Match Thread: FIFA U-17 World Cup: Group B - Matchday 3 - Canada v Mali - November 16, 2023 - 4am ET / 1am PT (4pm local time)

[Ottawafan]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

You must be talking about at the rep level. I know at the club my kids play houseleague the coaching education is very much like "Here's the list of the player's names, we do kick ins instead of throw ins. Have a good year."

Rep yes. 

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Now that you mention it, you might be right.

However, just as an anecdote, I ran into almost the opposite with my daughter's team this summer: the volunteer coach was a guy who obviously played the game (maybe even at a high level) and seemed to know his way around a pitch.  But every practice he'd have them practice stepovers for at least 5 minutes.  That in itself isn't the worst except when you take into account the fact that none of them knew what to do at kick-off (which way can the ball go, what should be done here, etc.).  Maybe leave the stepovers until after they've learned how to take a throw-in or string two passes together.

So who is responsible for implementing a common instructional guide or pathway to soccer development?  Do we already have something like this in place?  I'm too tired to go looking through the other threads.

At least where I live, a major factor is the absence of kids that regularly watch elite-level soccer.   I have coached a fluctuating group of kids up through the years as my son advances through the age divisions and literally one kid watched soccer consistently.  That is out of the probably 40 kids that have rotated in and out of his team.  One of them watched footy.  Hell, they weren’t even interested in watching us at the WC   

Obviously that changes at elite levels as you encounter more and more truly dedicated kids, but at a grassroots level the base of the pyramid of knowledgeable youth players is staggeringly low.   Again, at least where I live   

Contrast with hockey.  Kids idolize Connor McBedard, watch elite players weekly in the NHL, and just generally understand how the game is played on a tactical level.  Cycling the puck, forechecking, breaking the trap, dump and chase, etc - kids see this stuff constantly while watching the best players in the world and then they learn how to execute it during drills.  Contrast with youth soccer where you have U15 players who are still being signed up to stay in shape for hockey during the off season, don’t know what an indirect free kick is, or don’t understand how to move off the ball in support of a player.   It is night and day compared to the hockey IQ that pervades this country - and the footy IQ that is pervasive in other countries.  

That is why I don’t think there are any magic bullets to this issue.  There may be some shortcuts to quick gains (like CPL academies that could work with local associations earlier and more deeply) but there is no one thing that will solve our youth issue in the short term.  An entire culture has to evolve around this game.   


 

[El Hombre]

36 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

At least where I live, a major factor is the absence of kids that regularly watch elite-level soccer.   I have coached a fluctuating group of kids up through the years as my son advances through the age divisions and literally one kid watched soccer consistently.  That is out of the probably 40 kids that have rotated in and out of his team.  One of them watched footy.  Hell, they weren’t even interested in watching us at the WC   

Obviously that changes at elite levels as you encounter more and more truly dedicated kids, but at a grassroots level the base of the pyramid of knowledgeable youth players is staggeringly low.   Again, at least where I live   

Contrast with hockey.  Kids idolize Connor McBedard, watch elite players weekly in the NHL, and just generally understand how the game is played on a tactical level.  Cycling the puck, forechecking, breaking the trap, dump and chase, etc - kids see this stuff constantly while watching the best players in the world and then they learn how to execute it during drills.  Contrast with youth soccer where you have U15 players who are still being signed up to stay in shape for hockey during the off season, don’t know what an indirect free kick is, or don’t understand how to move off the ball in support of a player.   It is night and day compared to the hockey IQ that pervades this country - and the footy IQ that is pervasive in other countries.  

That is why I don’t think there are any magic bullets to this issue.  There may be some shortcuts to quick gains (like CPL academies that could work with local associations earlier and more deeply) but there is no one thing that will solve our youth issue in the short term.  An entire culture has to evolve around this game.   


 

It would be cool to put together an entire curriculum of what kids should be learning, drills to run in practice etc. and accompany that with a video series on YouTube showing actual game footage and pointing out the finer points of what is happening.

No one would use it, but it would be fun.

[dyslexic nam]

24 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

It would be cool to put together an entire curriculum of what kids should be learning, drills to run in practice etc. and accompany that with a video series on YouTube showing actual game footage and pointing out the finer points of what is happening.

