CPL new teams speculation

[Copes]

8 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Pet peeve of mine.   

Have advocated and will advocate until the end of time about how travel related expences should be a league responsibility.  Collectivley borne by the the members of the league equally.  Same as officiating.  Same as financing HQ. 

We're going to see a concentration of teams in the major population centers in BC and Ontario.  I don't see how things could evolve any differently in this league.  Doesn't mean that the necessary critical mass needed to substain the league doesn't require clubs in the urban islands out in the "hinterlands".   Halifax, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, whereever. And legitimacy as a national league requires that.

If you're going to have a league whose bylaws regulate the franchises staffing costs, in part in the name of financial fair-play, how can you have a league where certain teams travel expences are by a multiple greater than others? 

I don't think the dispariities between the teams is too great right now but a future CPL with 4 or 5 Ontario teams in the near future isn't wild fantasy.  Or further expansion in BC.  Which would be wonderful but when considering travel expences teams in certain locations may be forced to be trading a greater portion of the player budget for travel budget than their rivals.  And that isn't in the best interests of a league which wants to promote a fair competitive playing field.   

Just my opinion.        

 

Couldn't agree more. A league sponsorship with an airline and an annual fee from all clubs that collectively covers league travel seems pretty reasonable for a country as broad as ours. 

[m-g-williams]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Maybe, and that's not inconceivable.  But I definitely read "League One Canada" being the umbrella organization in much the same way that the "CHL" is the umbrella for Major Junior hockey - L1BC, L1O, and PLSQ = WHL, OHL, and QMJHL.

That's exactly what it is. League 1 Canada is L1BC, L1O and PLSQ working together to be more than the sum of their parts; it's not a separate league. 

I know I've said this before, but given the current state of football in Canada - existing infrastructure, travel costs, etc. - I think having League 1 Canada act as our Second Division while keeping the CPL as a closed-system First Division is the right way to go. As I understand it, this is pretty well exactly what Australia has done with the A-Leagues and the National Premier Leagues. It provides a path for player development, offers meaningful matches/tournaments (including eligibility for participation in the Canadian Championship), while not setting up Second Division clubs to fail with stadium, travel and salary expenses they realistically couldn't manage if they were promoted. 

NOTE: I know that Australia *is* working toward re-vamping how the National Premier Leagues work, and that there've been some rumblings about instituting pro-rel with the A-Leagues. But as I think most of us can agree that Australia is a bit more advanced with their football pyramid, the fact that they're only seriously considering this now seems to be confirmation that we shouldn't try to dive in with pro-rel in the near future. We need to walk before we can run. 

[P-O]

Québec City or Laval could have a full roster with the players released by the Impact today.

[Ftduck]

2 hours ago, Copes said:

Couldn't agree more. A league sponsorship with an airline and an annual fee from all clubs that collectively covers league travel seems pretty reasonable for a country as broad as ours. 

I just assumed there was some sort of profit sharing already in place for travel expenses. If not it's got to be an advantage for Ontario teams no?

[Ansem]

11 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Maybe, and that's not inconceivable.  But I definitely read "League One Canada" being the umbrella organization in much the same way that the "CHL" is the umbrella for Major Junior hockey - L1BC, L1O, and PLSQ = WHL, OHL, and QMJHL.

He's not entirely wrong by saying that they have created "A" second division, doesn't mean that it is "THE" second division and I haven't seen plans to sanction it as such either.

As CPL salary goes up, the quality will as well and the gap with D3 will increase which will further expose the need for an in-between level.

Until the league officially says that it will no longer consider pro/rel which it has consistently said that it wanted to do, we have to assume that they are still on board with it

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

Until the league officially says that it will no longer consider pro/rel which it has consistently said that it wanted to do, we have to assume that they are still on board with it

I don't think the league will ever say it. They'll just quietly move on and hope no one cares. And if asked, they'll just perpetually say "it's still something we're looking at" just to satisfy the people who really want it.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think the league will ever say it. They'll just quietly move on and hope no one cares. And if asked, they'll just perpetually say "it's still something we're looking at" just to satisfy the people who really want it.

It's "Pro/Rel" not a conspiracy theory - that's nothing to be so secretive or deceptive over. Canadians are used to a none-pro/rel environment. If they come to a point where they realistically can't make it work, it wouldn't be the end of the world for them to say so.

