CPL new teams speculation

[SoccMan]

1 minute ago, Shway said:

Different ball game. With this notion, I feel like all these Toronto teams (albiet the NHL) need to change their name to Canada Blue Jays, Canada Raptors since they represent the nation and no other province can have a team in these leagues.

We are all "ok" with these teams playing in the league because its all we know. We don't have the option too know better, or support our own product. That's the American control on the Canadian market but reality is we are the ones consistently producing the talent. It took 30 years for us to return to the World cup, coincidently it came in parallel with substantial investors and our very own professional league after 20+ years. 

No one is talking about exploding anything, I think thats the wrong words to use, but hey I get you gotta exaggerate your point.

The two can coexist but at what cost? You can't foresee it now, but I can just in simple regards to how many Canadians are playing in the continental game (CCL). That makes a massive difference in development when have to go play in certain countries for qualifying for one example. 

Oh yea and co-existing in the Canadian Championship isn't really a thing.....there's what 4 games played between CPL vs MLS? One off determines the measuring stick?....

I lived through the years of CPL level crowds in Toronto and teams folding from year to year , don’t want to go back to that sorry. You want to know the last time in Toronto they were getting crowds of over 10000 a game ? You got it was when the Toronto Blizzard where playing in the  old NASL a North American League . Once the league folded  in 1984 Toronto pro soccer teams that came after that were lucky to draws 3000 people and a few all Canadian leagues were tried before TFC in 2007 but nobody went. It was only with the MLS coming to town where crowds of over 20000 where a normal game day average . Actually no one believed it would work because of all the failures after the NASL folded in 1984. Put TFC in the CPL and they better move to Centennial stadium and back to the 1990’s and early 2000’s we go .

[Ansem]

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Edited November 16, 2022 by Ansem

[RJB]

18 minutes ago, Shway said:

Based on the link above, the first and many iterations of this tournament will see 2 CPL teams in the league, and 1 MLS team. Not one MLS team will be built or is ready to win the SS, MLS Cup, or Leagues Cup.

Here's hoping it's three CPL teams, and no MLS teams representing Canada.  I say that in the hopes that the three Canadian based MLS clubs qualify via their own domestic league and competitions.  Imagine a scenario where there is six Canadian based teams in the Champions League!??  It's a little bit unthinkable, but quite possible.  

[Kingston]

27 minutes ago, Shway said:

It took 30 years for us to return to the World cup, coincidently it came in parallel with substantial investors and our very own professional league after 20+ years. 

It is literally co-incidental, though.  Meaning one had nothing to do with the other.

27 minutes ago, Shway said:

The two can coexist but at what cost? You can't foresee it now, but I can just in simple regards to how many Canadians are playing in the continental game (CCL). That makes a massive difference in development when have to go play in certain countries for qualifying for one example. 

The two can co-exist, but at what benefit?  I love that we have the CPL.  It is great that so many players, especially young ones, have entry-level professional playing opportunities.  It is super that the first CPL alumni are starting to show up in higher level leagues and even the national team.

And, in addition to that, we have three bigger budget teams playing locally at a higher level where some of the most promising new players can step it up and current national team members can find challenging playing environments.

To me, the best of both worlds we have now is far more valuable than trying to squeeze the three bigger teams into the smaller confines of the CPL.

[Shway]

Just now, RJB said:

Here's hoping it's three CPL teams, and no MLS teams representing Canada.  I say that in the hopes that the three Canadian based MLS clubs qualify via their own domestic league and competitions.  Imagine a scenario where there is six Canadian based teams in the Champions League!??  It's a little bit unthinkable, but quite possible.  

Lol this is possible, but the odds are 1000000000 to 1 on that happening.

Its more likely that there will be just CPL teams representing. Especially next year with everything that will be going on. 

Anyways I’ve derailed this thread.

I hope any new expansions clubs have adequate stadia. That should be the first requirement before the money.

