CPL new teams speculation

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, phil03 said:

Montreal doesn't really have a Hamilton or Victoria equivalent and I do feel it is worth looking at the CHL here: there is a long history of attempt at making clubs work in the Montreal area who failed one after another (I know, not a perfect parallel but still instructive). The most likely result of trying MTL is another York United.

Reacting to the part in bold - "Ya think"?

Being from there, respectfully - you don't know what you're talking about.

As for your earlier response, club soccer in this country is still more "niche" that you're willing to admit.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Kingston]

14 hours ago, phil03 said:

Basically its Quebec city but I figured that if they get a team their official name would be in French so Club de Football Québec instead of Quebec Football Club. My bad, I should have precised it

EDIT: IMO Sherbrooke would be the best option for a second Quebec club and there might be an argument for it over London.

No, I mean I only count 13 teams on your list of your top 14 markets.

[Kingston]

11 hours ago, Ansem said:

1. From CONCACAF perspective, you really believe that they don't want more clubs & leagues in the "Tier 1" bracket?

2.Hypothetically, let's pretend that CPL succeeds at rising to "Tier 1" bracket in a decade, you still believe that regionally  three clubs are better than an extra 12 to 16 clubs in that Tier?

This may be the crux of our disagreement on this topic.

Yes, CONCACAF would love more tier 1 leagues.  And, yes, 12 or 16 clubs at that level would be better than three.  If the CPL was the approximate equivalent of MLS, then moving the Canadian clubs would at least be worth discussing.

Is the CPL there?  Clearly not.

Will the CPL be a tier 1 league (meaning close to LMX/MLS) in a decade?  No chance.  Remember, LMX/MLS are continuing to advance as well.  We won't be comparing CPL 2032 to MLS 2022.

Will the CPL ever catch those leagues?  It may close the gap a bit eventually but I doubt if the CPL will ever catch the top two even if it does manage to leave all the other CONCACAF leagues behind.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

This may be the crux of our disagreement on this topic.

Yes, CONCACAF would love more tier 1 leagues.  And, yes, 12 or 16 clubs at that level would be better than three.  If the CPL was the approximate equivalent of MLS, then moving the Canadian clubs would at least be worth discussing.

Is the CPL there?  Clearly not.

Will the CPL be a tier 1 league (meaning close to LMX/MLS) in a decade?  No chance.  Remember, LMX/MLS are continuing to advance as well.  We won't be comparing CPL 2032 to MLS 2022.

Will the CPL ever catch those leagues?  It may close the gap a bit eventually but I doubt if the CPL will ever catch the top two even if it does manage to leave all the other CONCACAF leagues behind.

I'll never understand MLS being the "measuring stick" for everything. Only MLS can close the gap with a superior league such as Liga MX but CPL (having all of Canada) could never do it?*

*Close the gap doesn't mean "surpass"

Is Ligue 1 as strong as La Liga or EPL? No but they are part of the "Top 5". Heck you can even use Liga Portugal if you want. It isn't about Liga Portugal or Ligue 1 being like EPL but they are in the same tier. Will they catch up EPL or La Liga? Probably never but that's not the point - is it?

Who can argue that those leagues haven't done great for their national teams and their respective regions despite being lower than EPL or La Liga? Why do you think so many opposed the Super League as proposed by those clubs? Had they had their way (which would never happen anyways) could have jeopardized those leagues and cause damages to the ways both associations and confederation run things.

Don't get me wrong, I'm over the moon that we're going to a world cup and that we have a strong team. However, it would be dangerous to just assume that this will be the new status quo and no changes are necessary. Clearly, we have the talent for more high performing clubs but we'd be delusional into thinking that all that's needed is 3 MLS clubs to keep us there.

You think France would be this dominant with just PSG, Lyon, Marseille & their academies while the rest of the league would be Ligue 2 level? They'd still have superstars - sure but their "depth" would take a nose dive.

Good chat. Agree to disagree - I guess we have different "wants and ambitions". Some like the status quo and are content at being "competitive" and show up. I want us to be #1 in the region and consistently win trophies while us getting out of the group at the WC is an "expectation" not a "wish".

Anyhow, totally respect those who feel that keeping status quo with just 3 clubs is more important than that. Agree to disagree!

BTW - I like this guy 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

This may be the crux of our disagreement on this topic.