[Watchmen]

27 minutes ago, Ansem said:

It's "Pro/Rel" not a conspiracy theory - that's nothing to be so secretive or deceptive over. Canadians are used to a none-pro/rel environment. If they come to a point where they realistically can't make it work, it wouldn't be the end of the world for them to say so.

I have seen the endless pages of this forum discussing pro/rel, and there's people who would be mad. Not "I'm abandoning the CPL" mad, but would definitely be upset by it. So no, it's not a conspiracy. But I think they think it's just business to always technically have that option available even if they have no intention of doing it.

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I have seen the endless pages of this forum discussing pro/rel, and there's people who would be mad. Not "I'm abandoning the CPL" mad, but would definitely be upset by it. So no, it's not a conspiracy. But I think they think it's just business to always technically have that option available even if they have no intention of doing it.

I don't think we matter as much some people think to their business. If we are enough to hurt their business than they truly won't make it and I'll owe Parrot an expensive bottle of whisky.

Media, casuals - all the non hardcores like us don't care if CPL is pro/rel or not

[Watchmen]

39 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Media, casuals - all the non hardcores like us don't care if CPL is pro/rel or not

Agreed.

40 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't think we matter as much some people think to their business.

It's difficult to quantify, for sure. But there's a reason they said it in the first place: because they knew a lot  of people on here wanted to hear it.

44 minutes ago, Ansem said:

 I'll owe Parrot an expensive bottle of whiskey.

Let's not go overboard here. 😉

[Kingston]

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

I don't think we matter as much some people think to their business. If we are enough to hurt their business than they truly won't make it and I'll owe Parrot an expensive bottle of whisky.

Media, casuals - all the non hardcores like us don't care if CPL is pro/rel or not

I'd go farther and say that a lot of people who are more hardcore and post here also don't really care if the CPL is pro/rel or not.

Secondly, what do I have to do to get an expensive bottle of whisky?

[Shway]

I don’t care for pro/rel as much as I care about the 3 American league based clubs joining our D1 league. I think it would be a crazy game changer for the entire landscape of the league- entertainment, and development value. 

There’s things we can learn from MLS to avoid, and things to pull from…the same can be said about  European leagues.

[Kingston]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

I don’t care for pro/rel as much as I care about the 3 American league based clubs joining our D1 league. I think it would be a crazy game changer for the entire landscape of the league- entertainment, and development value. 

When you say this bolded part, what exactly does that look like when you envision it?  Not the mechanism to (presumably force) them to move, but what those teams and fan bases look like in the CPL.

[EnigMattic1]

21 minutes ago, Kingston said:

When you say this bolded part, what exactly does that look like when you envision it?  Not the mechanism to (presumably force) them to move, but what those teams and fan bases look like in the CPL.

Doesn't the MLS own the rights to the Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal franchises (along with the rest of the teams in the league)?

[Shway]

10 minutes ago, Kingston said:

When you say this bolded part, what exactly does that look like when you envision it?  Not the mechanism to (presumably force) them to move, but what those teams and fan bases look like in the CPL.

Well lets say its 2027 and that when this happens...

The CPL salary floor would have risen to at least 3M based on recent trends.
The incentive would be that the MLS teams would be allowed to have salary flexibility. (Well I guess Forge could join them aswell). The teams would continue to look the way they do now, it just the Canadian players would get a lot more minutes. At the moment there's a massive budget gap, but I can't say there's a massive talent gap, and I think at some point the CPL will introduce a marquee or designated player that would help with the merge.

The fan bases I don't believe will be effected. I don't think they are so embedded into the MLS (most don't even know the rules) that they would notice the difference other than Gareth Bale not coming to Montreal. Considering Montreal and Vancouver have had fan bases that have existed long before the MLS I don't think it will have the negative effect people like to think. There's Eurosnob, is Americansnob a thing? I hope not. I think people overhype the Toronto vs insert big American city. Those opportunities would continue to come in the expanded CCL which would provide greater opportunities for the bigger clubs (TFC, MTL, WFC) to continue to be on the continental stage vs having to compete for essentially 1 guaranteed spot (VC Champion).

[toontownman]

3 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Doesn't the MLS own the rights to the Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal franchises (along with the rest of the teams in the league)?

Yes. Unless there was an incredible gesture of goodwill from Garber and the MLS they would retain the franchise (names?). They could move the franchises somewhere else or seek other owners. That said I don't know where the CSA can intercede on that front, if they have a leg to stand on or whether it would be a concacaf/fifa issue.

