CPL new teams speculation

[Watchmen]

12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CONCACAF mandate is to the whole region and to do what's best for all associations not just Canadian soccer or what MLS wants according to some. Being a confederation who virtually has 2 leagues that matters with the rest being significantly weaker or an afterthought isn't great for the rest of the region on so many metric.

You could argue that status quo is great for Canadian soccer - I'd agree with you had the roster rules made reciprocal but that's another debate. You have to consider that Concacaf has another G7 nation with its own domestic league. If there's a way that this new event could fundamentally help the region to improve on all metrics, why would they pass on that opportunity? One thing's for sure, the Ottawa Fury case was a statement.

You keep saying "G7 G7 G7", but this G7 nation barely scrapped together the will to host the World Cup in 2 cities. The business case for CONCACAF/Canada is not as strong as you want to think it is.

And again - Canada's MLS teams are already routinely in the CCL, so why does CONCACAF need them to be in the CPL?

[Ansem]

57 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

You keep saying "G7 G7 G7", but this G7 nation barely scrapped together the will to host the World Cup in 2 cities. The business case for CONCACAF/Canada is not as strong as you want to think it is.

And again - Canada's MLS teams are already routinely in the CCL, so why does CONCACAF need them to be in the CPL?

The Federal Government is willing to go 1/3 on most big spending projects/events in this country. The Government of Quebec sank Montreal, not by lack of resources but because the idiot Premier doesn't rate soccer. Having idiots with their own priorities and agendas as decision-makers doesn't make it any less true that Canada is a G7 nation - meaning there lots of opportunity to make money on the sponsorship side, media deals while raising the popularity and brand of their tournament.

You can argue for the status quo all you want, it just means that thus far, over 2/3 of Canadians had little to no interest in CCL and will keep not caring - not a great way to grow the popularity or regional club football or to convince more sponsors/media to buy in.

More "competitive" clubs from more places around the country other than 1 of the 3 clubs at a time helps with market penetration. More revenues leads to more reinvestment in infrastructure in places that don't have them or can't afford them. This helps developing players locally so they can reach higher levels.

That fits well in having more regional high level leagues, which create more opportunities for players in this region to play more minutes at that level which in turn improve the national teams & football in the region. This helps Concacaf to export it's competitions abroad - which not many care about because we are viewed as a joke... I mean this is kind of sad...

 

We can agree to disagree - business-wise, it would be foolish for Concacaf to just sit back and enjoy the status quo. Doesn't help their bottom line nor performance on the pitch.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

The Federal Government is willing to go 1/3 on most big spending projects/events in this country. The Government of Quebec sank Montreal, not by lack of resources but because the idiot Premier doesn't rate soccer. Having idiots with their own priorities and agendas as decision-makers doesn't make it any less true that Canada is a G7 nation - meaning there lots of opportunity to make money on the sponsorship side, media deals while raising the popularity and brand of their tournament.

You can argue for the status quo all you want, it just means that thus far, over 2/3 of Canadians had little to no interest in CCL and will keep not caring - not a great way to grow the popularity or regional club football or to convince more sponsors/media to buy in.

More "competitive" clubs from more places around the country other than 1 of the 3 clubs at a time helps with market penetration. More revenues leads to more reinvestment in infrastructure in places that don't have them or can't afford them. This helps developing players locally so they can reach higher levels.

That fits well in having more regional high level leagues, which create more opportunities for players in this region to play more minutes at that level which in turn improve the national teams & football in the region. This helps Concacaf to export it's competitions abroad - which not many care about because we are viewed as a joke... I mean this is kind of sad...

 

We can agree to disagree - business-wise, it would be foolish for Concacaf to just sit back and enjoy the status quo. Doesn't help their bottom line nor performance on the pitch.

 

But, CONCACAF isn't sitting on the "status quo" the way you keep saying.  They're currently changing the format, and under the new CCL format it's actually going to do what you're already trying to do: spread out the CCL teams across the country.  Because 2 CPL teams will now make the CCL guaranteed, and those teams will almost certainly be outside of the big 3 markets.  So it seems like you're hoping that the 3 MLS teams are forced in to CPL, still decide to spend big (which isn't a sure thing at all and would still be up to the CPL) and then those teams make the CCL.  It seems like you're hoping for a business model that actually hurts the other markets in Canada, in terms of qualifying for this tournament. 

There's not much for broadcasting because all the markets are completely saturated with soccer already.  A "better" CPL isn't going to suddenly have broadcasters spending millions extra on the tournament.  I just don't think these "revenue increases" are realistic for what you're envisioning. 

[phil03]

8 hours ago, Ansem said:

A permanent waiver would have made sense when they arrived and there was a belief that we would never see a national D1 league in this country in our lifetime. With CPL existing - and only 7 years after CF Montreal joined, a permanent waiver is even less likely. Once it expires it's entirely concacaf's call and thus far, they seem keen on applying the rules after what happened with Ottawa.