Yes, CONCACAF would love more tier 1 leagues.  And, yes, 12 or 16 clubs at that level would be better than three.  If the CPL was the approximate equivalent of MLS, then moving the Canadian clubs would at least be worth discussing.

Is the CPL there?  Clearly not.

Will the CPL be a tier 1 league (meaning close to LMX/MLS) in a decade?  No chance.  Remember, LMX/MLS are continuing to advance as well.  We won't be comparing CPL 2032 to MLS 2022.

Will the CPL ever catch those leagues?  It may close the gap a bit eventually but I doubt if the CPL will ever catch the top two even if it does manage to leave all the other CONCACAF leagues behind.

The way the Caps have gone this season, on the field and in the stands, the gap won't be that great if the (cough) VANCOUVER club in the valley does it right. 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I'll never understand MLS being the "measuring stick" for everything.

It isn't the measuring stick for everything but we're literally discussing Canadian MLS teams so it's a useful measure for this conversation.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

You think France would be this dominant with just PSG, Lyon, Marseille & their academies while the rest of the league would be Ligue 2 level? They'd still have superstars - sure but their "depth" would take a nose dive.

Do you think France would kick out PSG, Lyon, and Marseille so that the rest of the league can improve?  That's a better analogy.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Good chat. Agree to disagree - I guess we have different "wants and ambitions". Some like the status quo and are content at being "competitive" and show up. I want us to be #1 in the region and consistently win trophies while us getting out of the group at the WC is an "expectation" not a "wish".

I think we agree on the wants and ambitions, just differ on how best to get there.  Yes agree to disagree.  I also appreciate your ability to disagree respectfully - not everyone has that.

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Do you think France would kick out PSG, Lyon, and Marseille so that the rest of the league can improve?  That's a better analogy.

Ligue 1 would be a joke without those 3. Are you saying UEFA would be better off with a weaker Ligue 1 with its top clubs in a Super League? 

That's a much better analogy 

34 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I think we agree on the wants and ambitions, just differ on how best to get there.  Yes agree to disagree.  I also appreciate your ability to disagree respectfully - not everyone has that.

👍

 

[ted]

47 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Do you think France would kick out PSG, Lyon, and Marseille so that the rest of the league can improve?  That's a better analogy.

That is literally the opposite of what is being talked about here and clearly a really bad idea. In fact that is the whole reason the Super League BS got shut down.

Based on this scenario, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are already in the "Super League" and we are correctly pointing out that our domestic league is worse off because of it.

[RS]

2 hours ago, ted said:

Based on this scenario, Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal are already in the "Super League" and we are correctly pointing out that our domestic league is worse off because of it.

The domestic league that started in 2019? Which already has a Toronto club and is apparently going to have a "Vancouver" club as of next year?

Forcing CFMTL, TFC and VWFC out of MLS doesn't mean those three teams will then join the CPL, so there's literally no guarantee that CPL would be better off with those three not in the "Super League." All that's guaranteed is that there will no longer be MLS teams (and their academies) in those three markets, which would make our domestic game worse off than it is right now.

CPL started up with the three MLS teams already entrenched. That's not going to change unless the teams' ownerships bail.

It's a credit to the CPL that the league has improved as rapidly as it has, but MLS' existence is not holding it back.

[Ansem]

I have a question - Can we become #1 in this region, winning multiple trophies and be "expected" to get out of WC groups stage consistently by mainly relying on only 3 MLS clubs and its academies?

 

 

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I have a question - Can we become #1 in this region, winning multiple trophies and be "expected" to get out of WC groups stage consistently by mainly relying on only 3 MLS clubs and its academies?

 

 

USMNT can't even do it with 25+ MLS teams

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, RS said:

All that's guaranteed is that there will no longer be MLS teams (and their academies) in those three markets, which would make our domestic game worse off than it is right now.

Academies already existed prior & during MLS set up their own and have produced quality players. I guess that would be more business for the non-MLS academies. Canada is starting to get recognized as a good developmental market - if they close shop, others will open and before I get hit with "they are la crème de la crème" - their results have been debated at large on many different medias and forums.

