CPL new teams speculation

[Kingston]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

20 years ago MLS had only 10 teams.

I really don't think CPL with 8/9 teams needs to be so desperate to add teams too fast

So long as they have at least eight teams, they don't necessarily need to expand at all. 

Much like MLS of twenty years ago, however, the CPL is still in the phase where expansion brings a bigger geographic footprint and makes the league more attractive to sponsors and media.  Viewed strictly from that standpoint, they'd at least want Saskatoon and Quebec City.

At something like 12 to 14 teams, the CPL would be in the same place that MLS is today where the question would arise as to whether further expansion would be useful.  

 

[Kingston]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

This is a bullshit statement and shows you aren't discussing the topic in good faith

Not at all.  Believe me, I've seen discussions elsewhere where posters said that MLS is screwing over Canada, would love to see the CPL fail, should be kicked out of the country with the existing Canadian teams forced to move to the CPL, etc.   I just summarized that attitude as "MLS is evil".

[RS]

13 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Not at all.  Believe me, I've seen discussions elsewhere where posters said that MLS is screwing over Canada, would love to see the CPL fail, should be kicked out of the country with the existing Canadian teams forced to move to the CPL, etc.   I just summarized that attitude as "MLS is evil".

I mean, we've seen such arguments on this board. No need to sugar coat it.

In both cases, the arguments come from an extreme minority who don't really deserve attention. The reality in Canada is that men's soccer needs MLS and CPL to co-exist and thrive in parallel.

MLS doesn't serve/cover enough of the country, whereas CPL doesn't provide a high enough level of play to (directly) feed our senior national team. They each fill different, important roles.

[Ansem]

32 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I thank you for this explanation.  It makes more sense than many of the explanations I've seen on other boards which generally amount to "MLS is evil".

Business is business - got to leave feelings out of it. Some might see MLS as "evil" but others equally "over romanticize" it. They are private owners who runs a business and will act to advance their interest.

I guess we could all find a balance in that view.

[Ansem]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

So long as they have at least eight teams, they don't necessarily need to expand at all. 

Much like MLS of twenty years ago, however, the CPL is still in the phase where expansion brings a bigger geographic footprint and makes the league more attractive to sponsors and media.  Viewed strictly from that standpoint, they'd at least want Saskatoon and Quebec City.

At something like 12 to 14 teams, the CPL would be in the same place that MLS is today where the question would arise as to whether further expansion would be useful.  

 

Would you agree that derbies can raise interest in the product? Granted that Cavalry-FC Edmonton has been lackluster, Saskatoon vs Regina, Pacific vs Vancouver (Metro), Quebec vs. Montreal or GTA clubs could be interesting.

Also, the territory being this big - I'd argue that more clubs would help with the logistic of traveling for some of the clubs by having rivals closer to them thinking of Pacific and Halifax...

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, RS said:

I mean, we've seen such arguments on this board. No need to sugar coat it.

In both cases, the arguments come from an extreme minority who don't really deserve attention. The reality in Canada is that men's soccer needs MLS and CPL to co-exist and thrive in parallel.

MLS doesn't serve/cover enough of the country, whereas CPL doesn't provide a high enough level of play to (directly) feed our senior national team. They each fill different, important roles.

Disagreeing with the statement in bold doesn't mean that MLS is viewed as evil. An extreme minority are quick to make that shortcut as well.

It's know that I disagree with that statement "long term". Short term, - I agree with it. There's nothing "extreme" in believing that Canada (G7 nation) can get its act together (eventually gets its governance in order) and run their leagues & pyramid without having clubs participating in another country (like the overwhelming majority of countries out here) is not an extreme view either

[RS]

Just now, Ansem said:

Disagreeing with the statement in bold doesn't mean that MLS is viewed as evil. An extreme minority are quick to make that shortcut as well.

It's know that I disagree with that statement "long term". Short term, - I agree with it. There's nothing "extreme" in believing that Canada (G7 nation) can get its act together (eventually gets its governance in order) and run their leagues & pyramid without having clubs participating in another country (like the overwhelming majority of countries out here) is not an extreme view either

Why do you seem to think I'm referring to you? If you think MLS is "evil" (in the way Kingston described the term), then what I wrote applies to you.

If not, there's no need to defend yourself.

[Ansem]

Just now, RS said:

Why do you seem to think I'm referring to you? If you think MLS is "evil" (in the way Kingston described the term), then what I wrote applies to you.

If not, there's no need to defend yourself.