 

I. I think you're misunderstanding this rule

**Emphasis on "Exceptional"**

Welsh clubs -->(1) clubs that are in close proximity to another member’s territory and have been long-standing members of the other league. We can debate if 100 years is comparable to 7 to 15 years.

Canadian MLS Clubs -->(3) clubs located in member associations where there isn’t currently a professional league

NZ & A-League --> Reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_National_League, looks like their D1 is the equivalent of something vaguely resembling a prolonged and expanded "Memorial Cup" with clubs qualifying from their regional leagues (what the Parrot has been preaching) with the Wellington Reserves being guaranteed a spot... Hardly the same situation with CPL/MLS. Also, Australia is an OFC nation competing in AFC competitions and WCQ. Perhaps Wellington was the only "real" pro club in NZ (I don't know) - there's plenty of "exceptional circumstances" going on here with an OFC club competing in another nation that's part & competing in another confederation. Not comparable.

Nowhere in the FIFA statute do they address anything else such as the business side of it, parity or spending level. I recall PSG spending more than the bottom half of ligue 1 combined at some point. They routinely crush over half the league - hell, it's practice for the Champions League at this point.

Parity is the exception - not the norm thus hardly a factor outside of North American sport culture.

 

The 3 MLS clubs don't have to join CPL - they can stay in MLS but would have to be based within a USSF city should the special sanction to compete in another country league be denied. Ottawa Fury opted to sell their franchise to Miami instead of joining CPL. The 3 clubs would have a choice to make should it come to that.

This is was the memo from them:

As a follow-up to my call yesterday, I wish to advise you that we have received correspondence from Concacaf indicating that Concacaf will not be in a position to consider sanctioning Ottawa Fury to participate/play in the USL for season 2019. Concacaf have taken the position that, as the CSA has a sanctioned league (the CPL) which is scheduled to play in 2019, the “exceptional circumstances” as described in FIFA Statute, Article 73 no longer apply.

The precedent is there and quite significant

Also, theses aren't CONCACAF bylaws but they are FIFA's.

If there was a case at the Court of Arbitration, why didn't the Fury went there to challenge FIFA Article 73? They had no case.

 

The Super League was directly in opposition with Article 73. Sure they could still do it but FIFA & UEFA doesn't have to sanction it making it worthless and screwing the players participating in it. They would have been banned from all FIFA competitions including the World Cup, Euro/Copa America and of course - champions leagues.

FIFA sanction is a privilege "not a right".

The best they can hope for is being treated like Cardiff or Swansea who are century old clubs while Cymru Premier got started in 1992 but again, is 7 to 15 years comparable to close to a century?

 

@ted explained it pretty well. I'll add on top of the CSA being entitled to run their territory as they see fit  - of course CPL would want the monopoly at D1 like virtually almost every other leagues in the world.

That's my theory only... How realistic is it to expect hundreds of millions of dollars to keep being invested from private entities losing money and assuming all the risks to build up/upgrade the Canadian soccer pyramid (building it up, improving it etc...) without them expecting something in return at some point? They aren't rich from being idiots or selfless.

I think they did their homework.

 

III. The best players will still be signed in MLS or overseas, CPL being the only D1 league here won't change that one bit. We're already seeing CPL guys starting on MLS squad. The more this happens, the less solid the argument that MLS needs to operate in Canada holds in my opinion.

Not having EPL clubs in Poland didn't stop them from being finalists the World Cup. They aren't close to EPL but their league produce talents capable at playing higher. IV. Also, it's not like MLS would "disappear" - that's kind of the point of a Champions League.

(Numbered for my ease of answer)

I.Here is the actual text from Fifa'st most recent statutes:

''72. Associations, leagues or clubs that are affiliated to a member association may only join another member association or take part in competitions on that member association’s territory under exceptional circumstances. In each case, authorization must be given by both member associations, the respective confederation(s) and by FIFA.''

Here is the most recent statute from CONCACAF, which does not discuss the matter, which mean that anything CONCACAF might have to use as a basis for its decision is based on the FIFA status.

And here is the CSA's most recent statutes rules on the matter: 

''10.5 Cross Border Sanctioning a) Should an amateur Club desire to enter a team in a United States-based league, the Club shall obtain the consent of the Member Association to which the Club belongs. If the application is authorised by the Member Association, it shall be forwarded to Canada Soccer for approval. b) A Professional Club in Membership shall submit an application to play in a cross-border league direct to Canada Soccer in accordance with this regulation. c) An application must be made annually to Canada Soccer either: i. 90 days prior to the end of the current regular season for Clubs already participating in a Cross-Border League; or ii. 7 months prior to the start of the season of the league to which approval is sought. d) All applications must be accompanied by approvals from the USSF (not a local US association), the US League to which the Club is wishing to participate, a statement from the Member Association or any comparable domestic league, and specify, in detail, the exceptional circumstances that require the Club to participate in a cross border league rather than a domestic equivalent. e) Canada Soccer will review and evaluate the request and seek Board approval before submitting the application to Concacaf in accordance with its regulations and, subject to Concacaf approval seek FIFA authorization in accordance with FIFA Statutes.''

