Match Thread: FIFA U-17 World Cup: Group B - Matchday 3 - Canada v Mali - November 16, 2023 - 4am ET / 1am PT (4pm local time)

[El Hombre]

19 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

This is less on the CSA and more of an indictment of the state of the game at the grassroots and academy levels.  Our overall game has improved; the competitions has grown at a faster rate. 

I don't understand this.  We have had decidedly mediocre (to put it lightly) results with our youth teams over the last 10 to 12 years but our senior team has had unparalleled success with the same cohort of youth.  If our grassroots were failing we should be seeing it across all age groups.  

The main failing I see with the grassroots/academy is the focus on winning rather than skill development.  I agree they need help on that end, but we're still turning out good players.

[Stoppage Time]

18 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

This is less on the CSA and more of an indictment of the state of the game at the grassroots and academy levels.  Our overall game has improved; the competitions has grown at a faster rate. 

Is it not the job of the CSA and of the provincial associations to develop coaching technique and philosophy so players can first develop skills when they are younger and a head for how to play the game when they are older? Youth clubs, yes, are often desperate for volunteer coaches and well-intentioned dads and moms step up. Good on them, but I wonder how much clubs can and do support them with basic structure and guidance. There is something missing for sure in Canadian youth soccer and has been for decades.

And, there is something missing in youth culture wherein kids like to spend hours per day on cell phones playing FIFA games rather than actually kicking a ball around with their buddies and developing skills in a fun way. There are lots of problems and they persist.

[Corazon]

I believe there are many issues at play here but I do think we are never adequately prepared for these tournaments as well.  In years past, TFC academies have gone to the US and dominated many of the American academies.  I don't know as much about the recent TFC academy programs but in years past, Toronto has had many top clubs in the MLS academy systems.  However, these have never translated to the youth international level.  Mind you the only comparisons are to other US academies and not to the rest of the world.  And, its easier for USA to pick from 40 academies to our handful.  Then add in the amount of prep the put into their youth international programs as well.

I'm still in shock that Akinola has 49 or 50 US youth international appearances.  If that doesn't tell you how far behind we are from USA, than I don't know what does.  Again, just one of many issues our program has.

[nolando]

17 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I don't understand this.  We have had decidedly mediocre (to put it lightly) results with our youth teams over the last 10 to 12 years but our senior team has had unparalleled success with the same cohort of youth.  If our grassroots were failing we should be seeing it across all age groups.  

The main failing I see with the grassroots/academy is the focus on winning rather than skill development.  I agree they need help on that end, but we're still turning out good players.

Well, the latest version of the senior men's team (going back ten years or so) is full of exceptions to rules: generational phenoms, refugees, overlooked late bloomers, players developed largely abroad or outside of the traditional channels, and genuine foreigners. Seeing TJ, our latest poster boy,  featured in the official lineup image is almost an admission of this. The senior group succeeded despite the traditional clubs and networks, not because of them.

Edited November 16, 2023 by nolando

[Ottawafan]

13 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I don't understand this.  We have had decidedly mediocre (to put it lightly) results with our youth teams over the last 10 to 12 years but our senior team has had unparalleled success with the same cohort of youth.  If our grassroots were failing we should be seeing it across all age groups.  

The main failing I see with the grassroots/academy is the focus on winning rather than skill development.  I agree they need help on that end, but we're still turning out good players.

The amount of talent in or within an hour of Toronto ( 8-10 million people ) is equal to the amount of talent in almost any major city.  Yet we produce two players per age level that we consider high enough level to be in the mix for our national squad?  Ya, the infrastructure is failing these kids and the game.

[Ottawafan]

15 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

Is it not the job of the CSA and of the provincial associations to develop coaching technique and philosophy so players can first develop skills when they are younger and a head for how to play the game when they are older? Youth clubs, yes, are often desperate for volunteer coaches and well-intentioned dads and moms step up. Good on them, but I wonder how much clubs can and do support them with basic structure and guidance. There is something missing for sure in Canadian youth soccer and has been for decades.