After they cash out from MLS - would MLSE and Saputo (I don't know the Vancouver guys enough) really vacant their markets for someone else to take it over? We could debate the likeliness of that. I'd argue that Saputo would stay, it's not like he doesn't already consider Bologna his "A" club and he'd stop losing tens of millions of dollars (recurring complaints + not wanting to go to MLS NEXT PRO). I could be wrong about MLSE but I think they'd like to keep their monopoly on pro sport in this city or at the very least, stay the top club in Canada...

I could be wrong but if they vacant - other investors would line up for Toronto with an existing stadium and no MLS competition, same for Montreal. Don't believe - see Ottawa

 

3 hours ago, RS said:

CPL started up with the three MLS teams already entrenched. That's not going to change unless the teams' ownerships bail.

Or they get "Fury'ed" by CONCACAF

 

3 hours ago, RS said:

It's a credit to the CPL that the league has improved as rapidly as it has, but MLS' existence is not holding it back.

Any businesses would disagree with that. Monopoly is much better for business than having competitors.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

USMNT can't even do it with 25+ MLS teams

Don't the US and Mexico both have close to 100 professional teams?

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

I have a question - Can we become #1 in this region, winning multiple trophies and be "expected" to get out of WC groups stage consistently by mainly relying on only 3 MLS clubs and its academies?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, narduch said:

USMNT can't even do it with 25+ MLS teams

England has arguably the "top" league in the World and hasn't won a tournament since '66.  Italy has a "top" league in the world and has just missed the last 2 World Cups. The US missed the previous WC despite having the #2 league in the region. The Croatian league is currently ranked 17th in Europe, but they went to the last World Cup finals.  Denmark's is 19th but the current national team is enormously talented.  Iceland qualified for a WC and Euro with a semi-pro league.

My point is that there's different ways to go about development talent.  You're hyperfocused on abolishing MLS from Canada, while a number of us are saying "we've just qualified for the WC for the first time in 36 years with 3 MLS teams doing their part".  Why not at least see how the combination MLS-CPL goes for a while first?  Because once the MLS clubs are gone, they're not coming back.

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

 

England has arguably the "top" league in the World and hasn't won a tournament since '66.  Italy has a "top" league in the world and has just missed the last 2 World Cups. The US missed the previous WC despite having the #2 league in the region. The Croatian league is currently ranked 17th in Europe, but they went to the last World Cup finals.  Denmark's is 19th but the current national team is enormously talented.  Iceland qualified for a WC and Euro with a semi-pro league.

My point is that there's different ways to go about development talent.  You're hyperfocused on abolishing MLS from Canada, while a number of us are saying "we've just qualified for the WC for the first time in 36 years with 3 MLS teams doing their part".  Why not at least see how the combination MLS-CPL goes for a while first?  Because once the MLS clubs are gone, they're not coming back.

You think we can do as well or better with just 3 clubs? You want to be #1 in this region or just participate and pat ourselves in the back because we "competed"?

If our system is better over what's been done elsewhere... why aren't they adopting it?

MLS will never be truly gone... the top Canadians would still be signed by US-based clubs and we'd still see them in CCL. (The ones that matters, not the Cincinnati or Real)

Edited September 8, 2022 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

You think we can do as well or better with just 3 clubs?

But we don't have "just 3 clubs".  The CPL is here.  And quite frankly, it's the D3 clubs that have done some really good work in recent years.  D3 to MLS has been a secretly good pipeline for us.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

You want to be #1 in this region or just participate and pat ourselves in the back because we "competed"?

I don't think the 3 MLS clubs joining CPL is going to make us #1 in the region.  Nor do I think that supporting notion of 3 MLS clubs + the CPL is "patting ourselves on the back because we competed."

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

If our system is better over what's been done elsewhere... why aren't they adopting it?

If having a division 1 is all it takes, why do so many countries with D1 leagues fail to win anything?

Edit: I think my feeling is that just because something works else doesn't mean it will work in Canada, and something that works in Canada might not work elsewhere.  It's a geographically odd country with a unique population distribution.  Football competes for top talent for other sports in a way that I'm not sure many other countries do (the US has the same issue). So I think I'm prepared to see if the 3 clubs + CPL + D3 works for a while before I'd look at scrapping it.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Watchmen

[Ansem]

Agree to disagree then

Edited September 8, 2022 by Ansem
Let's go back to topic

[RS]

I was going to write a lengthy response, but @Watchmen has really hit the nail on the head of my argument.