In no instances is the term exceptional circumstances further define, which means that the only way to assess it is to more or less use the commonly used definition of the term. In fact, I would argue Professor Bank seem to have recognized that himself in the quote you provided, since he/she speak of circumstances under which these clubs generally fall under, not of a least of all the kind of circumstances that can qualify.

and that's where the Fury fail as a precedent: due to the comparable level of play and sums of cash attached to it can be argued that, while not common, the amount of changes Fury would have needed to do to adapt is something that at least a descent of chunk of clubs had to go through across the world and years. Its not a perfect argument (at the very least Montagliani should have recused himself from that one IMO, not because I believe he did something unethical but because the very appearance of bias is an issue IMO and it is hard for it to not exist considering his own personal investment in the CPL) but it is at least a plausible one.

For the MLS team though? Due to circumstances entirely beyond their control, namely the creation of a domestic league long after their business model had been crafted, they would have to either sell, close doors of go through a very significant downsizing. That's a situation that the overwhelming majority of clubs throughout the world haven't had to go through. By facing these circumstances the MLS clubs are very much the exception, ergo these are factually exceptional circumstances. This is reinforced by the rulings for the Welsh clubs and the Wellington Phoenix as, while they aren't a perfect parallel to the MLS clubs, since the specifics will always vary from one cases to another, they would have been put in the same situation then the MLS clubs had they been forced to join. Put it another way, you are correct that the lack of parity is not a justification in and of itself but the great difficulties that continuing to operate would have due to this lack of parity are.

The MLS clubs would therefore, unlike Fury, have a pretty descent case to bring to CAS that they have not been treated according to FIFA, CONCACAF and the CSA's own regulations.

Of course, all these entities can always change their regulations (although for the CSA we'd have to look at Canada's business law to be sure) to make it possible but I find it quite unlikely due to the backlash they would encounter. I would actually go further then Kingston and say it isn't even enough for them to think they have a compelling reason to modify the status quo. They also need to feel that dealing with whatever fallout that might come as a result is worth it. In this instance the Welsh precedent is once more instructive: their federation is as steadfastly behind Cymru Premier as the CSA is behind the CPL and there is similar voices among the fans of Cymru Premier to no longer let the like of Cardiff and Swansea play in the English, and yet nothing ever came out of it.

Arguably the CONCACAF and FIFA would care less about said backlash but for CONCACAF they'd probably need to get their members to buy in the rule change, which would be quite the steep hill to climb considering the influence of the American federation, and of the MLS through it. As for FIFA I strongly doubt they'd change their broader rule to take side in what is essentially a local matter in their eyes and them pissing off big American money by going to the bat for a comparatively smaller league strike me as immensely out of character for that organization.

II. Yeah, the rest of the world mostly function a certain way, and so what? Canada has its special circumstances regarding Soccer and we should take it into account in deciding how to proceed. In fact, I'd argue the CPL itself does since it is organizing itself around a draft and expansion model rather then the promotion/relegation model of most of the world.

As for the CPL owners, hoping for exclusivity might or might not have been part of their hopes but that doesn't give them a right to it (as much as I don't have a high opinion of the CSA due to the whole mess earlier in the year I really don't buy they would have been dumb enough to actually give a secret binding promise in that regard. Like, that's a recipe to multiply the backlash coming from making that move by a thousand, and that even if they had somehow had such a bad idea the CPL owners would have gone ''please do it publicly from the get go if you are gonna do it. Its gonna make things easier for us later on''). In any case, I do agree that the CPL owners did their business and are shrewd businessmen, hence why they got the CSB deal in place which (without relitigating it) is strongly likely to give them good profits even if the MLS stick around, hence why coming in doesn't convince me that it happening is any more likely.

III. Removing the MLS teams mean a bunch of domestic spots for Canadian players removed and therefore less opportunities to play at a higher level then the CPL. There is no two way around it.

As for the CPL growing in level of play, which it indeed does, it is indeed quite promising but right now only the cream of its players have attracted MLS interest. If the CPL is to ever be reliably competitive against the MLS, as in they aren't favorite against them but it isn't really a significant surprise when they win either, then indeed the case for the CPL to be alone in Canada would make sense but we aren't there yet and will probably not be for many years, if ever, IMO.

As for Poland, who got to the semis twice but never to the final, I really fail to see what it has to do with the current situation considering they never had clubs in the EPL. The question isn't whether it is possible or not for Canada to be successful or not with just the CPL its whether having the MLS clubs help or not.

IV. Fans of the three MLS teams don't want to just see MLS soccer, they want to be see their teams continue to exist in their current locations and to be able to continue to spend as much to develop Canadian Soccer and give as good a product on the pitch as they are currently doing.

