Jonathan Osorio

[yothat]

should Jonathan Osorio look to move to another team or league where he can play game in and game out

[badname22]

35 minutes ago, yothat said:

should Jonathan Osorio look to move to another team or league where he can play game in and game out

Yes but only if he signs for a MLS club.

Edited August 29, 2017 by badname22

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, yothat said:

should Jonathan Osorio look to move to another team or league where he can play game in and game out

I think you mean start game in and game out - he pretty much plays in every game unless injured or away due to international duty

[shermanator]

If Osorio were to find another club in MLS (or abroad at a similar level) where he could start every game, then yes it would make sense to make a move. However, I'm not sure he  would have many suitors in MLS, given his relatively high salary next year ($250K if the Vocal Minority podcast is accurate), and international status. While he's not in the ideal scenario right now, he's pretty much the first midfielder off the bench most games. 

I think he's an MLS lifer given what we've seen 5 years into his career. At his best, he was considered one of the best young midfielders in MLS. At his worst, he's a sub who is inconsistent in his performance from game to game.

[BCM]

Why is it that all the Canadians seem to be overpaid? Serious question.

Is it supply and demand, meaning there's less supply so teams lock up the three guys they wanted. Ashtone has to be the poorest example of value for money (although Q not being on the minimum salary his last few years is a close runner up), but osorio's salary is also totally excessive in MLS for what he does.

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Why is it that all the Canadians seem to be overpaid? Serious question.

Is it supply and demand, meaning there's less supply so teams lock up the three guys they wanted. Ashtone has to be the poorest example of value for money (although Q not being on the minimum salary his last few years is a close runner up), but osorio's salary is also totally excessive in MLS for what he does.

Silly question i think.  Rickets, Osorio are in the 180-190 range, which isnt bad for someone whos been in a league a bit and will get some starts.  I think Osorio's 6 goals in 40 games (all competions/playoffs)warrant a wage above the bare bones journeyman level.  And he is just getting squeezed out as TFC has gotten better and better midfielders.  Morgan is a longtime player ( and has been a partime starter over the years) and is only making 100g, Chapman Edwards Hamilton are all under 90.  

Not sure about Piette, but bernier is 160, Hamel, Tabla, Leferve, Choniere etc all the rest are all on starvation wages.  Edgar (175), Tiebert (125) Dejong (140) and tesho (110) Johnson (410) Larin (150) round out the rest.  I'm not sure where you see all the CDN being overpaid?  I see some guys who under perform, or who have lost their starting jobs and need to move on, but nobody who really seems to be hosing the club (DeGuzman...cough cough).  

[BCM]

38 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Silly question i think.  Rickets, Osorio are in the 180-190 range, which isnt bad for someone whos been in a league a bit and will get some starts.  I think Osorio's 6 goals in 40 games (all competions/playoffs)warrant a wage above the bare bones journeyman level.  And he is just getting squeezed out as TFC has gotten better and better midfielders.  Morgan is a longtime player ( and has been a partime starter over the years) and is only making 100g, Chapman Edwards Hamilton are all under 90.  

Not sure about Piette, but bernier is 160, Hamel, Tabla, Leferve, Choniere etc all the rest are all on starvation wages.  Edgar (175), Tiebert (125) Dejong (140) and tesho (110) Johnson (410) Larin (150) round out the rest.  I'm not sure where you see all the CDN being overpaid?  I see some guys who under perform, or who have lost their starting jobs and need to move on, but nobody who really seems to be hosing the club (DeGuzman...cough cough).  

We disagree, to some extent. But the salaries you stated are grossly inaccurate.

Every team has anomalies in pay. But to me our clubs overpay the locals, especially when signing them to a homegrown contract.

TFC: @shermanator just said osorio's on a reported $250k... that's too much (note: MLS PA reports guaranteed 200K). Morgan has barely played for a few years, and tbh on a US team a 2nd/3rd string left back doesn't make over 100k. Chapman makes significantly more than Bono at 108k. And how Q wasn't on the minimum is beyond me...

Vancouver: Your use of Tiebert is another great example for me - he's been around, but in a salary cap league a bit player making over $100k is not the norm. Adekugbe isn't on 65k, but 80k - why? What did he do to deserve this? Bustos is not on the minimum... Edgar's 183k is slightly excessive, but I'll give that a pass.

Montreal: Table is on 79k - that's a starvation wage? Shome is making 128k. Lefevre is on 105k - justify that! Crepeau is on 79K, again does he justify over the minimum? 

Note: Minimum reserve salary looks to be 54K now, and minimum senior 65k. Not the starvation days of 12k a year anymore by any means.

Edited August 29, 2017 by BCM

[saladroit]

4 hours ago, shermanator said:

If Osorio were to find another club in MLS (or abroad at a similar level) where he could start every game, then yes it would make sense to make a move. However, I'm not sure he  would have many suitors in MLS, given his relatively high salary next year ($250K if the Vocal Minority podcast is accurate), and international status. While he's not in the ideal scenario right now, he's pretty much the first midfielder off the bench most games. 