And, there is something missing in youth culture wherein kids like to spend hours per day on cell phones playing FIFA games rather than actually kicking a ball around with their buddies and developing skills in a fun way. There are lots of problems and they persist.

Volunteer coaches are at the U7 age level and below.  Any coach above the U8/U9 levels has been put in place by the club and have some credentials and background in coaching.  These coaches are not volunteering.  They are paid.

These are the bigger clubs in the bigger cities at least.

[El Hombre]

20 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Olivieri is terrible and should not be the coach. No argument there.

Why do you think the players are talented enough to win a game? What have they ever shown to give you that idea?

Im tired of our youth players getting a pass while we rail against coaching and the CSA. The truth is, the players have never performed ever. We’ve never seen an individual step up and dominate. We’ve never seen players do special things at any given time.

We haven’t won’t at a youth World Cup cup at any level since 2003. In Concacaf qualifying tournaments our teams constantly look terrible and don’t look like they are capable of beating the regions top tier teams.

Could it be that on top of lack of camps (which we used to have lots of in the past which never helped us win at a World Cup) and bad national team coaching, our players aren’t as good as we think they are at the youth level? Clearly, they are tactically inept in every cycle. But can anyone point out to me objectively why they should be better than any other country we face?

I don’t see it and have never seen it.

Why does anyone think our players are better than Uzbekistan’s or Mali’s players? Is there an objective reason they can point to?

 

 

Meh, not sure about that.  I think its highly dubious to equate performances at these levels with overall skill and development trajectory.  Every cohort generally produces two or three key players for the senior team regardless of how the team does overall.  Look at the 2003 team that had the most success: we got Hume, Hutch and Simpson out of that one.  Our 2017 team that got pounded by Mexico and then beat by Honduras to crash out of qualifying has St. Clair, Millar, and Miller.  The problem is that Johnston, Cornelius and Kennedy were all overlooked.  

I posted in another thread why I think the team looks the way it does so I won't repeat myself but it basically boils down to Olivieri wanting to play jazz with a bunch of third-graders that just got their first recorder.  The talent is there but it is not being harnessed properly when it counts.  This is why our players look lost and make silly mistakes in my mind.

[InglewoodJack]

32 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

Olivieri is terrible and should not be the coach. No argument there.

Why do you think the players are talented enough to win a game? What have they ever shown to give you that idea?

Im tired of our youth players getting a pass while we rail against coaching and the CSA. The truth is, the players have never performed ever. We’ve never seen an individual step up and dominate. We’ve never seen players do special things at any given time.

We haven’t won’t at a youth World Cup cup at any level since 2003. In Concacaf qualifying tournaments our teams constantly look terrible and don’t look like they are capable of beating the regions top tier teams.

Could it be that on top of lack of camps (which we used to have lots of in the past which never helped us win at a World Cup) and bad national team coaching, our players aren’t as good as we think they are at the youth level? Clearly, they are tactically inept in every cycle. But can anyone point out to me objectively why they should be better than any other country we face?

I don’t see it and have never seen it.

Why does anyone think our players are better than Uzbekistan’s or Mali’s players? Is there an objective reason they can point to?

 

 

Both Uzbekistan and Mali draw nearly their entire roster from their domestic league. I think that people don't realize just how many players Mali puts into Europe, but for Uzbekistan, few of their players leave their country, and few reach the level of a league like MLS where some of our players will end up, or beyond that if you buy the hype of a player like Tahid or I guess Tavernier. Won't claim to know how many of their players play for reserve sides vs. playing against men in the pro league, but it would shock me that their domestic leagues are so far ahead of leagues like the CPL or NextPro that our guy would cumulatively lose like 9-1 to both teams. I mean, our closest game was against Spain who should've been our worst lost just given their talent level. I only watched a bit of each game so someone can rate our players' actual talent, but that to me reads like a team who came out of the gates relatively strong and then just tanked, and that would seem to me like a case of a coach and system that can't adapt to teams and doesn't prepare their guys beyond making sure they're fit.