Broadly speaking it is, of course, possible that the carpet would be pull under the feet of the MLS clubs but it is also possible that the CPL won't succeed and we would be happy that the MLS are still around so that we will something, that the CPL won't succeed but that it would be okay since its existence, alongside Canada's rise in the Soccer world, would have lead the MLS to give full domestic status to Canadian players as well as reverse its take on expansion in Canada, allowing several CPL clubs to follow a path similar to TFC, CF Montreal and the Vancouver Whitecaps, and it is also possible that the CPL will be everything we hope it will be and then some and the MLS clubs would willingly come in. All of these scenarios are rather unlikely IMO, though, even if they are possible. The very strong odds are is that both league will co-exist for the foreseeable future, with everyone being free to have their own opinion regarding whether this is good or bad, and that the best thing for the CPL is to function accordingly.

That means, IMO at least, learning the lessons of the difficulties York United face, keep building a good working relationship with the MLS teams and encouraging the fans to try to convince MLS fans to choose a CPL team as well instead of alienating them with constant calls for their teams to be sacrificed. Like, the CPL's best asset is its likability. Everyone want them to do well and everyone sympathize with them. The only thing that calling for something that is very unlikely to ever happen will do is cost it its likability. Like, obviously its anecdotical but I tried to convince friends and fellow soccer fans, of both TFC and CF Montreal, to choose a CPL team too. At first they were up for it but encountering what they, and I, felt were unfair criticisms of their original teams they lost any interest for it. That's not good for anyone, I would argue.

Of course, I gather you don't see things the way I do and that's fine. Lets just agree to disagree.

Edited September 1, 2022 by phil03

[phil03]

30 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

But, CONCACAF isn't sitting on the "status quo" the way you keep saying.  They're currently changing the format, and under the new CCL format it's actually going to do what you're already trying to do: spread out the CCL teams across the country.  Because 2 CPL teams will now make the CCL guaranteed, and those teams will almost certainly be outside of the big 3 markets.  So it seems like you're hoping that the 3 MLS teams are forced in to CPL, still decide to spend big (which isn't a sure thing at all and would still be up to the CPL) and then those teams make the CCL.  It seems like you're hoping for a business model that actually hurts the other markets in Canada, in terms of qualifying for this tournament. 

That and I do feel MTL, TFC and VAN should be given credit for the fact that their fanbase aren't limited to their areas by any means. Moreover, currently the CPL has three teams from these areas and will soon have a fourth, which make sense from a ton of reasons, both business wise and Soccer wise, but means that CPL representatives to the CCL are likely to come from the three metropolis too. That's not a criticism against the CPL, mind you, its just the reality that exist in most of the wider Soccer world: clubs from big cities have more cash so they tend to often overperform. Nothing new or exclusively Canada/MLS there either.

[Ansem]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

But, CONCACAF isn't sitting on the "status quo" the way you keep saying.  They're currently changing the format, and under the new CCL format it's actually going to do what you're already trying to do: spread out the CCL teams across the country.  Because 2 CPL teams will now make the CCL guaranteed, and those teams will almost certainly be outside of the big 3 markets. 

I was excited about the format change until they took away the group stage...again. 1st round is home and away if I get the new format correctly. Unless we go back to group stage, this competition will keep struggling across the region in terms of overall interest. We went from 3 home games to 1, disappointing.

 

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

  So it seems like you're hoping that the 3 MLS teams are forced in to CPL, still decide to spend big (which isn't a sure thing at all and would still be up to the CPL) and then those teams make the CCL.  It seems like you're hoping for a business model that actually hurts the other markets in Canada, in terms of qualifying for this tournament. 

Just showing that there was a precedent where the league was willing to be flexible on cap with the Fury based on their past.

 

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

There's not much for broadcasting because all the markets are completely saturated with soccer already.  A "better" CPL isn't going to suddenly have broadcasters spending millions extra on the tournament.  I just don't think these "revenue increases" are realistic for what you're envisioning. 

Suddenly? No - the matter is closed until 2029 for Canadian properties and these things takes time.

As for saturation - TV lost quite a bit of games to Apple's new deal. The next time around, RDS/TVA night bid for CCL as they've lost lots of CF Montreal game - at least they could get to broadcast those games, same for the others.

[Kent]

I skipped over some large chunks of a couple of the longer essays, so I'm sure this stuff has been mentioned, but just in case.

@Ansem, you mentioned a couple times CF Montreal being in MLS for 7 years. Their first season was 2012, which makes this season their 11th. Nobody knows if this is long enough to be considered longstanding or not.

The other thing is that if CONCACAF managed to force the 3 MLS teams out of MLS, that would in all likelihood cause a lot or all of the MLS teams' sponsorship and media deals (including their share of MLS league wide deals) to be torn up (with a chance to renegotiate if there is a desire of course). I have no idea how much money these teams make from this, but if they are going from getting say 10 million per year from such deals to less than 1 million, I'm sure that would spark a lawsuit that CONCACAF would probably have a hard time winning (I'm not a legal expert).

