Ballou Tabla

[BuzzAndSting]

16 minutes ago, Moldy9 said:

Dude I have no clue what you’re talking about. I never said anything bad on Herdman other than he won’t have the resources he was used to w the women and  that CSA handled the firing poorly. 

Chilax. What no one is allowed to bring solutions to this problem. Fine stick w the status quo. See how far that’ll take us. 

Were you not very critical of the CSA for the hiring of Herdman as MNT? Wouldn't the MNT bringing in kids to WCQ just to cap tie come off as ridiculous and amateurish? Something that's never been done for?

Apologies if I'm wrong.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I personally think that all call-ups should obey the strict criteria of having the best team on the field for the match to be played. We can't sacrifice quality, group coherence, loyalty of others and technical rigour just to speculatively cap-tie players. Especially at these ages, when still teens. You have to try to honestly convince a player, and negotiate, and be strong dialoguing, as it seems both Floro and Zambrano were when it came to a few of our current starters. 

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Free kick said:

In my post earlier,  I referred to a media feature in the kid in the mainstream media that I saw.   This was before the time BT signed with Montreal.  He didnt get known only when he signed with Mtl

I saw a mainstream media report on Michael Thornton when he was 12 (I think, might have been as old as 14 when I saw him on TV, I am pretty sure he was 12 when I first heard of him through this board). Should we have cap tied him then?

[toontownman]

36 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I personally think that all call-ups should obey the strict criteria of having the best team on the field for the match to be played. We can't sacrifice quality, group coherence, loyalty of others and technical rigour just to speculatively cap-tie players. Especially at these ages, when still teens. You have to try to honestly convince a player, and negotiate, and be strong dialoguing, as it seems both Floro and Zambrano were when it came to a few of our current starters. 

And that's why we lose these players.. this attitude is for losers... too nice... too Canadian. 

I absolutely agree.

[Moldy9]

44 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Were you not very critical of the CSA for the hiring of Herdman as MNT? Wouldn't the MNT bringing in kids to WCQ just to cap tie come off as ridiculous and amateurish? Something that's never been done for?

Apologies if I'm wrong.

For BT this is all in hindsight. I’m just frustrated like others that guys use CSA as a launchpad. I do understand BTs feelings for IC but I’m not happy we got played. Amateurish maybe but when we get burnt so many times and are minnows in world soccer I think we’re justified to fight tooth and nail to protect our assets cause traditional Soccer nations won’t respect any code. I wouldn’t fault CSA for capping a brilliant dual citizen16-17 year old so long as he showed promise and especially against a minnow like Belize or St Lucia in qualifying. 

As for Herdman I hope his connections w the brass pays the men’s program dividends however I was very critical about the CSA before the scandal unfolded because I felt they weren’t doing much to support OZ and the CMNT w their lack of action in booking friendlies. 

[Moldy9]

And no I’m not advocating capping 12 year olds or 14 year olds

16 years is the age of consent in Canada though. Just saying. Kids can join the army in this country at 16 and go to war. 

[BuzzAndSting]

21 minutes ago, Moldy9 said:

For BT this is all in hindsight. I’m just frustrated like others that guys use CSA as a launchpad. I do understand BTs feelings for IC but I’m not happy we got played. Amateurish maybe but when we get burnt so many times and are minnows in world soccer I think we’re justified to fight tooth and nail to protect our assets cause traditional Soccer nations won’t respect any code. I wouldn’t fault CSA for capping a brilliant dual citizen16-17 year old so long as he showed promise and especially against a minnow like Belize or St Lucia in qualifying. 

As for Herdman I hope his connections w the brass pays the men’s program dividends however I was very critical about the CSA before the scandal unfolded because I felt they weren’t doing much to support OZ and the CMNT w their lack of action in booking friendlies. 

Very thoughtful response. Thanks.

I would be open to cap tying guys for the sake of it but not when the next round of WCQ is literally on the line. Had we discovered BT when we were playing Dominica or Belize, sure, but not when the stakes are high and we still thought we had a shot at the Hex.

[Bertuzzi44]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I personally think that all call-ups should obey the strict criteria of having the best team on the field for the match to be played. We can't sacrifice quality, group coherence, loyalty of others and technical rigour just to speculatively cap-tie players. Especially at these ages, when still teens. You have to try to honestly convince a player, and negotiate, and be strong dialoguing, as it seems both Floro and Zambrano were when it came to a few of our current starters. 