 

[EnigMattic1]

Ok, hypothetically, Fath doesn't find a buyer and FC Edmonton fold. An earlier post by @Cblake mentioned a stadium in Fort McMurray. Should a team be ran out of that stadium, what would you call it? I mean, I think we have already established that the name "FC Edmonton" is out of the question as Fath holds the rights.

[RJB]

1 minute ago, Shway said:

Lol this is possible, but the odds are 1000000000 to 1 on that happening.

Its more likely that there will be just CPL teams representing. Especially next year with everything that will be going on. 

Anyways I’ve derailed this thread.

I hope any new expansions clubs have adequate stadia. That should be the first requirement before the money.

 

lol, ya, I certainly got off topic.  I dare to dream... I'm a Canada fan after all.  

[SpursFlu]

When did this 27 team Champions League thing come about?

[Shway]

3 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

When did this 27 team Champions League thing come about?

Comes into play in 2024, was launched in 2021? Reason for the death of the Concacaf League.
Just take it in, and realize how Canadian clubs will be screwed.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Shway

[Ansem]

To add to this convo

This quote from Rob Friend on the recent article about Canadian Soccer as a whole stood out for me in regards to CBS's relationship with the CSA

 

Interesting choice of words in bold

 

So how the Premier League is structured is the founding members, the founding clubs, which were seven of us, and now we brought in Atletico Ottawa as a founding member. We all own the league together and have our percentage of the Canadian Premier League.

We’re all on the board of the Canadian Premier League and the Canadian Soccer Business, which controls the commercial interest in Canadian soccer. So we’re heavily involved on the board, make big decisions in the league, and make big decisions at the national team level.

So it would be like the Austrian Bundesliga owning the Austrian Football Federation as one business together. The founding members own it and control it together. And, of course, the national team’s success creates more interest and value in commercial and broadcast, which allows us to reinvest in the infrastructure and grow our league.

 

So if you remove your fan hat and put on your business hat for a second:

• CSB can unilaterally activate the extra 10 years option on their deal with the CSA (up until 2039) which would also increase the amount they would pay to the CSA as per their deal

• The waiver preventing the 3 MLS clubs from re-applying for a sanction allowing them to play in MLS has an expiry date and they currently would not meet the exemption clauses under FIFA Statute has they previously did when CPL didn't exist (See Fury case)

• CPL controlling all the Canadian markets would have a significant impact on their revenues via : media rights (which would boost the value of the next deal) / sponsors / merchandise / media exposure / attendance & merchandise etc...

• The CSA now realizing that it gave way too much upfront to CSB are drooling for a bigger piece of the pie than the $3M they are entitled to. (While I understand the current deal until 2029 - I'm actually shocked they gave the right to CSB to trigger the option for an extra 10 years unilaterally)

• CSB could offer to re-open the deal and give the CSA more money but let's not forget that we're dealing with successful businessman who wants a return on their investments - they will want something in return

• That something would be the CSA support to fully enforce FIFA statute and work with CONCACAF to end MLS operations in Canada.

Honestly, why would CSB do the CSA any favours if it continues a status quo that works against its long term interest on the domestic business side? This is a serious negotiation that needs to take place in my opinion.

At the very least, this discussion is sure to happen.

Lastly, looking at hard numbers, who's writing cheques to the CSA? MLS & the 3 clubs  who profited from being granted sanctioned and allowed to operate in some of North America's biggest/most lucrative markets or CSB?

At the core of the issue, the CSA trapped themselves in this deal and are starving for cash - do they have the luxury to refuse some of CSB's asks?

That's how business works

 

[Kingston]

35 minutes ago, Ansem said:

• CSB can unilaterally activate the extra 10 years option on their deal with the CSA (up until 2039) which would also increase the amount they would pay to the CSA as per their deal

• The waiver preventing the 3 MLS clubs from re-applying for a sanction allowing them to play in MLS has an expiry date and they currently would not meet the exemption clauses under FIFA Statute has they previously did when CPL didn't exist (See Fury case)

I can't read the article because I don't have an account.