[ted]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

I have no idea how much money these teams make from this, but if they are going from getting say 10 million per year from such deals to less than 1 million, I'm sure that would spark a lawsuit that CONCACAF would probably have a hard time winning (I'm not a legal expert).

FIFA, CONCACAF, and CSA are sporting organizations that run leagues and competitions and it has been upheld many times in court cases that business is not their concern when making sporting decisions. In the case of the Ottawa Fury specifically it was made clear that they knew the rules when they signed up and they had no case.

[phil03]

1 hour ago, ted said:

FIFA, CONCACAF, and CSA are sporting organizations that run leagues and competitions and it has been upheld many times in court cases that business is not their concern when making sporting decisions. In the case of the Ottawa Fury specifically it was made clear that they knew the rules when they signed up and they had no case.

Disagreement with how the rules would apply to the MLS teams aside, do you truly believe the part in bold? I am, for myself, pretty skeptical of the idea that money considerations don't play a role in quite literally every decision they make on anything...

Edited September 2, 2022 by phil03

[ted]

4 hours ago, phil03 said:

Disagreement with how the rules would apply to the MLS teams aside, do you truly believe the part in bold?

That is a legal standard so it's not really something I can disagree with, it simply exists.

That said, if clubs fail on the business side, they go under and so regulatory bodies do want them to succeed. European bodies have been forced by circumstances and government pressure to adopt rules that try and regulate to a certain degree the business side of things. In the case of the CanPL, obviously the CSA did the CSB deal to try and secure a firm financial footing for the league to succeed.

[Kingston]

On 8/31/2022 at 6:59 PM, Ansem said:

CONCACAF mandate is to the whole region and to do what's best for all associations not just Canadian soccer or what MLS wants according to some. Being a confederation who virtually has 2 leagues that matters with the rest being significantly weaker or an afterthought isn't great for the rest of the region on so many metric.

Kicking the Canadian teams out of MLS as a way of boosting the CPL is a very, very long game.  You wouldn't get TFC, the Whitecaps, and the Impact in the CPL.  If you got three new teams, you'd get something far closer to three new Yorks than to replicating the MLS teams.

On 8/31/2022 at 6:59 PM, Ansem said:

You have to consider that Concacaf has another G7 nation with its own domestic league. If there's a way that this new event could fundamentally help the region to improve on all metrics, why would they pass on that opportunity? 

The CPL already exists.  Any theoretical benefit it would see from a pro monopoly in Canada would hardly be on the level of "fundamentally helping the region to improve on all metrics".  In any quantifiable terms, the region would be objectively poorer losing the three existing teams.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Kicking the Canadian teams out of MLS as a way of boosting the CPL is a very, very long game.  You wouldn't get TFC, the Whitecaps, and the Impact in the CPL.  If you got three new teams, you'd get something far closer to three new Yorks than to replicating the MLS teams.

The rules doesn't kick them out of MLS - they can relocate if they wish to. Also, confederation makes decisions based on their own interests all the time. It's not just to give a hand to CPL - it's more about raising the competitive level of the region if it believes that CPL having all the leverages to grow can achieve that without seriously damaging the other league - which it would not.

Maybe we'd get 3 new teams (I believe they'd want more than 1 club per metro area) that would be another "York" - maybe they wouldn't.

Ask yourself if "status quo" is any better for CONCACAF at this time knowing its ambition to raise its prestige and standing as a confederation. As of now - our region is a joke from the outside's perspective.

 

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

The CPL already exists.  Any theoretical benefit it would see from a pro monopoly in Canada would hardly be on the level of "fundamentally helping the region to improve on all metrics".  In any quantifiable terms, the region would be objectively poorer losing the three existing teams.

Aren't you overrating their importance regional-wide? UEFA was willing to ban the most powerful clubs in the world over the Super League and you're making the argument that CONCACAF will bend the rules backward over 3 Canadian clubs?

[phil03]

On 9/2/2022 at 1:14 AM, ted said:

That is a legal standard so it's not really something I can disagree with, it simply exists.

That said, if clubs fail on the business side, they go under and so regulatory bodies do want them to succeed. European bodies have been forced by circumstances and government pressure to adopt rules that try and regulate to a certain degree the business side of things. In the case of the CanPL, obviously the CSA did the CSB deal to try and secure a firm financial footing for the league to succeed.

But people can disagree on what a legal standard would mean in a specific case. This is what much of the last pages of the thread have been about and why there is a process to decide on each cases individually as well as a set up to make appeals. This is especially true in cases like this one, where the standard (aka exceptional circumstances isn't defined).

More broadly speaking though, I'd argue that yes, people and organization do let what's convenient, and that often mean where the money is, apply all the time.