If the goal is to qualify for the world cup, then maybe capping youth players with multiple international options and a lot of potential makes sense. It deepens the player pool and who knows, maybe in a couple years Tabla is a star playing for Barcelona; the kind of player who could really help Canada, you know, qualify for a World Cup!  

 

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

If the goal is to qualify for the world cup, then maybe capping youth players with multiple international options and a lot of potential makes sense. It deepens the player pool and who knows, maybe in a couple years Tabla is a star playing for Barcelona; the kind of player who could really help Canada, you know, qualify for a World Cup!  

 

As we saw with Junior, other countries is not always our competition, sometimes its not playing international football at all.

[MtlMario]

16 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

No one said the opposite. I saw the same feature as I believe it was posted on this forum. That doesn't change the fact that cap tying a 16 year old amateur youth player in a crucial WCQ match would make our program look like more of a joke than it already is.

How old was Larin when he got called for the mens team and where was he playing?

Edited January 27, 2018 by MtlMario

[MtlMario]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I personally think that all call-ups should obey the strict criteria of having the best team on the field for the match to be played. We can't sacrifice quality, group coherence, loyalty of others and technical rigour just to speculatively cap-tie players. Especially at these ages, when still teens. You have to try to honestly convince a player, and negotiate, and be strong dialoguing, as it seems both Floro and Zambrano were when it came to a few of our current starters. 

With all due respect, we don't have that much to sacrifice as you called it, but we are not a country that is spitting out world class player by the dozens every year. When we have or think we have a gem, like I said before , playing him a few minutes, I don't think we'd  be sacrificing much. Thanks for reading.

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

How old was Larin when he got called for the mens team and where was he playing?

He was 19 playing at UConn when he was called to Camp Poutine and a couple friendlies in March of that year.

He was cap tied against Dominica in 2015 after he was with Orlando.

[Moldy9]

Since CSA has transitioned w WNT coach to MNT coach another correlation Kara Lang was 15 years old when she got her first cap. CSA has done it before

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Moldy9 said:

Since CSA has transitioned w WNT coach to MNT coach another correlation Kara Lang was 15 years old when she got her first cap. CSA has done it before

Yup and as we know... WNT... MNT ...it's all the same ...right?

If it works for the women it will work for the men, and if you disagree with me I will call you the "s" word!

[Grizzly]

Most talented players even at 16 know if they are being called up for the purposes of being cap tied or at the very least their parents will know it. If they are talented enough that we could possibly be interested in them at that age and have a second option they are interested in playing for they will refuse the call up so this is a pretty useless argument to have about whether we should call these guys up. If Tabla is sitting out Impact practices to try and force a transfer at age 18 I highly doubt he was going to accept a call up to cap tie him at 16. 

[Moldy9]

1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

Most talented players even at 16 know if they are being called up for the purposes of being cap tied or at the very least their parents will know it. If they are talented enough that we could possibly be interested in them at that age and have a second option they are interested in playing for they will refuse the call up so this is a pretty useless argument to have about whether we should call these guys up. If Tabla is sitting out Impact practices to try and force a transfer at age 18 I highly doubt he was going to accept a call up to cap tie him at 16. 

Well that goes w my idea Grizz and those Vs tired of players like BT milking the system. “You don’t want the call up to the senior team then why do you want to wear the U-20 shirt? Ciao. No soup for you.“ player takes his ball and exits stage left. 

CSA shouldn’t waste their time and money in a teen that won’t commit to the association/country. 

We don’t owe them anything. 

“Ask not what your country can do for you but what can YOU do for your country.” John F. Kennedy

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

Most talented players even at 16 know if they are being called up for the purposes of being cap tied or at the very least their parents will know it. If they are talented enough that we could possibly be interested in them at that age and have a second option they are interested in playing for they will refuse the call up so this is a pretty useless argument to have about whether we should call these guys up. If Tabla is sitting out Impact practices to try and force a transfer at age 18 I highly doubt he was going to accept a call up to cap tie him at 16. 

This. The CSA did all they could with Tabla. He was on the youth teams, voted U17 and U20 player of the year, called to the Gold Cup squad   and met with OZ. What else could they do? The only way to stop the bleeding with dual nationals is to progress...... continue to develop quality young players...win games...... get to the hex....... Yes, I know it is a circular argument but it is what it is. If Canada was consistently qualifying for the WC like Mexico, Costa Rica and the USA this would not be an issue. If the FIFA rankings for Canada and the IC were reversed, does anyone believe that Tabla would choose to play for the IC even with Didier Drogba's influence?  Having said all this, while Tabla has  taken a giant step forward signing with Barcelona ( don't think anyone on this forum would have predicted this even 2 weeks ago), he still has to perform and continue to develop at a rate that would elevate him to  the first team, be it Barca or another team/league.  Anthony Lozano (Honduran now 24 yrs) has been  in the Spanish leagues since 2011 when he was 17. He has played in LaLiga2  with Tenerife in 2015 and Barca B since the summer of 2017. He still has not made it to La Liga or been transferred to another top league. There is still some light at the end of the tunnel......the power of negativity!