Nowhere in my reply was I referring to you specifically - those who make that shortcut will recognize themselves. I'm not defending myself either - I don't view MLS as evil but it's not perfect either. I'm on record saying had MLS applied reciprocity on the roster rules for Canadians, I would be the first against them leaving Canada.

Why denying ourselves a situation where we get our cake and eat it too?

[Kingston]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Would you agree that derbies can raise interest in the product? Granted that Cavalry-FC Edmonton has been lackluster, Saskatoon vs Regina, Pacific vs Vancouver (Metro), Quebec vs. Montreal or GTA clubs could be interesting.

Also, the territory being this big - I'd argue that more clubs would help with the logistic of traveling for some of the clubs by having rivals closer to them thinking of Pacific and Halifax...

These are good points although, as you indicate, we haven't yet seen the rivalry games actually translate into big crowds.  Certainly having even one close travel game can make a big difference.

On the other hand, expansion beyond a certain size is going to mean putting teams in smaller and smaller markets.  So at some point you see diminishing returns in terms of becoming more attractive to sponsors.  "Hey, we added Quebec City or Montreal!" is a lot more attractive to a sponsor than "Hey, we added Peterborough!"

Additionally (and I think this something that MLS has missed) at some point your smaller markets start to limit how high you can take your league.  Imagine the CPL at the age of 20.  The top ten teams are all averaging over 10 000 fans, rivalries are fierce, and the clubs have history in the communities as people who watched their own first CPL games at the age of 10 or 12 are now taking their own kids to their first matches.  The league really wants to drive upward by, say, adding DPs and tripling the salary cap.  But they can't because there's no way that teams 14-18 could ever survive in that environment.

 

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

The problem is that they aren't willing to do that. There was an article in Soccer Quebe where Saputo was approached to do just that and outside of providing advice - he's unwilling to invest money to the level CPL would require. At best he'd consider a reserve team like TFC and Vancouver wanted. That's not good enough for CPL as those clubs would be ran at minimal cost. They aren't going to spend on infrastructure or marketing - so it doesn't bring much value to the league.

Yup, I get it.  I'm just stating my opinion on MLSE (and Saputo, Kerfoot) ownership in CPL.  I don't want MLS reserve teams, but have no problem with MLS owners investing in the league under CPL terms and conditions.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

20 years ago MLS had only 10 teams.

I really don't think CPL with 8/9 teams needs to be so desperate to add teams too fast

It's a seize the moment kind of thing. Or are we are being greedy?

Also: while MLS projected a certain size of stadium and club, in that 15-20,000 range of fans, the CPL projects less, and most likely always will. So we may need to have more clubs and cover the territory more completely to do a comparable job.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

I thank you for this explanation.  It makes more sense than many of the explanations I've seen on other boards which generally amount to "MLS is evil".

I think there might be ways around the problems you raise if both sides were strongly interested, but I do get your point about the difference, which is why I called the European owned clubs farm teams and the potential MLS teams reserve teams.  (Use whatever names one wants but, as you point out, they are treated quite differently.)

If you look at At Madrid, their "farm" or feeder hierarchy is:

-their own B team, first (because those youngsters and not so young are close by, can legally be called into the first team for whatever reason, have been trained to play in the Atléti system. And by extension their U19s.

-Atlético San Luis in Mexico. In this case, they have brought in players for the first team, and have loaned out in the opposite direction. But the At S Luis-Atléti movement is still rather modest.

-Atlético Ottawa. A bit of movement of B team or u-19 players. To date, iirc, no movements from Ottawa to Madrid of any player at all. Mind you, they have been negligent with their u-21 minutes, meaning they don't care that much, and also they have not seen enough youth players to know if they could make the jump.

Now, even if Werder Bremen were to go in to a CPL team (mentioning because they came up as a rumour for Vancouver), or some mid-level French club like Auxerre or Lille, the situation would be rather similar. Their reserve side would be a primary feeder, and anything in the CPL would likely never go directly to the first team. So even a team at a lower level than At Madrid would find the CPL too low to think of as a legit "farm" team.

Important: the only teams that could use a CPL level to feed their first team, say a strong team in Norway or Belgium, are too modest to afford going into a CPL adventure, the cost would not be worth it to them. 

Finally: maybe some day this will change, the level of CPL will be proven stronger, some real talents will make the move, and teams like At Madrid will thank their stars for having made the investment when they did. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It's a seize the moment kind of thing. Or are we are being greedy?

Also: while MLS projected a certain size of stadium and club, in that 15-20,000 range of fans, the CPL projects less, and most likely always will. So we may need to have more clubs and cover the territory more completely to do a comparable job.