 

On the other hand, it's not like our roster is bursting with surefire talent; if 5 of these guys make it to Europe or even MLS, I think we'd be pleasantly surprised. But hearing from commentators that you can hear Olivieri cheer on the team like he's a sunday volunteer clapping along as the guys aimlessly chase the ball, and there's only so much you can do there.

[El Hombre]

6 minutes ago, nolando said:

Well, the latest version of the senior men's team (going back ten years or so) is full of exceptions to rules: generational phenoms, refugees, overlooked late bloomers, players developed largely abroad or outside of the traditional channels, and genuine foreigners. Seeing TJ, our latest poster boy,  featured in the official lineup image is almost an admission of this. The senior group succeeded despite the traditional clubs and networks, not because of them.

Ah.  I guess when talking about grassroots I was looking at the entire landscape and not just the traditional clubs and networks.  These kids all learned to play somewhere in Canada was my main point.

Fully agree that improvements could be made in this area but I don't see it regressing which was what I inferred from the original post.

I think there are some keys to your list though: fewer of our senior team players are developed abroad for example, which is a good sign for me.  Also the idea of overlooked late-bloomers is an epidemic here which I place directly on the CSA for their selection.  Too often we go for the big athlete rather than the soccer player.  I mean, college programs didn't overlook Johnston or Buchanan or Laryea.

[red card]

Tavernier had his best spell after coming in as a sub late in the first half for Iginobaro. But he messed up his 2 good chances. Chukwu scored but remained a vulernability on the back line.

In watching Mali play the other 2 matches, they are too quick mentally & physically for Canada. And as we have seen through the generations, nearly every other country is more comfortable with the ball.

[Ottawafan]

54 minutes ago, Soccerpro2 said:

How many CMNT players are we producing?

How many have appeared on the scene since the World Cup?

The truth is, we currently aren’t really producing any in this country.

We can always produce players that can play on the NT.  What level are they?

Seemingly Canada can find the odd player like Kone and some kids who are coming up thru CPL ( although with the lack of games put on by the CSA we haven't had much of a chance to try them on ).  But not enough.

[Free kick]

6 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

This is less on the CSA and more of an indictment of the state of the game at the grassroots and academy levels. 

Yes, I would say its the grassroots.  There are some terrific athletes in canada.  And we are seeing more and more of them in a multitude of sports whereby we are getting better and better and reaching new heights.  In the last 12 mos,  We won the Davis  cup and Fed cup.  Unthinkable 10 years ago. 
 

Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are just not in the same league as Canada when it comes to sports at the global level.   Except for soccer.  You can check the various world rankings of canada in a wide range of all other sports as well as things like Olympics and Pan am games
 

so we are producing talented athletes,  its just that they are choosing other sports instead if soccer

Edited November 16, 2023 by Free kick

[red card]

31 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Ah.  I guess when talking about grassroots I was looking at the entire landscape and not just the traditional clubs and networks.  These kids all learned to play somewhere in Canada was my main point.

Fully agree that improvements could be made in this area but I don't see it regressing which was what I inferred from the original post.

I think there are some keys to your list though: fewer of our senior team players are developed abroad for example, which is a good sign for me.  Also the idea of overlooked late-bloomers is an epidemic here which I place directly on the CSA for their selection.  Too often we go for the big athlete rather than the soccer player.  I mean, college programs didn't overlook Johnston or Buchanan or Laryea.

I posted in Are We a Soccer Nation thread about 2 recent US soccer podcast/youtube that said the youth development issue starts at u5. It does get better above u14 as then, the US system is deemed ok.