Until the CPL operates on a similar financial and playing standard footing its not worth trying imo. We absolutely have the best of both worlds and extra pathways and experiences for Canadians. I like the rivalry that is growing.

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Doesn't the MLS own the rights to the Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal franchises (along with the rest of the teams in the league)?

Yes, they would essentially have to sell their franchise rights to whatever American owner wanting to put a team in many deserving markets. All of the teams would make a massive profit.

However MLS would still own rights to their intellectual property/brands, so each club would have to do a rebrand of some sort.

If those clubs were willing to make this move, they could have an agreement with Canada Soccer that no team from MLS could come into their market. 

[Shway]

1 minute ago, toontownman said:

Yes. Unless there was an incredible gesture of goodwill from Garber and the MLS they would retain the franchise (names?). They could move the franchises somewhere else or seek other owners. That said I don't know where the CSA can intercede on that front, if they have a leg to stand on or whether it would be a concacaf/fifa issue.

Until the CPL operates on a similar financial and playing standard footing its not worth trying imo. We absolutely have the best of both worlds and extra pathways and experiences for Canadians. I like the rivalry that is growing.

I see this mentioned a lot. We have the best of both worlds, but we will now be missing out heavily on the continental game, and will essentially have our "lesser" clubs waving the flag for us. 

The financial playing field is based on the American game. I don't think every club needs to be on the fake parity game that MLS likes to play. (As you can see TFC team salary is stupid high)

I just think the "rivalry" isn't real until its real. Kinda like the Caps rivalry with Seattle and Portland. 

[RJB]

34 minutes ago, Shway said:

I just think the "rivalry" isn't real until its real. Kinda like the Caps rivalry with Seattle and Portland. 

You can't manufacture a rivalry.  NHL tries to do this, MLS tries to force it, but rivalries develop naturally.

[Shway]

5 minutes ago, RJB said:

You can't manufacture a rivalry.  NHL tries to do this, MLS tries to force it, but rivalries develop naturally.

and NHL saw high viewership when what....the Canadians teams were playing each other consistently.  

[toontownman]

48 minutes ago, Shway said:

I see this mentioned a lot. We have the best of both worlds, but we will now be missing out heavily on the continental game, and will essentially have our "lesser" clubs waving the flag for us. 

The financial playing field is based on the American game. I don't think every club needs to be on the fake parity game that MLS likes to play. (As you can see TFC team salary is stupid high)

I just think the "rivalry" isn't real until its real. Kinda like the Caps rivalry with Seattle and Portland. 

I'm not convinced on missing out. But I might be misinterpreting what you meant. As of this year 4 Canadian teams could qualify for the CL. Next year the Canadian MLS clubs can potentially qualify through the league and the V cup and CPL has two slots (plus v cup). We would lose one of those spots imo.

The facitilites, stadiums and attendance, access to staffing, youth development and experience playing against top professional footballers is still far ahead of what the CPL will be able to offer in the foreseeable future. It's a different learning environment than the CPL.

I'm all for bringing them in when it's viable and comparable both financially and playing standards wise. I agree the CPL doesn't need to be as crazy as the MLS wages wise but it's also going to be too big a gap for at least another decade I think, it benefits our players development having that extra path, extra CL spot and more exposure. That said, who knows maybe this World Cup and the next could ignite a fire under Canadians and see a significant rise in fans and corporate sponsors.

Edited November 16, 2022 by toontownman

[SoccMan]

Keep dreaming this MLS Canadian team will only happen once the Raptors the Jays and the Canadian NHL teams move to an all Canadian league also . We are all ok with our other sports team playing in US leagues but for some reason but not for soccer . It took like forever to get pro soccer teams to be somewhat successful in drawing crowds bigger than just family and friends playing at Centennial stadium in Toronto for example , now let’s just explode everything and bring it back to what we had before the MLS in Canada . No MLS in Canada no 2022 Canada in World Cup actually no investors wanting to invest in the CPL.  The two can coexist just fine moreover we have the Canadian Championship where teams can play each other. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it be careful what you wish for sometimes . It’s taken a long time to get soccer where it is in this country and now is no time for making crazy decisions.

[Kingston]

39 minutes ago, Shway said:

Well lets say its 2027 and that when this happens...

The CPL salary floor would have risen to at least 3M based on recent trends.