Are these points covered specifically in the article?  If not, do you have links for them?  I've heard different things said on these topics but never seen any actual references.

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I can't read the article because I don't have an account.

Are these points covered specifically in the article?  If not, do you have links for them?  I've heard different things said on these topics but never seen any actual references.

They aren't in the article, only Rob Friend's quote in Italics is

 

[Pottsy3]

1 hour ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Ok, hypothetically, Fath doesn't find a buyer and FC Edmonton fold. An earlier post by @Cblake mentioned a stadium in Fort McMurray. Should a team be ran out of that stadium, what would you call it? I mean, I think we have already established that the name "FC Edmonton" is out of the question as Fath holds the rights.

While the stadium is relatively new and definitely a good size for the CPL, I don't think we'd see a Fort McMurray team simply due to location. 

Fort McMurray is about 4 hours from Edmonton by car. It does however look like their are regular flights from Toronto, Edmonton and Calgary. The municipality of WB has a population just over 70,000 people. To achieve 5000 attendees, that's like 1 in every 14 person living within an hour's radius. 

 

The city has minor league sports teams playing out of the same complex. The local baseball team averaged ~ 700 attendees in recent seasons, and from any indication I could find it seems like the local football team drew even less.

[BurndenAce]

34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They aren't in the article, only Rob Friend's quote in Italics is

 

So if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, if CSA wants a higher cashflow in future negotiations, CSB can pressure them into preventing the Canadian MLS teams from playing in the MLS. Is that about right?

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

and NHL saw high viewership when what....the Canadians teams were playing each other consistently.  

That happens now, when they don't play each other constantly.  But i think the viewership on that All North division dwindled as the season went on and the novelty wore off.

[Ansem]

57 minutes ago, BurndenAce said:

So if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, if CSA wants a higher cashflow in future negotiations, CSB can pressure them into preventing the Canadian MLS teams from playing in the MLS. Is that about right?

If Montagliani is still president at that point, I believe he'll be more than happy to take that initiative.

In the meantime, CSB definitely have the leverage to get some compliance from the CSA to support their goal of having all Canadian markets free from American competition and work with CONCACAF  once the waiver expires.

Pure economics, that's a "win-win" for both parties in the eventuality that CSB could give a much higher annual payout to the CSA if they know they'll make even more money on the CPL side and increase the value of their assets.

Quote from the article

• And with the growth of football in Canada, it’s an exciting investment. You’ve probably seen how the MLS clubs’ values went from $10 million to $500 million, LAFC even worth $ 800 million. We’re not going to be at that level, but there’s a growth opportunity and investments.

No competition from MLS facilitate that. The party with the leverage always uses it to further its interest in any business relationships and that's exactly what the CSB/CSA partnership is.

Unless the CSA comes up with new revenue streams, something they failed at quite spectacularly for decades, this is as good as it will get for them for the next 2 decades. Any world cup/FIFA prize money will be gobbled up by the players (fully deserves) leaving them with crumbs to fund their programs and grow as an organization.

CSB being willing to give more money would come at a price, can't think of a bigger price than ensuring that CPL has no domestic competitors.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

So it would be like the Austrian Bundesliga owning the Austrian Football Federation as one business together.

He didn't really make that totally erroneous comparison did he? 

Does Friend think he, as part owner of CSB, is an owner of the CSA?

These guys need to have someone put them clearly in their place, imo.

Maybe the way the CSA pushes CSB to make a better deal for Canadian soccer is to not work in their interests and use that as a pressure point.

[Ansem]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So it would be like the Austrian Bundesliga owning the Austrian Football Federation as one business together.

He didn't really make that totally erroneous comparison did he? 

Does Friend think he, as part owner of CSB, is an owner of the CSA?

These guys need to have someone put them clearly in their place, imo.

Maybe the way the CSA pushes CSB to make a better deal for Canadian soccer is to not work in their interests and use that as a pressure point.