Similar issues apply in Canada but unlike the US, we don't have enough academies to catch up somewhat or rely upon a pool of duals. Canadian kids aren't getting a soccer ball at 3. Most don't have parents who grew up loving the sport. Canadian kids play bumblebee type soccer at 6 while Brazilian kids at the same age play with some game flow. Canadian kids don't have some comfort with the ball by age 10. 

The culture puts kids into soccer even though parents don’t particularly like or don’t know soccer. Can kids from non-soccer loving families be able to play pick up soccer by 7. Can they rondo by 10?

Too much overcoaching by people who don't know much about the sport. Instead of developing players, they make the kids fall out of love for the game due to overcoaching or poor coaching despite good intentions. 

Players arrive at u13 MLS academies far behind other countries. Youth systems elsewhere compete for best players instead of who can pay. The business model is wrong. Completely useless for developing pro players or making the national team better. Without pro/rel, there aren't business incerntives to fix it. 

 

 

[El Hombre]

5 minutes ago, red card said:

Too much overcoaching by people who don't know much about the sport. Instead of developing players, they make the kids fall out of love for the game due to overcoaching or poor coaching despite good intentions. 

Now that you mention it, you might be right.

However, just as an anecdote, I ran into almost the opposite with my daughter's team this summer: the volunteer coach was a guy who obviously played the game (maybe even at a high level) and seemed to know his way around a pitch.  But every practice he'd have them practice stepovers for at least 5 minutes.  That in itself isn't the worst except when you take into account the fact that none of them knew what to do at kick-off (which way can the ball go, what should be done here, etc.).  Maybe leave the stepovers until after they've learned how to take a throw-in or string two passes together.

So who is responsible for implementing a common instructional guide or pathway to soccer development?  Do we already have something like this in place?  I'm too tired to go looking through the other threads.

[Northvansteve]

One step forward, two steps back? Sure feels that way. What a disappointment. Poor player selection, poor preparation, poor coaching, poor performance. Team looked utterly lost and incapable of competing. Total failure of whatever plan Canada Soccer had for this cohort of players.  

[Ottawafan]

34 minutes ago, red card said:

I posted in Are We a Soccer Nation thread about 2 recent US soccer podcast/youtube that said the youth development issue starts at u5. It does get better above u14 as then, the US system is deemed ok.

Similar issues apply in Canada but unlike the US, we don't have enough academies to catch up somewhat or rely upon a pool of duals. Canadian kids aren't getting a soccer ball at 3. Most don't have parents who grew up loving the sport. Canadian kids play bumblebee type soccer at 6 while Brazilian kids at the same age play with some game flow. Canadian kids don't have some comfort with the ball by age 10. 

The culture puts kids into soccer even though parents don’t particularly like or don’t know soccer. Can kids from non-soccer loving families be able to play pick up soccer by 7. Can they rondo by 10?

Too much overcoaching by people who don't know much about the sport. Instead of developing players, they make the kids fall out of love for the game due to overcoaching or poor coaching despite good intentions. 

Players arrive at u13 MLS academies far behind other countries. Youth systems elsewhere compete for best players instead of who can pay. The business model is wrong. Completely useless for developing pro players or making the national team better. Without pro/rel, there aren't business incerntives to fix it. 

 

 

Clubs are a business who try and fit development into their business model.

It's funny as my son is getting into higher level training this winter and listening to the parents on the sidelines.  Nothing has changed in the last 30 years.  

[Ottawafan]

23 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Now that you mention it, you might be right.

However, just as an anecdote, I ran into almost the opposite with my daughter's team this summer: the volunteer coach was a guy who obviously played the game (maybe even at a high level) and seemed to know his way around a pitch.  But every practice he'd have them practice stepovers for at least 5 minutes.  That in itself isn't the worst except when you take into account the fact that none of them knew what to do at kick-off (which way can the ball go, what should be done here, etc.).  Maybe leave the stepovers until after they've learned how to take a throw-in or string two passes together.

So who is responsible for implementing a common instructional guide or pathway to soccer development?  Do we already have something like this in place?  I'm too tired to go looking through the other threads.