I think he's an MLS lifer given what we've seen 5 years into his career. At his best, he was considered one of the best young midfielders in MLS. At his worst, he's a sub who is inconsistent in his performance from game to game.

Osorio would count as an international? I thought that he would fit the Canadian domestic rule in MLS, given that he's a homegrown player for TFC, and (IIRC), players who were developed at TFC, Impact, or VWFC academies would count as domestic players across MLS.

Edited August 29, 2017 by saladroit

[shermanator]

8 hours ago, saladroit said:

Osorio would count as an international? I thought that he would fit the Canadian domestic rule in MLS, given that he's a homegrown player for TFC, and (IIRC), players who were developed at TFC, Impact, or VWFC academies would count as domestic players across MLS.

Osorio does not meet the criteria for homegrown criteria as he did not join the TFC academy until he was 20, a few months before he signed a first team deal in 2013. A large portion of his development was alongside Cavallini with Nacional in Uruguay.

Also, of the 9 Canadians MLS grandfathered as domestic league wide, two of them (Carducci and Roberts) are no longer in the league and one of them (Tabla) likely does not want to play for Canada.

[Yohan]

11 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

We disagree, to some extent. But the salaries you stated are grossly inaccurate.

Every team has anomalies in pay. But to me our clubs overpay the locals, especially when signing them to a homegrown contract.

TFC: @shermanator just said osorio's on a reported $250k... that's too much (note: MLS PA reports guaranteed 200K). Morgan has barely played for a few years, and tbh on a US team a 2nd/3rd string left back doesn't make over 100k. Chapman makes significantly more than Bono at 108k. And how Q wasn't on the minimum is beyond me...

Vancouver: Your use of Tiebert is another great example for me - he's been around, but in a salary cap league a bit player making over $100k is not the norm. Adekugbe isn't on 65k, but 80k - why? What did he do to deserve this? Bustos is not on the minimum... Edgar's 183k is slightly excessive, but I'll give that a pass.

Montreal: Table is on 79k - that's a starvation wage? Shome is making 128k. Lefevre is on 105k - justify that! Crepeau is on 79K, again does he justify over the minimum? 

Note: Minimum reserve salary looks to be 54K now, and minimum senior 65k. Not the starvation days of 12k a year anymore by any means.

Optics...

Osorio was a starter when his contract was bumped to 150k ish in 2014, looks like he's getting a bump every year since, and his option got picked up at the end of last season. Not uncommon for a player to get a bump in wages every year.

200k is fair for most MLS starters of Osorio's calibre IMO. Delgado just happened to develop way more this season and took over the 8 position from Osorio.

I don't think Osorio being an international for US teams is that much of a hinderance. A lot of teams don't use all of their int spots, and teams can trade for an int spot if they really want a player.

[C2SKI]

11 hours ago, BCM1555362349 said:

Adekugbe isn't on 65k, but 80k - why? What did he do to deserve this? 

I think you're harsh on Adekugbe. When fit he's a pretty decent player, with potential to grow. He's likely a starter for Canada going forward, and he has European interest. I think he's out the door for nothing if they offer him the minimum.

[harrycoyster]

43 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

I think you're harsh on Adekugbe. When fit he's a pretty decent player, with potential to grow. He's likely a starter for Canada going forward, and he has European interest. I think he's out the door for nothing if they offer him the minimum.

Still, MLS doesn't pay fullbacks...you can't justify paying more than minimum to a back-up. Nick Lima is on 60k, Ethan White is on 65k, Joevin Jones is on 80k, Matt Polster is on 90k and Kemar Lawernce is on 100k. They are all above average MLS fullbacks who start week in week out. The fact that we have De Jong on 140k and Adekugbe on 80k in insane. They have a combined 10 starts in MLS since 2015. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Bison44]

BCM.  I was quoting the base salaries, the real number is sometimes 10-30g more, but for many its exactly the same, especially guys on the bottom end of the bay scale.  That isnt grossly inaccurate.  And starvation wages are in my mind the level when a young player says "screw this" and gets a regular job and comes out farther ahead.  50-80g is not much of a incentive to stick around, a young guy could be in school and making himself a nice life as a doctor or accountant.  

I'm not sure how things work in your world but sometimes when you have a young player for years up through the academy and you see potential and you want to keep him you reward him with a contract.  I'm sure 15-20 grand more than what you think  he should be getting doesnt cause the owner to lose a lot of sleep.  Sometimes you are rewarded sometimes not.  But if you want to look at overpriced players there are way more internationals getting huge salaries than have not panned out.  And we are not talking about a guy getting 100g and you think he should be getting 80.  Shave 100g off Mancuso and Donadel and you can overpay every young CDN on the impact.   And even for guys who do play well, if you pay Bradley 5.9mil instead of 6.5 and you pay the entire salary of roster spots 21-30 for TFC.  You are stepping over dollars to pick up nickels.  