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Kicking the Canadian teams out of MLS as a way of boosting the CPL is a very, very long game.  You wouldn't get TFC, the Whitecaps, and the Impact in the CPL.  If you got three new teams, you'd get something far closer to three new Yorks than to replicating the MLS teams.

The CPL already exists.  Any theoretical benefit it would see from a pro monopoly in Canada would hardly be on the level of "fundamentally helping the region to improve on all metrics".  In any quantifiable terms, the region would be objectively poorer losing the three existing teams.

Exactly, it seem to me that people who support that option often do so with the idea that the new CPL clubs who would emerge would have a following and means similar to the MLS clubs right now, or at least close to it, and which seem a dubious bet to me.

Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver were honestly not all that popular when they were in the USL. Sure, in some cases they were on TV but that was more about the fact that there isn't Hockey then, that the Expos had moved (for Montreal) and that the 25-40 demographics weren't all that keen on Baseball anymore anyway, so they need something to plug their schedule rather then them actually having a lot of visibility/popularity. Both in term of fanbase and level of play it was comparable to the CPL, a dedicated but small fanbase of clubs in CONCACAF's second tier who could something surprise MLS/Liga Mx clubs in Canadian Championship and CCL. That's roughly where new CPL clubs in the three metropolis are gonna, in all likelihood, start at in this scenario really, and on top they are gonna have to deal with the stigma of their league's interest having been invoked to force the clubs to which most of these cities' Soccer are actually faithful to into a close shop/relocate/significant downsize dilema...

The way they got to where they are today was to build meaningful ties with their communities through the years, giving them memories and getting more noticed with success on the pitch and just generally getting themselves to a higher level of play, in their cases by getting in the MLS.

That is what the CPL need to do: build their fanbase and presence in the community from the ground base, give memories to their fans by victories on the pitch and just generally become a better league. That's the only way to build the league to what people hope it will be and one can only hope that a big mistake won't be made in the name of a shortcut that doesn't actually exist.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

The rules doesn't kick them out of MLS - they can relocate if they wish to. Also, confederation makes decisions based on their own interests all the time. It's not just to give a hand to CPL - it's more about raising the competitive level of the region if it believes that CPL having all the leverages to grow can achieve that without seriously damaging the other league - which it would not.

Maybe we'd get 3 new teams (I believe they'd want more than 1 club per metro area) that would be another "York" - maybe they wouldn't.

Ask yourself if "status quo" is any better for CONCACAF at this time knowing its ambition to raise its prestige and standing as a confederation. As of now - our region is a joke from the outside's perspective.

Aren't you overrating their importance regional-wide? UEFA was willing to ban the most powerful clubs in the world over the Super League and you're making the argument that CONCACAF will bend the rules backward over 3 Canadian clubs?

Kingston can correct me if I misread but I believe that Kingston's argument is implicitly that the rules don't, in fact, do so automatically like you believe.

More broadly, and on top of the of the influence held by the MLS in CONCACAF through the American federation playing against a rule change or a ruling aligning with your take, if Canada is very much the great hope for CONCACAF here, like you argue, then I'd argue that if anything it would make CONCACAF way more hesitant to trigger a massive crisis in the world of Canadian Soccer for long term benefits that have absolutely no guarantees to happen and some solid reasons to think they might not. If Canada is important enough to potentially bring such rewards then it work both way; its importance would accrue the risks too.

Not that I am convinced by the G7 argument either, for reasons both explained by others (there is more then just the economic strength of a country to a Soccer league) and because there is benefits too for CONCACAF in maximizing the strength of the MLS, which would mean not toying with its franchises.

EDIT:

To bring it back to the topic here is how I would make a 14 teams CPL look in say 5-10 years:

Western Conference:

Cavalry

Edmonton FC

Kelowna FC

Pacific

Regina FC

Saskatoon FC

Valour

Eastern Conference:

Halifax Wanderers

Forge

London FC

Moncton FC

Athletico Ottawa

CF Québec

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by phil03

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

The rules doesn't kick them out of MLS - they can relocate if they wish to.

This is beside the point of our discussion, but that's saying, "You can't stay here but you can move if you wish."  That's not an "if you wish" situation nor is it forthright to say "just go move" when we all know that franchise value is tied to location.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Ask yourself if "status quo" is any better for CONCACAF at this time knowing its ambition to raise its prestige and standing as a confederation.

Yes, the status quo is better for CONCACAF at this time.  First, CONCACAF is interested in all soccer, not just club soccer.  It is definitely better for Canada, and therefore for events like the Gold Cup where they want a third strong national team.  Second, the three Canadian MLS teams have performed considerably above average in the CCL overall, so they are helping improve club soccer in the region.  Third, the CPL is so far from being another major player in club soccer in the region that any tiny benefit that would be generated by removing the MLS clubs is dwarfed by what would be lost in points one and two.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Aren't you overrating their importance regional-wide? UEFA was willing to ban the most powerful clubs in the world over the Super League and you're making the argument that CONCACAF will bend the rules backward over 3 Canadian clubs?

