The Importance of Jr. Hoilett

[Tuscan]

Certainly hope his career solidifies and he finds a more positive place to play. Not sure QPR was really providing that for him. Would be great to see him help Cardiff get back to the PL.

[jpg75]

Cardiff are flirtingly close to the relegation zone and have been pissing away results lately. This article suggests about half the starters could be dropped, but Jr. is not among them.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/cardiff-city-stars-danger-axe-12342840

Also saw some headlines for possible transfer targets, a new goalkeeper is apparently a priority.

[Ruffian]

Hoilett looks like he will stay in Cardiff

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/junior-hoilett-set-extend-cardiff-12653904

Good details about his reasons for waiting for so long to sign. It may not have been because he was holding out for the best $.

[toontownman]

No takers for twice my regular wage? Not even the MLS?  Still getting starting minutes at Cardiff? If not i still get the dollar..Tell Warnock I love the club and want to stay. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

53 minutes ago, toontownman said:

No takers for twice my regular wage? Not even the MLS?  Still getting starting minutes at Cardiff? If not i still get the dollar..Tell Warnock I love the club and want to stay. 

I think the article made a lot more sense than your cynicism about it. True, Junior is coming off big expectations, also in terms of career, salary. And has been forced to lower them. But the team has done great since he's been there, being in a solid Championship side and thriving, probably his best 4 months in years--it's not a bad argument for saying nice things in return.

Junior is still young. I would not be surprised if we saw him in Premiership before the end of his career.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[shermanator]

Junior Hoilett set to extend @Tuscan AMIRITE?

[Obinna]

38 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Neil Warnock is a real players' manager but if somebody else had offered substantially higher wages does anybody doubt that Hoilett would have taken it?

Of course, if ridiculous money was thrown at him, yes he may have taken it, but that's true of most players, isn't it?

After his QPR experience of being in and out of the team, I think he's looking for the right situation. That's congruent with him choosing the right coach in Neil Warnock to play under. 

 

 

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Well, here's how I think it played out: he sat on the sidelines waiting for the kind of ridiculous money that QPR paid him and that would never be forthcoming. Then he got the chance to play for Warnock again for the same kind of money that others were offering and he realized that was the best he was going to do financially, so he took it.

If somebody else had offered him more than Cardiff I have no doubt he would have taken it. It would not have needed to be the kind of ridiculous money he was on at QPR. And fair play to him.

Yeah totally possible. The main thing is that he's playing and appears to understand the value of playing for a manager who trusts him.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think most here are underestimating the risk he took going to Cardiff, which was sitting at or just in relegation zone when he arrived and were very vulnerable. They had two wins and eight points after 11 matches when he signed.

Going to a team that is one of the financially weaker sides in the division (maybe 3-4 have a lower budget I think), in a poor spot in the table, with real chances of relegating, so under pressure for results, is a risk. If it does not work out you are a player on a team not good enough for Championship, your clause probably  says if they drop to League One they won't honour your salary in case of continuing the following year. Your value drops terribly and next season you are going to have problems finding a Championship contract.

Since he got there they have 35 points in 22 matches.

[toontownman]

I just hope he has learned from his QPR move where he had the world at his feet but picked money over progress.  His stock has fallen so far. My cynicism comes from his previous waiting for big money moves and grass is greener attitude waiting, including the national team. 

The move was in the very least 50/50 risk or reward. I think it was as safe move as he could probably make.

- knows the manager, knows he will start

- gets to put himself in the shop window in the championship rather than stock falling further unattached.

- low expectation at the club given its position. If they do go down he isn't going to be held responsible.

- will have a relegation release clause 

There is a reason he is where he is at this point of his career and it's not due to ability. He seems like his head has been in a better place since joining the national set up. I hope he just gets his head down and shows it on the pitch. 

[rob.notenboom]

Remember when this was one of the threads on the board with the most posts? Oh the days. 

[Bertuzzi44]

Just curious, when Hoilett was a highly hyped youngster who had just scored 7 goals in 34 Premier League appearances for Blackburn, his transfer fee to QPR must have been pretty large. Perhaps the largest ever paid for a Canadian? Does anyone know?

[Gordon]

Hoilett moved for free. Because of young age there was a tribunal fee involved but not a record. I think £4 or 5 millions

[nolando]

57 minutes ago, Bertuzzi44 said:

Just curious, when Hoilett was a highly hyped youngster who had just scored 7 goals in 34 Premier League appearances for Blackburn, his transfer fee to QPR must have been pretty large. Perhaps the largest ever paid for a Canadian? Does anyone know?

I put this thread together years ago -

 

Thanks for the reminder to add Junior. I'll have to have another look at the recent "converters" like Arfield, Vittoria et  al to see if any other names/numbers need to be added.

[nolando]

4 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Although, he was not a Canadian International at the time of the transfer...

A technicality that, while I appreciate the basic sentiment, doesn't mean anything to me. Once they are officially a MNT player they can go on the list in my mind.

