CPL new teams speculation

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Doubt there's much chance of the Blizzard thing happening. It sounds good as a youth club to be named after an old NASL team and talk about turning pro again.

[EnigMattic1]

Realistically, if the CPL did end up as a 16 team division, What would be the best setup for the teams in terms of location, also taking into account the current teams and proposed/confirmed expansion sides?

Could somewhere like Manitoba or Saskatchewan handle more than one side?

What is the potential for a team in NB, PE or NL?

[toontownman]

48 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Realistically, if the CPL did end up as a 16 team division, What would be the best setup for the teams in terms of location, also taking into account the current teams and proposed/confirmed expansion sides?

Could somewhere like Manitoba or Saskatchewan handle more than one side?

What is the potential for a team in NB, PE or NL?

If Saskatoon happens there will for sure be a Regina team down the line imo. They have earmarked a place to build a soccer facility that could grow into a ground, although it has to be said that is not LSSE who owns the rights but Real and FC Regina. I'd expect something to be worked out down the line there though. https://regina.ctvnews.ca/new-soccer-facility-officially-in-the-works-on-the-real-campus-1.5520127

If its the reverse and Saskatoon council turns down the stadium I don't believe we will see a Saskatoon team in the next 20 years at least. Prairieland is the perfect venue. There simply won't be anywhere better down the line that could better meet the requirements. If the council turns it down i cant see what else could ever satisfy them down the line. Its now or never.

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

I think if the Toronto Blizzard do happen, York United will need to relocate. Once again I would suggest relocate to Niagara Falls Region.

The Blizzard can play in a Hopefully renovated Lampton Stadium.

There are other teams like Guelph and Simcoe with ambitions too. I think it could easily grown into either east and west or a CPL1 and CPL2 down the line.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

With the right economic model it probably could. Then we hear about $9 or $12 million expansion fees and expectations of a 5,000 to 10,000 seater SSS at launch preferably with municipal and/or provincial funding.

[Cheeta]

Post World Cup could be interesting.  To many organizations across footballdom Canada, that is to say CPL, is still virgin territory.  And can be had on the cheap.  Atletico may not be the only franchise owner in this league from parts foreign before too long.

[Footscray]

21 hours ago, K Edgar said:

Kelowna would be moving well down the list of largest Canadian population centres.  (Source Wikipedia, existing CPL cities in Blue, expansion sites (including Kelowna) in Red)

 

20	Kelowna	181,380

Kelowna is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada, in the 2021 census it has risen to 222,748 metro and I would say the catchment for season tickets will be much larger as there are almost 400,000 people within an hour drive when you bring Penticton, Vernon etc into the picture.  Pretty comparable to Saskatoon in terms of potential fanbase I think

Seems to be adding almost 10,000 people a year to the metro population and the new folks coming in are a totally different demographic to the retirees from the prairies that had been so prominent here in the late 90s/early 00s.

I think the success is going to hinge on the facility location and quality.  This is a market with no other professional or semi-pro teams and there's a big appetite among the locals for something like this, but people won't buy season tickets to sit on metal bleachers with no cover in +35 in August and eat bags of chips.  It's a bit of a spoiled market in terms of expectations for a day out, but there is a void here for sports.  Also even beyond your season tickets holders your walkup/casual tickets sales will probably be 300-500 higher a game if it's downtown where there's so much tourist foot traffic.  If we get some covered stands and a couple decent places to buy food and beer and it's downtown, I think this is going to be quite a strong franchise. 

A crappy Clarke Field style venue out in the sticks and it'll go under in 2-3 years.  Would guess it would draw 1,500 or so at best.  A nice downtown stadium close to the water and restaurants with some cover and amenities and I could see 3,000ish as a regular starting point though just guessing.

I like the question on two regional conferences, out west I could see:

Langley

A second metro van team in Surrey, Burnaby or Richmond (I'm surprised Surrey or Richmond wasn't the first choice over Langley TBH)

Victoria

Kelowna

Calgary

Edmonton

Saskatoon

Regina

If it were to happen I hope we don't get stuck with Winnipeg like in the CFL likely would make the travel costs so much more expensive for the 3 or 4 BC teams.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Footscray

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Cheeta said:

...To many organizations across footballdom Canada, that is to say CPL, is still virgin territory.  And can be had on the cheap...

The rumoured $9 million for an expansion fee plus an SSS isn't as cheap as it could be if growth was the top priority. CanPL and CSB appear to have been set up in a way that primarily benefits the initial wave of investors.

[Copes]

17 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

What is the potential for a team in NB, PE or NL?