No, I'm arguing that there is no compelling reason for CONCACAF to change the status quo.  If the top fifteen MLS and Mexican teams tried to leave their respective leagues to form a North American super league, that would upset the status quo and I suspect CONCACAF would step in.  In general, however, organizations don't go changing things without a compelling reason.

[Kingston]

11 minutes ago, phil03 said:

EDIT:

To bring it back to the topic here is how I would make a 14 teams CPL look in say 5-10 years:

Western Conference:

Cavalry

Edmonton FC

Kelowna FC

Pacific

Regina FC

Saskatoon FC

Valour

Eastern Conference:

Halifax Wanderers

Forge

London FC

Moncton FC

Athletico Ottawa

CF Québec

 

I mostly like this list but I'm curious what the 14th team is.

[phil03]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I mostly like this list but I'm curious what the 14th team is.

Basically its Quebec city but I figured that if they get a team their official name would be in French so Club de Football Québec instead of Quebec Football Club. My bad, I should have precised it

EDIT: IMO Sherbrooke would be the best option for a second Quebec club and there might be an argument for it over London.

Edited September 6, 2022 by phil03

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

This is beside the point of our discussion, but that's saying, "You can't stay here but you can move if you wish."  That's not an "if you wish" situation nor is it forthright to say "just go move" when we all know that franchise value is tied to location.

You don't have to like it - but you can't deny the precedent

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Yes, the status quo is better for CONCACAF at this time.  First, CONCACAF is interested in all soccer, not just club soccer. 

"status quo is better for CONCACAF at this time" -- why?

There's LOTS of money the confederation could be making at club level and in that regard, status quo isn't a success - certainly not by lack of trying over the years with the multiple CCL formats. It's a "2 league" confederation - hardly an efficient way at getting the rest of the region invested and by in.

 

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

Second, the three Canadian MLS teams have performed considerably above average in the CCL overall, so they are helping improve club soccer in the region. 

Let's try this

Tier 1

Liga MX = A+

MLS = A

 

Tier 2

Costa Rica, Honduras = B-

 

Tier 3

Panama, Guatemala, El Salvador, CPL = C or C-

 

Tier 4

Nicaragua, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic= D or D-

 

Tier 5 = forgettable

 

1. From CONCACAF perspective, you really believe that they don't want more clubs & leagues in the "Tier 1" bracket?

2.Hypothetically, let's pretend that CPL succeeds at rising to "Tier 1" bracket in a decade, you still believe that regionally  three clubs are better than an extra 12 to 16 clubs in that Tier?

3. How has deep CCL run help with market penetration in Canada? Despite their success, the major sport networks took a pass on CCL relegating it on a streaming app that most Canadians have no clue exists - let alone the 2/3 who aren't in an MLS market.

*By resources/G7 comments - there's money to be made in Canada via media dollars, which Concacaf are struggling with. The confederation accommodating MLS with the scheduling and sanctioning the League Cup as a CCL qualifiers driven by an effort to penetrate further the US market --> to raise interest at by marketing the CCL as the final Cup --> funnelling the leads towards CCL (in marketing words) --> to get more $$$.

It's an equally massive assumption that they have no further ambition with the Canadian market. In that regard, status quo isn't doing much.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

Basically its Quebec city but I figured that if they get a team their official name would be in French so Club de Football Québec instead of Quebec Football Club. My bad, I should have precised it

EDIT: IMO Sherbrooke would be the best option for a second Quebec club and there might be an argument for it over London.

Sherbrooke, best 2nd option for the province? 🤣

Montreal is a huge "duh" after Quebec City

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

More broadly, and on top of the of the influence held by the MLS in CONCACAF through the American federation playing against a rule change or a ruling aligning with your take, if Canada is very much the great hope for CONCACAF here, like you argue, then I'd argue that if anything it would make CONCACAF way more hesitant to trigger a massive crisis in the world of Canadian Soccer for long term benefits that have absolutely no guarantees to happen and some solid reasons to think they might not. If Canada is important enough to potentially bring such rewards then it work both way; its importance would accrue the risks too.

Twitter rants don't count as "massive crisis" 😉

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You don't have to like it - but you can't deny the precedent

 

"status quo is better for CONCACAF at this time" -- why?

There's LOTS of money the confederation could be making at club level and in that regard, status quo isn't a success - certainly not by lack of trying over the years with the multiple CCL formats. It's a "2 league" confederation - hardly an efficient way at getting the rest of the region invested and by in.

 

Let's try this

Tier 1

Liga MX = A+

MLS = A

 

Tier 2

Costa Rica, Honduras = B-

 

Tier 3

Panama, Guatemala, El Salvador, CPL = C or C-

 

Tier 4

Nicaragua, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic= D or D-

 

Tier 5 = forgettable

 

1. From CONCACAF perspective, you really believe that they don't want more clubs & leagues in the "Tier 1" bracket?

2.Hypothetically, let's pretend that CPL succeeds at rising to "Tier 1" bracket in a decade, you still believe that regionally  three clubs are better than an extra 12 to 16 clubs in that Tier?