[toontownman]

5 hours ago, dsqpr said:

On what basis do you think he picked money over progress? At the time Blackburn had just been relegated and this was a move to stay in the Premier League -- where he had been playing quite well. There was no reason to believe he was sacrificing progress; on the contrary, from a progress standpoint it looked like a good move for him at the time.

Seems like a long while ago now. It's not like I was privy to anything other than what was reported which should be taken with a pinch of salt too. Not wanting to turn this into a witch hunt. But there is scepticism for sure not just from myself.

- He refused to negotiate a contract renewal with Blackburn long before they were in relegation trouble. Not that I begrudge him leaving Blackburn, I've been to Blackburn. He was also on the form of his career that season and had attracted lots of other clubs attentions.

- He had a lot of options, pretty much every premier league side in the top half were linked with him and Galatasaray, bayern and a move to borussia mönchengladbach fell through i thought reportedly due to money. Newcastle, Sunderland and Spurs were all heavily after him where he would have got minutes but he turned them down for a newly minted relegation team in QPR. That is my main gripe, especially as my team was one of the teams he turned down for more money. Again I don't blame him for going for the big money but I don't think it was the best move for his professional progression. Maybe it's as much sour grapes on my part

- all conjecture but moving on a bosman would have also given him and his agent a much bigger sign on bonus and kept his loyalty from blackburn bonus intact. I'm sure Blackburn preferred to sell him that January to get something for him.  He had already indicated he wouldn't sign a new contract by then. 

Always thought he was a special player but badly misguided by those close. I hope he gets back on track to where he should be not where he is.  Still think it all started with the end of his Blackburn tenure. 

*I'm sure there are people here that know alot more or closer to the reported truth.

Edited February 26, 2017 by toontownman

[Grizzly]

I think it is hard to criticize club moves like this in retrospect. No player can really know in advance whether they will play or be a player the coach likes or not unless they are going somewhere totally unrealistic that they will get playing time like Chelsea and QPR is a long way from Chelsea. If he had signed with Monchengladbach or Galatasaray we could be having the same conversation today and saying he should have signed with QPR. If there is anything to fault him on in retrospect, it seems like he got a bit complacent after signing the big contract with QPR and was not always in top shape nor mentally committed like he should have been. But that happens pretty regularly to young hyped players who sign big money contracts and think they are stars before they have accomplished much. The important thing is that the player learns from that and gets back on track which is what Hoilett seems to have done in the last 2 years. 

[toontownman]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Well, I don't pretend to have any inside information, but with that said:

Hoilett DID move to QPR on a "Bosman" transfer. His contract with Blackburn had expired and the only reason there was a fee is because he was under 24 years old.

There is the world of difference between having discussions with a club and actually making a deal. And there is the world of difference between the press reporting that a player is linked with a club and the player actually talking to the club. I do not remember reports of an actual OFFER being made by ANY of the host of teams you mention.

As for his choice of QPR, I think it would be fair to assume he would get MORE playing time with a newly promoted team rather than an established team. Of course there are other advantages to choosing an established Premier League team, if such a team had actually made an offer, but at the time QPR were spending like crazy and there was every reason to believe they would cement their position in the division. Hindsight is 20-20 but at the time it seemed like a good move, both developmentally and financially.

Both player and agent pick up a nice packet signing for a club after a bosman. Like you say being under 24 they did get a fee through tribunal. He preferred to stay in England in 2012 but he was on the verge of moving to Germany with borussia mönchengladbach. 

The agent would have sounded out interest from the clubs and vice versa, especially dictating wages. If his wages demands were unrealistic it wouldnt have ever materialised beyond enquiry. We will never know which clubs had those conversations as much as we could pick out the truths from the press. 

Of the sides "linked" both Spurs and Newcastle in England were both in the market for a starting LW. He would have got minutes at both for sure. Tbf he would probably do a better job that Sissoko for Spurs today! 

I agree of course with hindsight and QPR wasnt that unattractive, they were at least as ambitious as they were frivolous. I don't remember anyone saying it was a good career move at the time though but maybe that was fans of clubs that wanted him like myselg. At best it was baffling given how high his stock was. It was expected he would join a top 6 team.

I wouldn't necessarily soley blame hoilett for complacency at QPR grizzly, it was a toxic culture there of players picking up a good pay day and too many caring about the performances on the pitch.  Bosingwa was possibly the best or worst example of the wreckless buying policy they had at the time.

 

[Grizzly]

8 minutes ago, toontownman said:

I wouldn't necessarily soley blame hoilett for complacency at QPR grizzly, it was a toxic culture there of players picking up a good pay day and too many caring about the performances on the pitch.  Bosingwa was possibly the best or worst example of the wreckless buying policy they had at the time.