The cap went up by 18% this year.  Even if you believe that enormous increase is sustainable year after year, it is still only $2.3 million by 2027.

41 minutes ago, Shway said:

The incentive would be that the MLS teams would be allowed to have salary flexibility. (Well I guess Forge could join them aswell). The teams would continue to look the way they do now, it just the Canadian players would get a lot more minutes.

That's a lot of flexibility.  Last year (with Insigne not fully counting) TFC spent $27 million, Montreal $6.6 million, and Vancouver $5.4 million.  TFC clearly overspends but last year represents a low point for both the other teams.  In 2021 Montreal was $12.3 million and Vancouver $8.6 million.  I expect Montreal and Vancouver to rise again in 2023.  All this to say that you'd have three teams spending on average triple or quadruple what everyone else spends.  I'm not sure that would work for the league.  Our fans expect their team to win.  Not every year, but some years.  We don't have the European tradition of supporting teams that will never hoist a trophy.

53 minutes ago, Shway said:

At the moment there's a massive budget gap, but I can't say there's a massive talent gap,

There is, though.  The all time record in the Canadian Championship 11-2-2 in favour of MLS.  And those are in matches where the CPL team is way up for the game and the MLS team may drift down their line up a bit.  I don't see that getting better in a week in-week out season schedule.  I see three teams having clinched playoff spots by mid-season and everyone else battling for fourth.

51 minutes ago, Shway said:

The fan bases I don't believe will be effected. I don't think they are so embedded into the MLS (most don't even know the rules) that they would notice the difference other than Gareth Bale not coming to Montreal. Considering Montreal and Vancouver have had fan bases that have existed long before the MLS I don't think it will have the negative effect people like to think. There's Eurosnob, is Americansnob a thing? I hope not. I think people overhype the Toronto vs insert big American city. 

Without meaning offence, I think that is naively optimistic.  Montreal and Vancouver would see large drops (I'd estimate at least half) while TFC would be lucky to hit 5000, especially if they also had to rebrand.

To summarize, I don't see any version of this where the MLS teams slide over to the CPL and retain what they are.  We wouldn't be getting three massive teams in the CPL, we'd be lawn mowing our three biggest club teams.

54 minutes ago, Shway said:

I see this mentioned a lot. We have the best of both worlds, but we will now be missing out heavily on the continental game, and will essentially have our "lesser" clubs waving the flag for us. 

That could be easily rectified by the CSA right now if it was desired.  Just switch the three allocations to the Canadian Championship winner, the CPL champion, and the best Canadian MLS team.  Really it just means reallocating one spot.

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Keep dreaming this MLS Canadian team will only happen once the Raptors the Jays and the Canadian NHL teams move to an all Canadian league also .

Different ball game. With this notion, I feel like all these Toronto teams (albiet the NHL) need to change their name to Canada Blue Jays, Canada Raptors since they represent the nation and no other province can have a team in these leagues.

3 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

We are all ok with our other sports team playing in US leagues but for some reason but not for soccer . It took like forever to get pro soccer teams to be somewhat successful in drawing crowds bigger than just family and friends playing at Centennial stadium in Toronto for example , now let’s just explode everything and bring it back to what we had before the MLS in Canada . No MLS in Canada no 2022 Canada in World Cup actually no investors wanting to invest in the CPL.  The two can coexist just fine moreover we have the Canadian Championship where teams can play each other. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it be careful what you wish for sometimes . It’s taken a long time to get soccer where it is in this country and now is no time for making crazy decisions.

We are all "ok" with these teams playing in the league because its all we know. We don't have the option too know better, or support our own product. That's the American control on the Canadian market but reality is we are the ones consistently producing the talent. It took 30 years for us to return to the World cup, coincidently it came in parallel with substantial investors and our very own professional league after 20+ years. 

No one is talking about exploding anything, I think thats the wrong words to use, but hey I get you gotta exaggerate your point.

The two can coexist but at what cost? You can't foresee it now, but I can just in simple regards to how many Canadians are playing in the continental game (CCL). That makes a massive difference in development when have to go play in certain countries for qualifying for one example. 

Oh yea and co-existing in the Canadian Championship isn't really a thing.....there's what 4 games played between CPL vs MLS? One off determines the measuring stick?....

[Shway]

Based on the link above, the first and many iterations of this tournament will see 2 CPL teams in the league, and 1 MLS team. Not one MLS team will be built or is ready to win the SS, MLS Cup, or Leagues Cup.