[Kadenge]

20 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

Most talented players even at 16 know if they are being called up for the purposes of being cap tied or at the very least their parents will know it. If they are talented enough that we could possibly be interested in them at that age and have a second option they are interested in playing for they will refuse the call up so this is a pretty useless argument to have about whether we should call these guys up. If Tabla is sitting out Impact practices to try and force a transfer at age 18 I highly doubt he was going to accept a call up to cap tie him at 16. 

This. The CSA did all they could with Tabla. He was on the youth teams, voted U17 and U20 player of the year, called to the Gold Cup squad   and met with OZ. What else could they do? The only way to stop the bleeding with dual nationals is to progress...... continue to develop quality young players...win games...... get to the hex....... Yes, I know it is a circular argument but it is what it is. If Canada was consistently qualifying for the WC like Mexico, Costa Rica and the USA this would not be an issue. If the FIFA rankings for Canada and the IC were reversed, does anyone believe that Tabla would choose to play for the IC even with Didier Drogba's influence?  Having said all this, while Tabla has  taken a giant step forward signing with Barcelona ( don't think anyone on this forum would have predicted this even 2 weeks ago), he still has to perform and continue to develop at a rate that would elevate him to  the first team, be it Barca or another team/league.  Anthony Lozano (Honduran now 24 yrs) has been  in the Spanish leagues since 2011 when he was 17. He has played in LaLiga2  with Tenerife in 2015 and Barca B since the summer of 2017. He still has not made it to La Liga or been transferred to another top league. There is still some light at the end of the tunnel......the power of negativity!

[Obinna]

30 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

This. The CSA did all they could with Tabla. He was on the youth teams, voted U17 and U20 player of the year, called to the Gold Cup squad   and met with OZ. What else could they do? The only way to stop the bleeding with dual nationals is to progress...... continue to develop quality young players...win games...... get to the hex....... Yes, I know it is a circular argument but it is what it is. If Canada was consistently qualifying for the WC like Mexico, Costa Rica and the USA this would not be an issue. If the FIFA rankings for Canada and the IC were reversed, does anyone believe that Tabla would choose to play for the IC even with Didier Drogba's influence?  Having said all this, while Tabla has  taken a giant step forward signing with Barcelona ( don't think anyone on this forum would have predicted this even 2 weeks ago), he still has to perform and continue to develop at a rate that would elevate him to  the first team, be it Barca or another team/league.  Anthony Lozano (Honduran now 24 yrs) has been  in the Spanish leagues since 2011 when he was 17. He has played in LaLiga2  with Tenerife in 2015 and Barca B since the summer of 2017. He still has not made it to La Liga or been transferred to another top league. There is still some light at the end of the tunnel......the power of negativity!

I agree with all of that, but as an aside I want to comment on Lozano.

Although he was rightfully viewed as a top prospect for Honduras, I personally do not think he ever was the calibre of prospect Tabla was. Tabla was, for me, one of the most talented prospects I had ever seen for Canada. If he was American, he would get the same amount of hype that Tyler Adams now gets, if not more. That's the level of talent I consider Tabla. 

Lozano on the other hand was sort of like the failure to Joel Campbell's success. Not good enough to make it in the top leagues, but good enough to settle into a lower level, where he can make more money than back in Latin America. That's it.

Nothing wrong with that of course, just pointing out that Lozano and Tabla are not on the same level.

Tabla I think is going to develop into an outstanding player, regardless if he ends up playing for us, or not (and unfortunately, I see it as not).

At least we have Davies, an equal level of prospect who has actually accomplished some things already internationally. 6 goals in 3 games including being voted to team of the GC 17 tournament, best young player and joint top scorer at the age of 16. 

I really hope Davies gets more chances at Vancouver this year.

I also like how this started with Tabla and ended with Davies.

Edit: Actually technically it started with Lozano lol 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Obinna

[MtlMario]

45 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

If the FIFA rankings for Canada and the IC were reversed, does anyone believe that Tabla would choose to play for the IC even with Didier Drogba's influence?