In a sense - one could say that CSB "owned" CSA at the negotiating table and it's quite obvious who has the leverage in this relationship.

It would be more productive to find ways to benefit more from it than do what you proposed...

looking like this

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ansem

[Shway]

Thanks @Ansem.

I forgot that I’ve failed to mention that the direct say of the Canadian clubs playing in MLS is solely on the CSA.

The fact that the CSB control the CSA now, makes things verrryyy interesting.

Its all about them being sustainable right now to show those clubs “look times up”.

People like to compare NHL, or NBA, MLB but they aren’t part of a governing body. They make their own decisions, and what we could see is that the decisions are made for TFC, Whitecaps, Montreal at some point. 
 

Funny thing is I’ve heard Montagliani make mention of this before, just didn’t think it was something that could really be invoked. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Shway

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

Comes into play in 2024, was launched in 2021? Reason for the death of the Concacaf League.
Just take it in, and realize how Canadian clubs will be screwed.

Yah i thought it was a different structure then that. K thanks

[Shway]

20 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So it would be like the Austrian Bundesliga owning the Austrian Football Federation as one business together.

He didn't really make that totally erroneous comparison did he? 

Does Friend think he, as part owner of CSB, is an owner of the CSA?

These guys need to have someone put them clearly in their place, imo.

Maybe the way the CSA pushes CSB to make a better deal for Canadian soccer is to not work in their interests and use that as a pressure point.

The reality is the CSB brokered a deal that says they run the CSA.

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Shway said:

Thanks @Ansem.

I forgot that I’ve failed to mention that the direct say of the Canadian clubs playing in MLS is solely on the CSA.

The fact that the CSB control the CSA now, makes things verrryyy interesting.

Its all about them being sustainable right now to show those clubs “look times up”.

People like to compare NHL, or NBA, MLB but they aren’t part of a governing body. They make their own decisions, and what we could see is that the decisions are made for TFC, Whitecaps, Montreal at some point. 

Actually it's a 4-way deal between CSA/CONCACAF/USSF/FIFA. If at any point one of the 4 wants to end it or not continue with it, then it would be over.

With the Fury, the CSA was onboard (publicly) but CONCACAF was the one pulling the plug.

You are also correct to say that the CSA could unilaterally end this at any time

[Shway]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Actually it's a 4-way deal between CSA/CONCACAF/USSF/FIFA. If at any point one of the 4 wants to end it or not continue with it, then it would be over.

With the Fury, the CSA was onboard (publicly) but CONCACAF was the one pulling the plug.

You are also correct to say that the CSA could unilaterally end this at any time

Do you know when the exemption/sanction agreement ends or needs to be renewed?

USSF might be the only one to say yes. 
Concacaf has been wanting Canada only.
Fifa will go with what the powers say below.
CSA has to do the wishes of the CSB. 

This could get interesting. 

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Shway said:

The reality is the CSB brokered a deal that says they run the CSA.

Facts!

The deal made the CSA glorified managers while CSB runs the game on the business side while holding all the money

In the scene below - who truly has the power?

That's "power 101"

[Kingston]

2 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

So if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, if CSA wants a higher cashflow in future negotiations, CSB can pressure them into preventing the Canadian MLS teams from playing in the MLS. Is that about right?

They could certainly try and, as Ansem pointed out, they might have a reason to try.

The weak spot in this line of logic is that it assumes that forcing the MLS teams into the CPL will greatly increase the value/revenue/fan support of the CPL.  It basically means you believe that the MLS teams will just sort of slide over with their spending and fan bases intact.

If you believe, as I do, that the reality would be more like reducing the MLS teams to the equivalent of current CPL teams, then the motivation is far less.

The CSA does want money and could potentially consider an MLS to CPL move if the CSB pushed for it.  They also represent Canadian soccer in it's entirety, however.  So they aren't going to push this if the reality is that the extra money would amount to peanuts at the cost of destroying the home clubs of half our national team.