Should be the club.  How old is your daughter?

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Corazon said:

In years past, TFC academies have gone to the US and dominated many of the American academies.  I don't know as much about the recent TFC academy programs but in years past, Toronto has had many top clubs in the MLS academy systems.

Toronto ranks somewhere in the 5-7 range in terms of MLS academy purely in terms of success at the major events. Montreal is probably around 10 and Vancouver is average.

An all-star team of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver is likely to beat any three American academies - but they have 26 MLS academies. They also have 8-10 non-MLS academies with MLS academy levels of output and more than 100 academies that supplement MLS academies post-u15. We only really have Sigma in that first group and a few in the second group - that's an issue.

[Corazon]

Let's be completely honest with ourselves here.  I know qualification seems like a long time ago but Puerto Rico did us a huge favour as well.  They played the game of their life and with a lot of luck, were able to beat Costa Rica in a shootout in the round of 16, leading to a favourable matchup for us in the quarter finals against them.  Costa Rica has a much better youth program than Canada and beats Puerto Rico 9 times out of 10 and likely beats us at a similar rate as well.  Had Costa Rica not been beaten in a monumental upset, we likely lose to Costa Rica in the quarter finals and never even qualify to this tournament.

Not qualifying is an even bigger embarrassment, but realistically, we got very lucky in our draw as well.  But we did qualify and we still put forth the bare minimum in preparation.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Corazon

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, red card said:

... Can kids from non-soccer loving families be able to play pick up soccer by 7. Can they rondo by 10? ...

Am I wrong in thinking that the vast majority of today's national team players are not from that sort of background and are the kids from recent immigrant backgrounds that would have been playing in a futsal league in a school gym in the winter months ten to twenty years ago that might not even have been registered with the local district association rather than the kids from better off backgrounds that would have been playing hockey in the winter and soccer in the summer? The vast majority of suburban youth soccer registrations are a complete irrelevance where development for the men's national team is concerned and are basically a glorified baby sitting service.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I know we are behind other countries but I thought we would have some signs of progress with the gradual professionalization of the game here.

But the CPL doesn't have academies, so it's not really a help for the u17 program. I would think it would have more of an impact on the u20 program, with more players in the 18/19 age range getting professional playing time. 

[Soccerpro2]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

But the CPL doesn't have academies, so it's not really a help for the u17 program. I would think it would have more of an impact on the u20 program, with more players in the 18/19 age range getting professional playing time. 

"super gradual professionalization of the game here" is more like it. Every other country is continuing to improve, hence our lack of improvement at youth levels despite getting 8 CPL clubs. It's better than what we had before but doesnt really move the needle.

[BearcatSA]

Did see this match.  The Mali players looked quicker and stronger than our guys.

[Kent]

6 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Volunteer coaches are at the U7 age level and below.  Any coach above the U8/U9 levels has been put in place by the club and have some credentials and background in coaching.  These coaches are not volunteering.  They are paid.

These are the bigger clubs in the bigger cities at least.

You must be talking about at the rep level. I know at the club my kids play houseleague the coaching education is very much like "Here's the list of the player's names, we do kick ins instead of throw ins. Have a good year."

[dyslexic nam]

6 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

This is less on the CSA and more of an indictment of the state of the game at the grassroots and academy levels.  Our overall game has improved; the competitions has grown at a faster rate. 

I don’t want to start a big rehash of old debates, but if it is the responsibilities of pro teams and academies to develop skilled and tactically astute players, and the role of the CSA is to put in place the soccer superstructure that fosters the growth of the game in this country, having the CSA support a youth-targeting national domestic league of local pro teams seems like arguably the most important thing they could possibly do.  Yes, those teams will need to develop functional academies for this vision to come to fruition, but it seems like the existence of such a league is the fundamental precondition to move the markers in our youth program.  Put another way, if not CPL, then what would meet this need?