It is always better to be in a good atmosphere especially for a young player but at the same time you are playing on a Premiership team in probably the best league in the world so if some other guys are slacking off that should be more incentive for you be self disciplined and motivated and play well and be a regular starter. So I wouldn't blame the atmosphere that much. Still these athletes are guys who are often too young and immature to handle the money and fame properly and often when they are more mature they are no longer at an age where they are at their physical prime. Who knows how you or I would have behaved either if we were earning a million a year at 21 years old. In most professions you hit your prime mid 40s or early 50s while for athletes it is mid 20s. So I don't think we should blame the player that much either or rue lost potential. He had a couple of poor years but seems to be back on track and is still only 26. I am not sure it serves much purpose to speculate about what could have been.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 25/02/2017 at 4:54 PM, toontownman said:

I just hope he has learned from his QPR move where he had the world at his feet but picked money over progress.  His stock has fallen so far. My cynicism comes from his previous waiting for big money moves and grass is greener attitude waiting, including the national team. 

The move was in the very least 50/50 risk or reward. I think it was as safe move as he could probably make.

- knows the manager, knows he will start

- gets to put himself in the shop window in the championship rather than stock falling further unattached.

- low expectation at the club given its position. If they do go down he isn't going to be held responsible.

- will have a relegation release clause 

There is a reason he is where he is at this point of his career and it's not due to ability. He seems like his head has been in a better place since joining the national set up. I hope he just gets his head down and shows it on the pitch. 

Sorry for me that was not a safe move nor in football even close to 50/50 so stop being so tendentious.  It was a big risk and maybe even a bit desperate on his part. I thought when they announced it well helluva club i mean I'm ni Championship expert but come on...Cardiff City has to be relegation fodder most years.  Even next.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I mean. ..where he is now is the weakest club he has seen or even been associated with since he was in junior high.

Same with Warnock if I'm not mistaken. 

[Obinna]

19 hours ago, toontownman said:

 

I wouldn't necessarily soley blame hoilett for complacency at QPR grizzly, it was a toxic culture there of players picking up a good pay day and too many caring about the performances on the pitch.  Bosingwa was possibly the best or worst example of the wreckless buying policy they had at the time.

 

Toxic culture.

This is the main issue I have with Hoilett choosing to go to QPR. 

When you have a small club that is ambitious throwing money around, it can go wrong. Newcastle or Spurs were and are established squads. I don't know if there was ever an offer but I would have preferred a club like this, or even a team like Galatasaray, which could provide European football. That would have likely presented more opportunities for minutes as well.

Anyhow, one could never know for sure how it would play out, but when you saw how drastic the overhaul was, you knew it wasn't a slow build (like Manchester City was) and thus more risky.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Obinna

[Obinna]

7 hours ago, dsqpr said:

The ridiculous sums of money that QPR threw around most certainly did result in a toxic culture for a while -- many grossly overpaid passengers who were only there for a final pay day. But that toxic culture had not materialized when Hoilett signed. And it was far from inevitable; both Chelsea and Manchester City have bought Premier League success.

Hindsight is always 20-20.

This is all true but I would add that Manchester City bought their success slowly and QPR were very hasty in how many players they brought in. Or at least that's my memory of how it went down.

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

This is all true but I would add that Manchester City bought their success slowly and QPR were very hasty in how many players they brought in. Or at least that's my memory of how it went down.

Manchester City's success might have taken a few years to come to them, but the spending started right away.

From their wikipedia page:
"Then, in August 2008, the club was purchased by the Abu Dhabi United Group. The takeover was immediately followed by a flurry of bids for high-profile players; the club broke the British transfer record by signing Brazilian international Robinho from Real Madrid for £32.5 million. Performances were not a huge improvement on the previous season despite the influx of money however, with the team finishing tenth, although they did well to reach the quarter-finals of the UEFA Cup. During the summer of 2009, the club took transfer spending to an unprecedented level, with an outlay of over £100 million on players Gareth Barry, Roque Santa Cruz, Kolo Touré, Emmanuel Adebayor, Carlos Tevez and Joleon Lescott."

My thoughts at the time QPR was spending all that money and signing Hoilett was that they weren't just trying to stay in the Premier League, they were trying to get into Europe. I honestly thought they had a shot at it back then.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, dsqpr said:

Neil Warnock's previous club was Rotherham and with all due respect to the Millers, Cardiff > Rotherham.

I'm no fan of Cardiff City but I think recent posts are greatly underestimating them. Although they are struggling this season I think of them as a decent Championship team who could get promoted, and they have some money behind them. I don't think this was a bad move for Hoilett but of course I don't know what other offers were on the table. I don't think his time at QPR did him any favours so I doubt anybody was queueing around the block to sign him.

Warnock is a top notch manager at this level (performed a minor miracle saving Rotherham last season) and I fully expect Cardiff to improve. And for my money Hoilett has been that rarest of rare Canadian internationals in that he has played far better for Canada than he has for his club. I would not be surprised to see Warnock start to draw those kinds of performances from him for Cardiff.

Ok, totally agree, Rotherham is a lower level than Cardiff City, no doubt. Am I really wrong about Cardiff City though, I just assumed they were in the bottom quarter of the Championship in terms of budget, isn't that so?