exceeds expectations and the league wants to see progress on the pitch yearly, you have to increase the cap according to your results and your needs.

The 2019 Canadian Championship is the CPL coming out. Although MLS teams will still be favorites, HOW you lose DOES matter. MLS teams will bring everything they got to not only win the cup but to make a point that not only are they in a better league, they will want to demonstrate that CPL aren't even remotely close to their level. That is something I don't think the league wants to see happening and quite frankly, they can't afford to get destroyed for the whole country to see. The league will be satisfied if people say:

• Good game, even in defeat, they competed and brought it to MLS teams! Despite losing, CPL would have gain the respect somewhat legitimized their D1 status.

Rather than:

• It was one sided, Huge gap in quality... Clearly a minor league!

Will a $1.5M hard cap achieve the better outcome? I doubt it

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ansem

[mpg_29]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Ted is right on all counts, I was also surprised by some of the stuff there.

Like, hey, I am giving up on my green card, what a sacrifice, you have to pay me more. I don't think so.

Like hey, I am giving up on Europe to help my poor relatives back home,  I need special conditions. Think not.

Anywhere any player goes, they are speculating, and looking at a set of conditions.

The only thing that for me makes sense is that contracts should be guaranteed, that trading should be limited (or the player should have a right to decline), that contracts should cover a full year not ten months (so as to not leave players without things like medical or permits in the offseason). 

The only real problem with setting out clear conditions for clubs to fulfil with players comes when a team has 6/7 injuries and has to sign more guys to get the roster back in order, and then you may allow for short-term or provisional contracts, or maybe allow for PDL, USL or even an MLS guy with no minutes to come in on loan.

I'm not sure what players were surveyed but it sounds like players that are already somewhat stable at the professional level and have options. I see CPL as league for a lot of Canadian players that don't have many options to play professionally...at least initially.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I'm not sure what players were surveyed but it sounds like players that are already somewhat stable at the professional level and have options. I see CPL as league for a lot of Canadian players that don't have many options to play professionally...at least initially.

They are clearly targeting the talent "out there" in Rob Gale's words, which (in his own words), could allow them to build MLS level squads (in a V Cup environment and if the CSA increases the Can content next year)

To achieve that, you need the Canadians in Europe and in the US that are in Sandor's article. And you need to add good internationals to elevate the team. I just don't buy you can do it on a $1.5M hard cap. He obviously know details about the financial structure that made him say that.

[Gian-Luca]

I think this comment is the biggest concern in the article:

“I’m very concerned about how late they’re leaving this. I’m sitting here and want to get started already. I’m waiting on hold for something to happen. University seasons are already starting. A lot of European teams have already started, so players can’t leave things right now.”

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I think this comment is the biggest concern in the article:

“I’m very concerned about how late they’re leaving this. I’m sitting here and want to get started already. I’m waiting on hold for something to happen. University seasons are already starting. A lot of European teams have already started, so players can’t leave things right now.”

It is true that CPL begins in the middle of a European season, only players released from contract, or those in the summer leagues in Scandinavia, would be free to sign for a CPL club in, say, January/February.

[Complete Homer]

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Regardless of being a pro league, it's still a business and since the number of $5M dollars was implied in past articles,

Source? Closest and most recent I can recall is Clanachan's comment that teams will be risking 3-4 million, which would be consistent with a 1-1.5 million cap

I agree that it would be nice to have some flexibility for top spenders, but I don't think the north American market would tolerate anything more than the cap ceiling being any higher than double the cap floor. We aren't acclimatized to lopsided leagues

[Complete Homer]

14 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I think this comment is the biggest concern in the article:

“I’m very concerned about how late they’re leaving this. I’m sitting here and want to get started already. I’m waiting on hold for something to happen. University seasons are already starting. A lot of European teams have already started, so players can’t leave things right now.”

Possible that that individual was not identified as a potential target

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ryan_Brandt/status/1027579193725476864

 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Source? Closest and most recent I can recall is Clanachan's comment that teams will be risking 3-4 million, which would be consistent with a 1-1.5 million cap

I agree that it would be nice to have some flexibility for top spenders, but I don't think the north American market would tolerate anything more than the cap ceiling being any higher than double the cap floor. We aren't acclimatized to lopsided leagues

I thought it was 5 but let's say "3-4", is that average, minimum or maximum? We don't know.

I think $2M with luxury tax makes sense with a floor cap of $1M

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Complete Homer said:

Possible that that individual was not identified as a potential target

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ryan_Brandt/status/1027579193725476864

 

Even if guys are on contracts, they can still be acquired at the next transfer window.

[lazlo_80]

1 hour ago, ted said:

 

6. If you can work in the States now, why would a couple of years in the CanPL be any concern?

 

Just to shed a little light on this one. As a person working with a green card, if I don't live in the US for at least 6 months of the year I lose my green card, which was a huge pain in the butt to get in the first place and has now become even harder to get with Trump in power. This is a pretty legit concern.

[Zem]

23 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I agree that it would be nice to have some flexibility for top spenders, but I don't think the north American market would tolerate anything more than the cap ceiling being any higher than double the cap floor. We aren't acclimatized to lopsided leagues

Oh please. We need to stop with the "North American fans won't watch anything that doesn't resemble the NHL" nonsense. Soccer fans in Canada primarily watch leagues in Europe that don't have caps at all, and North American sports fans seem to "tolerate" the NBA and MLB extremely well for people who supposedly don't like lopsided leagues without salary caps.

A higher cap is better for the players and would allow successful clubs to sign higher profile players and improve the quality and perception of the league.

[Blackjack15]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It is true that CPL begins in the middle of a European season, only players released from contract, or those in the summer leagues in Scandinavia, would be free to sign for a CPL club in, say, January/February.

That will be interesting to see how it pans out

as opposed to most of the USL based players finish season in October/November and the majority have a 1 year contract or club option 

I hope Canadians playing in mid to low European leagues talk to their clubs to release them to pursue “opportunities elsewhere” 

otherwise many will be coming in mid-season in June and July which will alter  roster decisions

[LAK]

2 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

Just to shed a little light on this one. As a person working with a green card, if I don't live in the US for at least 6 months of the year I lose my green card, which was a huge pain in the butt to get in the first place and has now become even harder to get with Trump in power. This is a pretty legit concern.

I have a three year work permit which is a little different, but I noticed no difference getting it this time compared to the last 5 I've gotten dating back to 2003. Three different presidents but nothing has changed. I also hear the same sentiment about Trump about crossing the border, but it is exactly as has been previous. I think that's just media hype to be honest.

Sorry off topic...

Definitely a legitimate concern with the green card as your primary residency has to be in the United States to maintain it.

[Bison44]

And if you do have green card problems, they can make you leave country and go through the process again.  After working/living for several years in USA had to move back to canada for over a year after green card problems.  He was very lucky the company still wanted to keep him on after all the BS, these things are serious and you cant just move back and forth and not expect to have problems.