As an Atlantic Canadian (Nova Scotia living in NL) I think St. John's, Newfoundland and Moncton are both interesting prospects. 

I don't know Moncton as a city very well, but I do know there would be potential for an interesting rivalry with Halifax. 

St. John's, NL though... it has literally everything I would look for in an expansion market EXCEPT its on a damn island and that has massive cost implications as it pertains to travel. For a team... you're likely looking at hundreds of thousands of extra dollars spent flying off the island each year for Away games. Flights to NL have always been a bit of a pain. This is the biggest negative.

But the positives... oh man the positives in Newfoundland are big. King George V Field already exists. A 6000 seat (supposedly) soccer specific stadium where Canada qualified for the World Cup in 86. The oldest SSS in NA. Cost to get it CPL ready would be petty minimal IMO. Then you have the soccer culture here. Hockey is definitely the #1 sport but there are pockets on the island that are absolutely soccer mad. And NLers come out for their teams. AHL teams historically have the highest attendance in the league. With the irish-influence in the NL culture I really can't imagine a scenario where the tram isn't embraced and game day isn't a blast.

All that said... we're still an island. And that will always be hard to contend with. 

I think if the travel piece could be overcome / subsidized by the league a bid would make a lot more sense. Not sure how realistic that is though. If I had a few million I'd do it... but you know... a little short right now.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Copes

[K Edgar]

20 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Could somewhere like Manitoba or Saskatchewan handle more than one side?

The 2nd largest city in Manitoba, Brandon, has a population of a little over 50,000 -- not large enough for a CPL team.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Copes said:

...oh man the positives in Newfoundland are big. King George V Field already exists. A 6000 seat (supposedly) soccer specific stadium where Canada qualified for the World Cup in 86. The oldest SSS in NA...

There were strong rumours back in 2018 that CanPL execs visited St John's as a possible location for a CanPL club. The main problem with the 6000 seat SSS apparently is that the parking provision is terrible and any large crowd there results in severe congestion.

[BearcatSA]

20 hours ago, Footscray said:

Kelowna is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada, in the 2021 census it has risen to 222,748 metro and I would say the catchment for season tickets will be much larger as there are almost 400,000 people within an hour drive when you bring Penticton, Vernon etc into the picture.  Pretty comparable to Saskatoon in terms of potential fanbase I think

Seems to be adding almost 10,000 people a year to the metro population and the new folks coming in are a totally different demographic to the retirees from the prairies that had been so prominent here in the late 90s/early 00s.

I think the success is going to hinge on the facility location and quality.  This is a market with no other professional or semi-pro teams and there's a big appetite among the locals for something like this, but people won't buy season tickets to sit on metal bleachers with no cover in +35 in August and eat bags of chips.  It's a bit of a spoiled market in terms of expectations for a day out, but there is a void here for sports.  Also even beyond your season tickets holders your walkup/casual tickets sales will probably be 300-500 higher a game if it's downtown where there's so much tourist foot traffic.  If we get some covered stands and a couple decent places to buy food and beer and it's downtown, I think this is going to be quite a strong franchise. 

A crappy Clarke Field style venue out in the sticks and it'll go under in 2-3 years.  Would guess it would draw 1,500 or so at best.  A nice downtown stadium close to the water and restaurants with some cover and amenities and I could see 3,000ish as a regular starting point though just guessing.

I like the question on two regional conferences, out west I could see:

There is a void for pro sports here but I have wondered more recently about which pro sports could fill it.  For instance, I thought a CEBL team might do well here on summer evenings in air conditioned comfort (is that possibility in the works?)

Home games outside of late June until  Labour Day would probably have quite  significantly better attendance compared to those summer months.  I am skeptical about the tourist walk up crowd:  the same Edmontonians who aren't watching their own CPL team aren't likely to leave the lake to see another CPL team, for example.  I think the summer months in Canadian/North American pro sports markets is an issue in general.  Funding for sports stadia development is always a hot potato in politics at all levels, and this one would be no exception.

However, the stakeholders are doing their diligence and all power to them.  One trial balloon might be to have VFC play Calvary at the Apple Bowl in a midsummer neutral site regular season match to get a read on the scene.  I agree with Blizzard Parrot that 2024 might be a little optimistic (perhaps 2025, a year before the WC, might be the target?), but with the right leadership things might roll pretty quickly.

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by BearcatSA

[Ansem]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:26 PM, EnigMattic1 said:

Could somewhere like Manitoba or Saskatchewan handle more than one side?