I'm not advocating for "just the 3 MLS clubs." I'm arguing for what actually exists now, which is the three MLS clubs plus eight CPL clubs, and the continued expansion on that. Throwing out the baby with the bath water is a ridiculous desire to have right now after the long history of professional soccer failing in this country.

I will address this directly though:

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

Academies already existed prior & during MLS set up their own and have produced quality players. I guess that would be more business for the non-MLS academies. Canada is starting to get recognized as a good developmental market - if they close shop, others will open and before I get hit with "they are la crème de la crème" - their results have been debated at large on many different medias and forums.

Every "big" non-MLS academy is pay-to-play in this country. We shouldn't be looking to have more of that, in fact, if CPL wants to truly become a developmental juggernaut they need to institute free-to-play academies at some point in the future.

As of right now, CPL is flourishing on products from MLS academies, either directly (through loans) or indirectly (when guys like Borges, Carducci, Bustos, etc. leave their MLS academies and end up in CPL clubs). That's ok for now, but CPL must have a plan to make proper pathways more accessible to kids regardless of their parents' financial might.

You've repeatedly hammered the point home that you don't want to see the status quo continue, yet here you're explicitly advocating for the status quo of an academy system that has put profit over development in all but a few exceptional cases.

The only way this changes is if more pro clubs take on the financial responsibility, and right now it's only the MLS clubs who are doing so.

Also...

17 hours ago, Ansem said:

Any businesses would disagree with that. Monopoly is much better for business than having competitors.

This is such a strange statement to make. Of course businesses would prefer to be a monopoly, but competition has been proven to be best for development and innovation regardless of the industry.

(I guess I did end up writing a lengthy response... lol)

[ted]

21 hours ago, RS said:

It's a credit to the CPL that the league has improved as rapidly as it has, but MLS' existence is not holding it back.

I'm sorry, but that is so wrong as to be delusional.

The #1 thing that is hampering the CanPL from reaching it's full potential is media coverage. The coverage of MLS teams at the very least dilutes coverage of CanPL and at worst totally undermines or obliterates it. If you think the three largest media markets basically ignoring CanPL is not a problem for the league, you are wrong.

[RS]

Just now, ted said:

I'm sorry, but that is so wrong as to be delusional.

The #1 thing that is hampering the CanPL from reaching it's full potential is media coverage. The coverage of MLS teams at the very least dilutes coverage of CanPL and at worst totally undermines or obliterates it. If you think the three largest media markets basically ignoring CanPL is not a problem for the league, you are wrong.

Nope.

There is no guarantee that the disappearance of MLS teams means more media attention for the CPL. If the MLS teams go away, all that's guaranteed is that there would be little to no coverage of MLS in Canada.

We aren't talking about the NHL here — MLS barely gets coverage as it is.

It's delusional to think a Sportsnet exec, who ignored MLS as soon as TFC moved over to TSN full-time back in the early 2010s, is suddenly going to start caring about the CPL if MLS disappears from Canada. What's stopping them from giving CPL some coverage right now? It's not MLS taking up that coveted Sportsnet air time, that's for sure.

And TSN, who have been slowly getting rid of club soccer over the years are suddenly going to say, "You know, instead of those poker re-runs we air constantly or the vast amount of ESPN stuff that we get for little to no cost thanks to our minority owners down south, we're going to pay MediaPro to simulcast their OneSoccer CPL broadcasts on our channels. I know we easily could have been doing so over the past four seasons, but now that MLS is gone we'll definitely start."

It's far more likely that the two sports cable networks decide to completely pack it in on soccer (outside of the big international tournaments) than give either MLS or CPL more coverage than they do right now. Same goes for other media outlets.

[Ansem]

I'll do my best to keep it short too!

54 minutes ago, RS said:

I'm not advocating for "just the 3 MLS clubs." I'm arguing for what actually exists now, which is the three MLS clubs plus eight CPL clubs, and the continued expansion on that. Throwing out the baby with the bath water is a ridiculous desire to have right now after the long history of professional soccer failing in this country.

I'm not advocating for a switch tomorrow morning either, which is something I said many times but long term I think we should be our own thing. There are different opinions on the matter and at the end of the day, we matter very little on how this will play out - this will be with CONCACAF. I'm saying that if the status quo breaks, it won't be the "Armageddon" people fear.