Honestly I don't know what the right answer is.

Obviously the league needs to be in Quebec. 

I still think things are more optimistic than pessimistic in terms of where the league is headed. Even of it isn't perfect. 

[Kingston]

Just now, narduch said:

Honestly I don't know what the right answer is.

Obviously the league needs to be in Quebec. 

I still think things are more optimistic than pessimistic in terms of where the league is headed. Even of it isn't perfect. 

There's also the point that, while it might not be fun, some turn over in teams may be inevitable.  And that's not completely a bad thing.  It means that the league is willing to take some risks.  It may also simply not be realistic to expect that a whole bunch of new teams will be started up and every single one of them will be successful.

Finally, turn over doesn't have to be forever.  The CPL will ultimately want a team in Edmonton but maybe the city goes dark for a few years before staging an exciting and successful comeback.  There are enough other teams that the existence of the league isn't in doubt if one team drops out.

[ted]

5 hours ago, RS said:

The reality in Canada is that men's soccer needs MLS and CPL to co-exist and thrive in parallel.

That is your opinion. Disagreeing with that conclusion is not the same thing as saying "MLS is evil."

I believe MLS has been a good thing for Canada and served a purpose.

I also believe that so long as MLS teams exist in Canada the CanPL will be prevented from reaching it's full potential.

The beauty of the three Canadian franchises being sold is that everybody wins. The ownership groups make a huge windfall on their investments and are free to operate clubs in the CanPL if they wish. Players will still be able to play in MLS just as Mexicans are able to do so. Canadian Media will no longer be forced to split coverage  between the two leagues. Having a single league will stop the confusion in the general public and raise the profile of the league.

[RS]

16 minutes ago, ted said:

That is your opinion. Disagreeing with that conclusion is not the same thing as saying "MLS is evil."

Correct. I've not said anything to the contrary, yet two of you have somehow decided that I have.

However, what I have said is that there have been people on this board who have bemoaned MLS' existence as a threat to Canadian soccer. One particular long-time poster from Alberta (who I believe actually now lives on Vancouver Island) springs immediately to mind, and there have been a handful of others over the years.

16 minutes ago, ted said:

I also believe that so long as MLS teams exist in Canada the CanPL will be prevented from reaching it's full potential.

The beauty of the three Canadian franchises being sold is that everybody wins. The ownership groups make a huge windfall on their investments and are free to operate clubs in the CanPL if they wish. Players will still be able to play in MLS just as Mexicans are able to do so. Canadian Media will no longer be forced to split coverage  between the two leagues. Having a single league will stop the confusion in the general public and raise the profile of the league.

OK, and this is your opinion.

Having a single league could raise the profile of the league, or it could go several other ways. The only certain outcome from eliminating the MLS teams would be that there is no more MLS in Canada. Nothing else is guaranteed.

This is why I and others aren't so keen on throwing out what's working just for a shot at something else maybe, possibly doing the same thing down the line.

The MLS teams fill a niche that none of the CPL could hope to fill for years, if not decades, to come. Meanwhile, the CPL's role is one that three MLS teams could never hope to fill. It's a mutually beneficial, unique situation.

[Ansem]

I believe that a decision on MLS in Canada will come from Concacaf & Fifa eventually. I'm of the opinion that just like the Fury, they won't be able to make a case for the status quo. I also think concacaf has its own interest/motivations. 

Going back to expansion, I have a good feeling about the future. The new commissioner seems more focused on quality over quantity and getting to 16+ clubs might be more a post 2026 thing when the country will be on a soccer high.

At least we know that Halifax will have a higher average attendance than an NHL club...the Arizona Coyotes 🤣

[phil03]

8 hours ago, RS said:

I mean, we've seen such arguments on this board. No need to sugar coat it.

In both cases, the arguments come from an extreme minority who don't really deserve attention. The reality in Canada is that men's soccer needs MLS and CPL to co-exist and thrive in parallel.

MLS doesn't serve/cover enough of the country, whereas CPL doesn't provide a high enough level of play to (directly) feed our senior national team. They each fill different, important roles.