Saskatchewan could with a rivalry between Regina and Saskatoon. Regina already having a stadium helps a ton - just need to ensure that they would get good attendances

[Footscray]

51 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

There is a void for pro sports here but I have wondered more recently about which pro sports could fill it.  For instance, I thought a CEBL team might do well here on summer evenings in air conditioned comfort (is that possibility in the works?)

Home games outside of late June until  Labour Day would probably have quite  significantly better attendance compared to those summer months.  I am skeptical about the tourist walk up crowd:  the same Edmontonians who aren't watching their own CPL team aren't likely to leave the lake to see another CPL team, for example.  I think the summer months in Canadian/North American pro sports markets is an issue in general.  Funding for sports stadia development is always a hot potato in politics at all levels, and this one would be no exception.

However, the stakeholders are doing their diligence and all power to them.  One trial balloon might be to have VFC play Calvary at the Apple Bowl in a midsummer neutral site regular season match to get a read on the scene.  I agree with Blizzard Parrot that 2024 might be a little optimistic (perhaps 2025, a year before the WC, might be the target?), but with the right leadership mightbroll pretty quickly.

 

It's a fair point on the tourists, but I think the success hinges on the venue feeling like a destination worth going to.  A nice beer garden and a few good concessions or food trucks, maybe a band playing before or during halftime and a lot of them will wander in, I think the sport is almost irrelevant.  Covered stands are critical.  There are so many people down there in the summer just wandering around with time and money to burn, it's not like Edmonton where they need to make a point of going and get there, these people are already there and just want to check something out and have an experience.  It won't be your base but a few hundred wandering in to check it out, could absolutely see it enhancing ticket sales a bit.

Basketball is also growing in popularity too but is a long ways behind soccer I think here and I don't think a lot of people who aren't seniors wanting to be indoors on summer eves.  Minor league Baseball I could see doing similarly well with a nice facility and drawing 2-3k though isn't as popular as soccer among school families.  CFL would probably do well as far as the % of the market who would go out but the population is too low.

Hockey was king here in the old days before the growth boom but the Rockets attendance has been declining and youth enrollment is way down when I look at my kids classes hockey is definitely way behind soccer, dance/gymnastics, skiing and a few others.  I think you're finally seeing the run on effect of the NHL jacking ticket prices and making the games expensive to watch and the barriers to lower income and immigrant families having their kids play the game with the brutal ice times and expensive gear and registration fees.  It is really noticeable how few kids are playing now compared to 20 years ago.

The Apple Bowl is going to be a failure if they try it for anything more than an exhibition.  It's a brutal facility, when the Challenge used to play there they couldn't draw flies and the Suns football team is same, nothing around it/no chance of walking but with limited parking, no concessions, one tiny permanent stand, a bunch of metal bleachers that you could fry an egg on and a running track between spectators and the field.  About as bad as it gets in my opinion aside from the quality of the pitch itself

Edited November 14, 2022 by Footscray

[EnigMattic1]

8 hours ago, Copes said:

As an Atlantic Canadian (Nova Scotia living in NL) I think St. John's, Newfoundland and Moncton are both interesting prospects. 

I don't know Moncton as a city very well, but I do know there would be potential for an interesting rivalry with Halifax. 

St. John's, NL though... it has literally everything I would look for in an expansion market EXCEPT its on a damn island and that has massive cost implications as it pertains to travel. For a team... you're likely looking at hundreds of thousands of extra dollars spent flying off the island each year for Away games. Flights to NL have always been a bit of a pain. This is the biggest negative.

But the positives... oh man the positives in Newfoundland are big. King George V Field already exists. A 6000 seat (supposedly) soccer specific stadium where Canada qualified for the World Cup in 86. The oldest SSS in NA. Cost to get it CPL ready would be petty minimal IMO. Then you have the soccer culture here. Hockey is definitely the #1 sport but there are pockets on the island that are absolutely soccer mad. And NLers come out for their teams. AHL teams historically have the highest attendance in the league. With the irish-influence in the NL culture I really can't imagine a scenario where the tram isn't embraced and game day isn't a blast.

All that said... we're still an island. And that will always be hard to contend with. 

I think if the travel piece could be overcome / subsidized by the league a bid would make a lot more sense. Not sure how realistic that is though. If I had a few million I'd do it... but you know... a little short right now.

I would assume that would be similar to a game between HFX and someone like Pacific. That would definitely need to be taken into consideration when scheduling fixtures. You would probably end up seeing teams playing HFX away, followed by St. John's away.

I know St. John's was rumoured when the CPL was first announced and, as you have said, King George V Field is already there. Moncton was another team that I heard rumoured and there is also the (since renamed) Moncton Stadium there which has hosted soccer games in the past.