[C2SKI]

46 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Still, MLS doesn't pay fullbacks...you can't justify paying more than minimum to a back-up. Nick Lima is on 60k, Ethan White is on 65k, Joevin Jones is on 80k, Matt Polster is on 90k and Kemar Lawernce is on 100k. They are all above average MLS fullbacks who start week in week out. The fact that we have De Jong on 140k and Adekugbe on 80k in insane. They have a combined 10 starts in MLS since 2015. 

Adekugbe had been on loan for 2 seasons. Of course he hasn't been making starts. Maybe that's poor cap management, but I still don't think he's being overpaid for what he offers as a player.

[Obinna]

55 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Still, MLS doesn't pay fullbacks...you can't justify paying more than minimum to a back-up. Nick Lima is on 60k, Ethan White is on 65k, Joevin Jones is on 80k, Matt Polster is on 90k and Kemar Lawernce is on 100k. They are all above average MLS fullbacks who start week in week out. The fact that we have De Jong on 140k and Adekugbe on 80k in insane. They have a combined 10 starts in MLS since 2015. 

All the fullbacks you mentioned are all underpaid and that will eventually change. It is partly because they are young and Jones and Lawernce came from low paying Caribbean leagues, which worked against them in negotiating their contracts, clearly.

De Jong came to NA from the Bundesliga, big difference. He's played his way out of money since, but he came into the system at a much higher and advantageous position.

Adekugbe has Jones and Lawrence potential so the salary for him is about right.

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Still, MLS doesn't pay fullbacks...you can't justify paying more than minimum to a back-up. Nick Lima is on 60k, Ethan White is on 65k, Joevin Jones is on 80k, Matt Polster is on 90k and Kemar Lawernce is on 100k. They are all above average MLS fullbacks who start week in week out. The fact that we have De Jong on 140k and Adekugbe on 80k in insane. They have a combined 10 starts in MLS since 2015. 

Well, if you want to compare Adekugbe to a list of cherry picked fullbacks that have outperformed their (mostly entry level) MLS deals, then sure, he looks overpaid. But if you were to compare him to other fullbacks around the league, the argument doesn't hold as much water.

Consider Harvey (180K), Beitashour (250K), Williams (175K), Mattarita (175K), Cole (350K), Farrell (183K), Rogers (225K), Morrow (210K) or Beasley (316K) in your list and Adkeugbe's salary doesn't look so "insane". More accurately, it looks like a 5th year MLS player who has gotten some small pay bumps each year following his entry level deal.

De Jong on the other hand, that's likely an overpayment on what he's brought to the table.

Edited August 29, 2017 by shermanator

[harrycoyster]

9 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Well, if you want to compare Adekugbe to a list of cherry picked fullbacks that have outperformed their (mostly entry level) MLS deals, then sure, he looks overpaid. But if you were to compare him to other fullbacks around the league, the argument doesn't hold as much water.

Consider Harvey (180K), Beitashour (250K), Williams (175K), Mattarita (175K), Cole (350K), Farrell (183K), Rogers (225K), Morrow (210K) or Beasley (316K) in your list and Adkeugbe's salary doesn't look so "insane".

All of those players have years upon years of professional experience. I'd say 80k for Adkeugbe is still crazy given you can get Morrow for 210k or Mattarita for 175k. 

[shermanator]

To try and get this back on track...

 

[A_Gagne]

Tough call... I think most players would take first off the bench for a championship contending team then week-in-week-out starter for an average/below average team. 

If he wanted to move, I don't think his international status or salary would be a problem. If he moved it would be in the expectation (from him and his new club) that he'd be competing for, if not starting. 200K for a starting midfielder is reasonable value for money, and I feel like clubs don't usually think twice about expending an international spot on a starter... it's the entry level guys that get screwed on that one.

[Gian-Luca]

Some discussion of Osorio & Chapman going on off-season loans here:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/08/31/talented-canadian-trio-aiming-break-through-stacked-toronto-fc-team

 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

That sounds great... But with TFC they won't get much of an off season. It will still help to get some playing time. What is really going to help is the Champions league next season. Osorio, Chapman, Edwards, Ricketts, and even Morgan and Hamilton will all get to play next year with the extra games. Between both the Voyaguer's Cup and the Champions league that will be 10+ games.

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

5 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

That sounds great... But with TFC they won't get much of an off season. It will still help to get some playing time. What is really going to help is the Champions league next season. Osorio, Chapman, Edwards, Ricketts, and even Morgan and Hamilton will all get to play next year with the extra games. Between both the Voyaguer's Cup and the Champions league that could be 10+ games.

 

[Keegan]

The new CCL format kind of sucks for the TFC young guys. Now every game is do or die, they won't get chances they would in group stage matches.  I guess the plus side is that they'll probably get more mls minutes early in the season.

[shermanator]

So, if Osorio were to get an offseason loan, what league would be a decent level where he could start consistently? Danish League maybe?

[Keegan]

9 minutes ago, shermanator said:

So, if Osorio were to get an offseason loan, what league would be a decent level where he could start consistently? Danish League maybe?

Yea around that level.. maybe Colombia with his roots there.  Would be a nice professional/life experience.