Honestly, I feel everyone would be better off, the CPL included, if we could all accept that reality and move forward. MLS clubs aren't going anywhere, their owners have pockets too deep and too many contacts in the sports and political worlds to be shoved aside against their consent. They represent too big a chunk of Canada's Soccer fanbase to risk alienating by treating their team in the same way the Fury has been. The CPL isn't gonna reach the level of play of the MLS for the foreseeable future (which prevent a Fury-like scenario from happening as it was CONCACAF argument to force the issue (and CONCACAF forcing the issue is still making things difficult for the Ottawa franchise to this day, as there is a descent chunk of the Fury fanbase who has yet to jump shit)), if only due to the MLS' head start and the US having way more money and population then Canada. The academies and domestic players spots coming from those clubs will remain invaluable for Canadian Soccer as a whole.

The sooner the CPL and its fanbase at least make their peace with this and organize their strategy for the future accordingly, including (to be relevant to this thread) by not trying to force their way in MLS markets except for cases like Pacific and Forge where Hamilton and Victoria are clearly distinct, the better for everyone including the CPL. All that the current dislike for Canadian MLS clubs does is a) poisoning the waters in the CPL's relationship with MLS clubs and b) making it less attractive for fans of MLS clubs to also pick themselves a CPL team and follow it, which realistically the CPL need them to do to trive.

2 hours ago, ted said:

That is your opinion. Disagreeing with that conclusion is not the same thing as saying "MLS is evil."

I believe MLS has been a good thing for Canada and served a purpose.

I also believe that so long as MLS teams exist in Canada the CanPL will be prevented from reaching it's full potential.

The beauty of the three Canadian franchises being sold is that everybody wins. The ownership groups make a huge windfall on their investments and are free to operate clubs in the CanPL if they wish. Players will still be able to play in MLS just as Mexicans are able to do so. Canadian Media will no longer be forced to split coverage  between the two leagues. Having a single league will stop the confusion in the general public and raise the profile of the league.

 

2 hours ago, RS said:

Correct. I've not said anything to the contrary, yet two of you have somehow decided that I have.

However, what I have said is that there have been people on this board who have bemoaned MLS' existence as a threat to Canadian soccer. One particular long-time poster from Alberta (who I believe actually now lives on Vancouver Island) springs immediately to mind, and there have been a handful of others over the years.

OK, and this is your opinion.

Having a single league could raise the profile of the league, or it could go several other ways. The only certain outcome from eliminating the MLS teams would be that there is no more MLS in Canada. Nothing else is guaranteed.

This is why I and others aren't so keen on throwing out what's working just for a shot at something else maybe, possibly doing the same thing down the line.

The MLS teams fill a niche that none of the CPL could hope to fill for years, if not decades, to come. Meanwhile, the CPL's role is one that three MLS teams could never hope to fill. It's a mutually beneficial, unique situation.

There is also the fact that while the CPL is worthwhile and valuable the best case scenario isn't necessarily the exact same then the best case scenario for Canadian Soccer as a whole isn't necessarily the same because the CPL' interest and the wider interest of Canadian Soccer as a whole aren't necessarily the same either since the CPL isn't the only thing of value in the Canadian Soccer scene. Then, on an opposite but not mutually exclusive train of thoughts, there is also the fact that I don't understand why we see things as a zero-sum game here. Surely if Canadian Soccer as a whole is more successful it means a bigger pie for everyone to share right?

Like, that is quite literally my only area of concerns: the dedication of many to the CPL is beautiful to see and if some people don't want to support MLS clubs anymore then that their call to make (although I'd humbly suggest at least supporting them when they are Canada's representative to the CCL) but there is other factors to consider beyond what is good to the CPL, even if it is indeed still an important one to consider.

Edited August 30, 2022 by phil03

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I feel everyone would be better off, the CPL included, if we could all accept that reality and move forward. MLS clubs aren't going anywhere, their owners have pockets too deep and too many contacts in the sports and political worlds to be shoved aside against their consent. They represent too big a chunk of Canada's Soccer fanbase to risk alienating by treating their team in the same way the Fury has been. The CPL isn't gonna reach the level of play of the MLS for the foreseeable future (which prevent a Fury-like scenario from happening as it was CONCACAF argument to force the issue (and CONCACAF forcing the issue is still making things difficult for the Ottawa franchise to this day, as there is a descent chunk of the Fury fanbase who has yet to jump shit)), if only due to the MLS' head start and the US having way more money and population then Canada. The academies and domestic players spots coming from those clubs will remain invaluable for Canadian Soccer as a whole.

The sooner the CPL and its fanbase at least make their peace with this and organize their strategy for the future accordingly, including (to be relevant to this thread) by not trying to force their way in MLS markets except for cases like Pacific and Forge where Hamilton and Victoria are clearly distinct, the better for everyone including the CPL. All that the current dislike for Canadian MLS clubs does is a) poisoning the waters in the CPL's relationship with MLS clubs and b) making it less attractive for fans of MLS clubs to also pick themselves a CPL team and follow it, which realistically the CPL need them to do to trive.