[Copes]

11 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There were strong rumours back in 2018 that CanPL execs visited St John's as a possible location for a CanPL club. The main problem with the 6000 seat SSS apparently is that the parking provision is terrible and any large crowd there results in severe congestion.

I had heard the rumor (more or less had someone I trust locally confirm it) back before the league kicked off. That assessment of the parking situation at KGV makes a ton of sense. I'm not sure how much worse it would be than Halifax... it is effectively a downtown stadium with a good few random lots within a 10 minute walk but no large lot that could host most people. 

One thought though is that Regatta Day does happen... right there. It's a major annual event at Quidi Vidi Lake (across from King George) and thr city shuts down for the day (holiday). Traffic isn't allowed down there and thousands of people make their way to the event just fine.

It's not awesome. But it's doable.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Copes

[Watchmen]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:42 PM, Footscray said:

A nice downtown stadium close to the water and restaurants with some cover and amenities and I could see 3,000ish as a regular starting point though just guessing.

We've seen the proposed location for the Kelowna team, but I'm not familiar enough with the area. Is it convenient or further out?

[Footscray]

37 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

We've seen the proposed location for the Kelowna team, but I'm not familiar enough with the area. Is it convenient or further out?

It's very good as far as being central.  North end of downtown.  In what used to be an old industrial area that is rapidly turning into a brewery district and a lot of people like going there already.  I count 7 craft breweries within a <10 minute walk.  5 mins walk from the rockets arena.

The main challenge will be that the site has a bunch of ball diamonds on it including kings stadium where the summer league baseball team plays and also the curling club in close proximity.   If it's publicly funded they will need to appease those groups.  there are no other spectator Baseball stadiums in town or curling clubs and both have pretty big user bases.  The baseball stadium can be rebuilt elsewhere its more of a suburban crowd and it's just a giant bleacher you could easily outfit any ball diamond in town with same without a lot of cash

Building a new curling club would be a huge expense I think i read that it is one of the biggest ones in western canada.  If they are proposing knocking that down I think this bid will almost certainly stall out in public consultation.

Hopefully they are able to work around it and integrate it into the site which seems feasible as it is adjacent to the ball diamonds rather than in the middle of the space if that makes sense

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Footscray

[cornerkick]

10 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

There is a void for pro sports here but I have wondered more recently about which pro sports could fill it.  For instance, I thought a CEBL team might do well here on summer evenings in air conditioned comfort (is that possibility in the works?)

Home games outside of late June until  Labour Day would probably have quite  significantly better attendance compared to those summer months.  I am skeptical about the tourist walk up crowd:  the same Edmontonians who aren't watching their own CPL team aren't likely to leave the lake to see another CPL team, for example.  I think the summer months in Canadian/North American pro sports markets is an issue in general.  Funding for sports stadia development is always a hot potato in politics at all levels, and this one would be no exception.

However, the stakeholders are doing their diligence and all power to them.  One trial balloon might be to have VFC play Calvary at the Apple Bowl in a midsummer neutral site regular season match to get a read on the scene.  I agree with Blizzard Parrot that 2024 might be a little optimistic (perhaps 2025, a year before the WC, might be the target?), but with the right leadership things might roll pretty quickly.

 

a soccer game similar to the "touchdown Atlantic" games the CFL has been doing is an excellent idea for the CPL to gauge interest and build momentum for potential new expansion areas...

[Cblake]

Shell Place in Fort McMurray hosted a CFL game and had around 5,000 fixed seats. One thing that would be needed is new turf, so it was blank with no permanent lines. Could be interesting under the right circumstances. 

Shell Place - Wikipedia

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Shell Place in Fort McMurray hosted a CFL game and had around 5,000 fixed seats. One thing that would be needed is new turf, so it was blank with no permanent lines. Could be interesting under the right circumstances. 

Shell Place - Wikipedia

If I'm the league, I split the games between Edmonton and Fort McMurray so I can compare.

Perhaps less games in Edmonton might make it more of an event and get higher crowds and if Fort McMurray works - I'd just go there until the ownership/stadium in Edmonton is settle.

Just thinking out loud but could even get the city of Edmonton to take CPL more seriously because as of now, they have no incentives to do anything since they feel the league needs them more than they need CPL.