I think the CPL is much, much further away from being "Tier 1" than a decade. I don't think MLS got there in a decade, and they had more resources to do it.

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

3. How has deep CCL run help with market penetration in Canada? Despite their success, the major sport networks took a pass on CCL relegating it on a streaming app that most Canadians have no clue exists - let alone the 2/3 who aren't in an MLS market.

*By resources/G7 comments - there's money to be made in Canada via media dollars, which Concacaf are struggling with. The confederation accommodating MLS with the scheduling and sanctioning the League Cup as a CCL qualifiers driven by an effort to penetrate further the US market --> to raise interest at by marketing the CCL as the final Cup --> funnelling the leads towards CCL (in marketing words) --> to get more $$$.

It's an equally massive assumption that they have no further ambition with the Canadian market. In that regard, status quo isn't doing much.

I feel like you keep contradicting yourself here. You keep arguing that CONCACAF thinks the Canadian market is some sort of massive game changer for them financially (it isn't) but then also arguing that every time a Canadian team goes on a deep run nobody cares and they get ignored. 

At any rate, you're about to get more Canadian teams in the CCL anyway, so you'll get to see if there's more media interest out there. And if you come back with "but just 1 game!", well that's the format CONCACAF has chosen and it's probably not going to change just because the CPL might get marginally better.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

Aren't you overrating their importance regional-wide? UEFA was willing to ban the most powerful clubs in the world over the Super League and you're making the argument that CONCACAF will bend the rules backward over 3 Canadian clubs?

It's going to be fascinating to see if the Super League wins their lawsuit against UEFA in a court of law.

[Ansem]

Just now, Watchmen said:

It's going to be fascinating to see if the Super League wins their lawsuit against UEFA in a court of law.

We'll see, I'm interested too.

Agree to disagree on the rest, good talk. 

[RS]

I'm fairly certain that the CCL gets bundled in with an overall CONCACAF package (Gold Cup, Women's Gold Cup, age group championships, CONCACAF League) rather than sold individually.

It's why TSN had the rights to everything CONCACAF up until a few years ago.

[phil03]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Twitter rants don't count as "massive crisis" 😉

A messy process between owners with deep pockets and a ton of political and sports connections pushing back with all they have, including perhaps legal actions, on one side and the confederation and/or CONCACAF is very bad. The Canadian Soccer community being deeply and painfully divided by having the three biggest club fanbases in the country seeing their teams as they know them due to the existence of a league that the federation does very much seem to consider its top priority is very bad. Both happening at once, publicly and with the media avidly reporting on it would be way worse. Both in term of length and radius of the metaphorical explosion it would dwarf the CMNT players' strike of earlier this year.

That's kinda the other side of my ''people shouldn't overestimate how much of the actual team and fanbases would transfer to CPL franchise'' argument earlier: in a similar way, the messiness and the dangers of the process of the process itself shouldn't be underestimated either.

Of course, I understand that people disagree and some believe that the whole process would happen way more smooth (IMO because they want it to be so but that's neither here nor there) and I accept it. However, I would, with all due respect, argue that the fact that such a decision would be very unpopular with a lot of the Canadian Soccer community, including fairly powerful and influential chunks of it, and the risks coming with that, are an unescapable part of the picture here. As a result they should be part of any discussion about it and not just ignored with a snarky one liner.

Like, we are talking about basically closing/forcing to move/forcing to downsize the three biggest clubs of the country so as to make more space for a new league, which we all agree is currently playing at a significantly lower level. Whether its a good idea or not we obviously disagree on but IMO it is pretty self-evidently something that can trigger far more then just Twitter rants, as would any equivalent move in any other sport really.

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Sherbrooke, best 2nd option for the province? 🤣

Montreal is a huge "duh" after Quebec City

Montreal doesn't really have a Hamilton or Victoria equivalent and I do feel it is worth looking at the CHL here: there is a long history of attempt at making clubs work in the Montreal area who failed one after another (I know, not a perfect parallel but still instructive). The most likely result of trying MTL is another York United.

Edited September 7, 2022 by phil03

[Cheeta]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's going to be fascinating to see if the Super League wins their lawsuit against UEFA in a court of law.

It is strange isn't it?

No one is stopping a Super League.  FIFA is just saying you're an employee of the Super League or you're an employee of a FIFA property, you just can't be both.  Conflict of interest, that sort of thing.  Pretty normal practice really.  So what's to talk about?

(Quite a lot apparently.  Monopoly position, blah, blah, blah.  Same sort of things going on on the golf circuit right now.  Point still stands.  You don't want to be part of FIFA go do your own thing).