So you're saying that even with all the interviews he gave, saying he didn't feel CANADIAN, he eats, speaks and feels African, he was BULLSHITTING all along and he really feels Canadian and wants to play for Canada but he can't because IC has a better ranking. Give me a break. Even if Canada was ranked # 1, we would't be his first choice. Trust me.

[MtlMario]

5 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

He was 19 playing at UConn when he was called to Camp Poutine and a couple friendlies in March of that year.

He was cap tied against Dominica in 2015 after he was with Orlando.

So he's the only Special Case that can be called without a PRO contract?

[BuzzAndSting]

18 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

So he's the only Special Case that can be called without a PRO contract?

Can be called? The CSA could call anyone they want if they were inclined.

[SpecialK]

35 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

So you're saying that even with all the interviews he gave, saying he didn't feel CANADIAN, he eats, speaks and feels African, he was BULLSHITTING all along and he really feels Canadian and wants to play for Canada but he can't because IC has a better ranking. Give me a break. Even if Canada was ranked # 1, we would't be his first choice. Trust me.

He may feel IC and African but players want to play and win in major  competitions like  friendlies against the world’s best , Olympics, regional tournaments like gold cups, U world cups and World Cups. If Canada was ranked higher and showed we can  qualify and compete for  titles, it would be a VERY tough  decision to turn Canada Down. That also goes for all our dual nationals and young players not just Ballou. 

I don’t blame any player who are weighing their options. The CSA is a mess! With the current idiots running it, who’s only goal is 2026 and “fixing grassroots and  prepping the future “. I put that in  quotations because that’s the company token line.

Right now we have good players and with a lot of talented young players 17-22  coming up. The goal should be rasing our ranking , getting invited to Copa America and Gold Cup 2019, the  Olympics in 2020 and the World Cup 2022. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by SpecialK

[Unnamed Trialist]

You can't overcome your own amateurish systemic failure by sticking some more crazy systemic stuff in there like trying to force cap tie teens. What you need, as said already, is to correct the system and get some results by doing things right, and make yourself attractive for multi-nationality players.

We are in a cycle of doing things incorrectly, and we think we can turn it around by doing them even worse. The solution to being ass-backwards? Sending your entire anus into a sixth dimension time-space warp. Smart.

On top of this: it is an insult to your loyal players who come out and defend the colours, against all odds. And to the peers of those with more than one NT option. Do you realize what you are saying? 

The kid who is fourth generation Canadian and has no other national ties and is really sharp at 17 can develop on his own pace and we are not going to worry about calling him up. He still has u20s, and if he stays sharp, he'll get his deserved NT callup in a few years. Basically, screw him, no special treatment, he is ours so we don't have to show him any consideration. The guy beside him, who is the same quality,  but who has a Czech grandmother, we pander him and hype him and push to cap tie him early. He goes and gets the Senior NT payments, he gets the higher profile, the press, he attracts a better agent, it launches his career because he has our call-up as a calling card. And he can still do his frigging one-time NT change if the Czechs come calling in a few years.

I would only call up a player who is clearly going to make a plus contribution to the NT, always, no matter what. Even as player 23 on the squad. He can't be behind anyone in the pecking order, ever, as long as those guys are willing to come to the call-up. That's the way I see it. 

[matty]

4 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

He may feel IC and African but players want to play and win in major  competitions like  friendlies against the world’s best , Olympics, regional tournaments like gold cups, U world cups and World Cups. If Canada was ranked higher and showed we can  qualify and compete for  titles, it would be a VERY tough  decision to turn Canada Down. That also goes for all our dual nationals and young players not just Ballou. 

I don’t blame any player who are weighing their options. The CSA is a mess! With the current idiots running it, who’s only goal is 2026 and “fixing grassroots and  prepping the future “. I put that in  quotations because that’s the company token line.

Right now we have good players and with a lot of talented young players 17-22  coming up. The goal should be rasing our ranking , getting invited to Copa America and Gold Cup 2019, the  Olympics in 2020 and the World Cup 2022. 

It's always about winning for a lot guys and it's very possible even if Canada was a top 50 nation Tabla would still desire to play for the nation of his birth. Don't discount that sense of home.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here (more so than other posts you've made about what the program needs). Guys do weight options and have every right to.

The CSA seems to have gone through a very messy transition from Vic to Reed and hopefully it's able to focus on things like that will help like getting the CPL and provincial programs working together well. Success in the Nations League and the Olympics really need to be the next goals competition wise (I really don't care about the Copa America).

While they've been messy I don't think you can really blame them outright for Tabla, they called him up, nurtured him and even honoured him and he wants to wait.