League needsbto change that dynamic and test other places

Edited November 15, 2022 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

First, full credit to @red card for this.  It's posted over in the Metro Vancouver thread, but I think there's a bunch of it that's relevant to this one and didn't seem to get picked up on here.  I'm cutting out some of it because it's maybe not quite as important here (but everyone should still read it).  From a Rob Friend interview:

On 11/12/2022 at 7:12 PM, red card said:

A site focused on business side of football clubs (FBIN) interviewed our Friend. The first part is stuff most of us here know. In the latter half of the interview, Friend gives us some nuggets. 

- We’re so far behind in Canada regarding football infrastructure. There are not even 100 football stadiums, but there’s a growing league. We have created a second division now that we call League One Canada. So now we’re starting the second division in Canada. They need small stadiums like 2000-4000-seat stadiums. So we partnered with one of the biggest stadium manufacturers in Asia to have them come to Canada and North America to build these. These small football stadiums are just as important as anything else.

- Ultimately, our goal is 14 to 16 teams, and it’s not a matter of investor interest. There are, in fact, a lot of investors. Our goal is to add one team every year.. The biggest challenge to our growth is the stadium infrastructure. There’s a market that investors want, but there’s no stadium.
 

 

 

So, per Friend, the league is aiming for 14-16 teams. 

As well, this very much sounds like pro/rel isn't happening, what with his discussion that the League Ones are now being treated as "Div 2", with a focus on smaller stadiums.  I'm sure some will argue that the League One teams might be able to be "promoted" to the CPL one day, but I think given the fees involved in CPL and the "relegation" aspect that it wouldn't be a simple matter.

[Cheeta]

16 hours ago, Copes said:

As an Atlantic Canadian (Nova Scotia living in NL) I think St. John's, Newfoundland and Moncton are both interesting prospects. 

...

I think if the travel piece could be overcome / subsidized by the league a bid would make a lot more sense. Not sure how realistic that is though. If I had a few million I'd do it... but you know... a little short right now.

Pet peeve of mine.   

Have advocated and will advocate until the end of time about how travel related expences should be a league responsibility.  Collectivley borne by the the members of the league equally.  Same as officiating.  Same as financing HQ. 

We're going to see a concentration of teams in the major population centers in BC and Ontario.  I don't see how things could evolve any differently in this league.  Doesn't mean that the necessary critical mass needed to substain the league doesn't require clubs in the urban islands out in the "hinterlands".   Halifax, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, whereever. And legitimacy as a national league requires that.

If you're going to have a league whose bylaws regulate the franchises staffing costs, in part in the name of financial fair-play, how can you have a league where certain teams travel expences are by a multiple greater than others? 

I don't think the dispariities between the teams is too great right now but a future CPL with 4 or 5 Ontario teams in the near future isn't wild fantasy.  Or further expansion in BC.  Which would be wonderful but when considering travel expences teams in certain locations may be forced to be trading a greater portion of the player budget for travel budget than their rivals.  And that isn't in the best interests of a league which wants to promote a fair competitive playing field.   

Just my opinion.        

 

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

As well, this very much sounds like pro/rel isn't happening, what with his discussion that the League Ones are now being treated as "Div 2", with a focus on smaller stadiums.  I'm sure some will argue that the League One teams might be able to be "promoted" to the CPL one day, but I think given the fees involved in CPL and the "relegation" aspect that it wouldn't be a simple matter.

The wording is 

We have created a second division now that we call League One Canada. So now we’re starting the second division in Canada. 

We still don't know what exactly they are planning with League 1 Canada. For now, it's a "Memorial Cup" type playoffs. We don't know what they are planning... 

Could be that the strongest clubs from League 1s will promote to League 1 Canada while any new club will be forced to enter the pyramid via their regional league*

*(in Ontario, entry level will be via League 2 Ontario and clubs will have to work their way up to League 1 Premier Division)

Kind of make it more affordable to get in at all while giving an undeniable advantage to clubs entering CPL directly earlier.

There's lots of pro/rel formulas out there. We could see automatic pro/rel between L1C and L1s while forcing a pro/rel playoff between CPL bottom and L1C top club until L1C is strong enough on its own where automatic at that level makes sense

Also, interesting choice of words.

So it would be like the Austrian Bundesliga owning the Austrian Football Federation as one business together. 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

32 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The wording is 

We have created a second division now that we call League One Canada. So now we’re starting the second division in Canada. 

We still don't know what exactly they are planning with League 1 Canada. For now, it's a "Memorial Cup" type playoffs. We don't know what they are planning... 

Maybe, and that's not inconceivable.  But I definitely read "League One Canada" being the umbrella organization in much the same way that the "CHL" is the umbrella for Major Junior hockey - L1BC, L1O, and PLSQ = WHL, OHL, and QMJHL.