 

There is also the fact that while the CPL is worthwhile and valuable the best case scenario isn't necessarily the exact same then the best case scenario for Canadian Soccer as a whole isn't necessarily the same because the CPL' interest and the wider interest of Canadian Soccer as a whole aren't necessarily the same either since the CPL isn't the only thing of value in the Canadian Soccer scene. Then, on an opposite but not mutually exclusive train of thoughts, there is also the fact that I don't understand why we see things as a zero-sum game here. Surely if Canadian Soccer as a whole is more successful it means a bigger pie for everyone to share right?

Like, that is quite literally my only area of concerns: the dedication of many to the CPL is beautiful to see and if some people don't want to support MLS clubs anymore then that their call to make (although I'd humbly suggest at least supporting them when they are Canada's representative to the CCL) but there is other factors to consider beyond what is good to the CPL, even if it is indeed still an important one to consider.

You're overthinking all of this in my opinion. The final say lies with Concacaf, the wants of CPL & fans or MLS & fans don't weight much at the end of it.

Think about which scenario concacaf views more favorably and then you're onto something.

This decision will be taken on a more "macro" level than "micro"

[phil03]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

You're overthinking all of this in my opinion. The final say lies with Concacaf, the wants of CPL & fans or MLS & fans don't weight much at the end of it.

Think about which scenario concacaf views more favorably and then you're onto something.

This decision will be taken on a more "macro" level than "micro"

I do think of the macro: the very probable reason that Montagliani tried to force the issue with the Fury (against the preference of Soccer Canada and the CPL I might ad) is that he saw the CPL as a key part of his legacy. In spite of that he saw the mess (for all the reasons mentioned above on top of the MLS very probably not being happy about it to say the least) that trying to do the same thing with CF Montreal, TFC and the Whitecaps would, in all probability, create and wisely elected to not pursue the matter, or perhaps he once thought of doing it and they saw how things with Fury had turned out and put the breakes on any similar project for the MLS clubs. 

If the CONCACAF didn't move a finger or say a word in that direction once it became clear the MLS teams weren't willing with someone who would have had such personal motivations to do it then it won't with someone else at the helm in the future, as they will be quite probably significantly more dispassionate and risk averse about it then Montagliani and they'd probably take the easier path and go ''Grandfathered in they were and grandfathered in they remain, at least until the CPL reach a level comparable to the MLS. Best of luck to everyone on the pitch!''

The CONCACAF won't go to war with a ton of people (yes the fans but also the owners, the MLS, the contact the owners and the MLS have in FIFA and in the political realm, maybe even Apple, etc...) just to help out the CPL. They won't create a crisis for themselves, or at least a serious issue to handle, when they can just keep the status quo without any problem. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by phil03

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're overthinking all of this in my opinion. The final say lies with Concacaf, the wants of CPL & fans or MLS & fans don't weight much at the end of it.

Think about which scenario concacaf views more favorably and then you're onto something.

This decision will be taken on a more "macro" level than "micro"

I don't think Concacaf would do that.

They basically already lay over for MLS and Liga MX. 

They aren't going to rock the boat on this matter 

[Stoppage Time]

I wonder. Is professional soccer better off in Ottawa with Atletico, or would the Fury have progressed the game more? This season has been a big improvement for Atletico. Does that bode for a better future than Fury could have provided?

[Watchmen]

In terms of a foreign club owning a CPL team, it's still something that should be kept an eye on. No, it's not the "reserve" club system MLS would have tried, but their interests aren't necessarily the same interests as that of Canadian Soccer.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...and in Atletico's case they have bailed out on at least one foreign affilate in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATK_(football_club)

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...and in Atletico's case they have bailed out on at least one foreign affilate in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATK_(football_club)

On two, Kolkata and the one in France, Lens. But maybe "bailed" isn't right, they didn't have controlling interest of Lens. Someone made them an offer on their share of Kolkata. They invested in and didn't just leave, they took offers. 

Still, their motivation is that they're a big club but lesser known and their merchandising and shirt value is low for a team of their size. Not only to look for players (the LigaMX team may be different). I'd like to know if the Ottawa investment has had any appreciable effect on their brand recognition or even merchandising in Canada. 

I could see them disinvesting or taking on minority Canadian partners, which I don't think anyone would mind. And then a name change?