 

55 minutes ago, RS said:

Every "big" non-MLS academy is pay-to-play in this country. We shouldn't be looking to have more of that, in fact, if CPL wants to truly become a developmental juggernaut they need to institute free-to-play academies at some point in the future.

As of right now, CPL is flourishing on products from MLS academies, either directly (through loans) or indirectly (when guys like Borges, Carducci, Bustos, etc. leave their MLS academies and end up in CPL clubs). That's ok for now, but CPL must have a plan to make proper pathways more accessible to kids regardless of their parents' financial might.

You've repeatedly hammered the point home that you don't want to see the status quo continue, yet here you're explicitly advocating for the status quo of an academy system that has put profit over development in all but a few exceptional cases.

The only way this changes is if more pro clubs take on the financial responsibility, and right now it's only the MLS clubs who are doing so.

I don't recall ever advocating for the status quo in regards to academies, I do agree with you that pay to play is not the way. I'm arguing that having more than 3 clubs setting up a similar system is more beneficial long term. I won't pretend to know what are CPL plans in that regard but that should also be their goal.

 

58 minutes ago, RS said:

This is such a strange statement to make. Of course businesses would prefer to be a monopoly, but competition has been proven to be best for development and innovation regardless of the industry.

There'd still be competition between clubs - within the same league of course

[ted]

3 hours ago, RS said:

There is no guarantee that the disappearance of MLS teams means more media attention for the CPL. If the MLS teams go away, all that's guaranteed is that there would be little to no coverage of MLS in Canada.

We aren't talking about the NHL here — MLS barely gets coverage as it is.

Wow, that is an ... interesting ... perspective.  Let me make sure I understand your point. The small amount of coverage of domestic teams is dominated by the MLS teams which play in the three largest media markets. But somehow if they stopped playing in MLS, media would stop covering soccer almost entirely rather than have anything to do with our national league?

[RS]

4 minutes ago, ted said:

Wow, that is an ... interesting ... perspective.  Let me make sure I understand your point. The small amount of coverage of domestic teams is dominated by the MLS teams which play in the three largest media markets. But somehow if they stopped playing in MLS, media would stop covering soccer almost entirely rather than have anything to do with our national league?

My perspective is based on the current reality of the situation.

What's stopping mainstream Canadian sports media from covering the CPL right now? Let's contain the argument to TV: MLS currently gets no air time Sportsnet, isn't shown on CBC Sports, and barely gets mentioned on local broadcasts outside of playoffs / big signings. Only TSN, the official broadcaster, gives it any regular coverage (which really boils down to 4-5 hours per week between TFC and VWFC games, plus same-day SportsCentre highlights).

As such, MLS currently isn't stopping Sportsnet, CBC or local stations from covering CPL. So what exactly changes for CPL if MLS disappears?

The biggest change might be in Quebec, which needs local French-language programming to fill hours and would be more amenable to covering a hypothetical CPL club in the province. In the rest of Canada, there are tons of English-language sports and pseudo-sports broadcasts from around the world to fill the minimal air time that MLS takes on.

Radio will do whatever TV does because that's the landscape of media these days.

Online and in print, maybe some writers and podcasters who focus on MLS would shift to CPL. Not all will, but some might. Maybe even most. Regardless, the number is shockingly small even with MLS around.

So, the marginal uptick in non-TV/radio coverage that CPL would get from MLS hypothetically leaving Canada is vastly outweighed by the very real benefits to Canadian soccer of having MLS in the three biggest cities.

Again, MLS is not the NHL. Its departure wouldn't leave a huge sports content void needing to be filled. 

 

(All of the above is not what I desire, but what I see. Things could change, but it would take a fundamental shift in media priorities. MLS and CPL can continue to grow their relevance incrementally, and get the incremental increase in media attention that comes with it. Neither is in the position to benefit from the other's demise, not now or for the foreseeable future.)

[Watchmen]

34 minutes ago, ted said:

Wow, that is an ... interesting ... perspective.  Let me make sure I understand your point. The small amount of coverage of domestic teams is dominated by the MLS teams which play in the three largest media markets. But somehow if they stopped playing in MLS, media would stop covering soccer almost entirely rather than have anything to do with our national league?

Yes. That is not inconceivable. 

[phil03]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:57 AM, Kingston said:

No, I mean I only count 13 teams on your list of your top 14 markets.

My bad, then I'd say Sherbrooke as the fourteenth team.