No one would use it, but it would be fun.

Hell - we would be further ahead of they just rolled out a standardized coaching package that has optimizing skills and drills that would enable parent coaches (who themselves often don’t watch footy) to embed the essentials into the developmental pathway.    

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

It would be cool to put together an entire curriculum of what kids should be learning, drills to run in practice etc. and accompany that with a video series on YouTube showing actual game footage and pointing out the finer points of what is happening.

No one would use it, but it would be fun.

I just looked up the Kamloops Youth Soccer Association website and it looks like they have a substantial layout of such through the long term player development template.  Many associations also rely on The Coaching Manual online resource to augment their curriculum. 

Maybe I am just misunderstanding the discussion here:  sòrry if I am slow on the up take. 

[Free kick]

World Ranking of various Canadian teams according to world governing bodies:

Field Hockey- Mens: 17th
Field Hockey- Womens: 16th
Indoor Volleyball-Mens: 12th
Indoor Volleyball-Womens: 11th
Team Tennis (Davis cup rankings)- Mens: 1st 
Team Tennis (BJK cup rankings)- Womens: 1st 
Rugby 7's - Mens: 14th
Rugby 7's - Womens: 7th
Rugby union - Mens: 23rd.  Have been dropping
Rugby union - Womens: 4th. 
Basketball - Mens: 6th
Basketball - Womens: 5th 
Waterpolo - Mens: 12th
Waterpolo - Womens: 8th
Baseball - Mens: 9th
Baseball - Womens: 8th
Softball - Mens: 4th
Softball - Womens: 5th
Soccer - Womens: 10th
Soccer - Mens: 45!!!!

Note:  I left out Team Handball because (outside of Quebec) most Canadians have probably never heard of the sport. I have never seen it played by anyone outside of Quebec.  But its then only sport whereby our world ranking (50th) is in line with that of our Men's National soccer teams.

*******

Conclusions:  

1) I'd say that the median value on that list is somewhere in the 8th to 12th range.   This would be in line with medal counts at Multisport games/events excluding winter Olympics. And it would be in line with several published rankings in world economic and social development indices.

2) In every sport except for soccer, the Cnd men's rankings are very much in line with the ranking of the corresponding Canadian women team rankings 

3) Before someone argues that we are talking about soccer and that its world sport and that those others are niche sports as far as participation and following,  I would say that is the case some but not for others like Basketball, Tennis and Volleyball (to a lesser extent).  These sports are played throughout most of the world and that there are pro leagues and very large and growing supporters in many countries.  Also, women's soccer (as we saw in the WWC) has really soared in popularity but yet our women's team still holds a top 10 spot.  

4) Some of these sports provided ranking for youth national team and again I found it to be in line with the senior teams.  And,  You can say our youth teams (if FIFA were to create this for U17 and U20) would be in line with the men's ranking of 45th from what we have seen in the last two years.

5) Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are not in the same league as Canada.  Except in MENS Soccer,  that's the only sport where we see this and it shouldn't happen,: even in soccer.  In fact, A world ranking of 45th is an incredible anomaly when you really think about it!!!!! the only other comparison that comes to mind is Great Britain in Basketball.    It cant be explained by the structural factors for soccer in Canada because those same structural factors are the same in other sports in Canada or in some cases, absent.  It cant be that every coach who coaches soccer is an idiot and every coach in volleyball and field hockey is a comparative genius.  Same can be said about the academies, governing bodies etc...  everybody is pretty much cut from the same cloth in Canada.

So from the above I can conclude that it is really about the player.   And i see consistencies with this U17 tournament, the last U20 qualifiers, and several of the academy players that have been called up to TFC. They don't have the talent or skills that standout.  This could be athleticism, soccer skill, or mental makeup, or desire or drive to excel... etc etc.   These attributes exist in kids or athletes who play other sports in Canada, except for Mens/boys soccer.   So its really all about the grassroots, specifically that (as i noted earlier) talented kids are seemingly opting to play other sports. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Free kick

[SoccMan]

9 hours ago, Free kick said:

Yes, I would say its the grassroots.  There are some terrific athletes in canada.  And we are seeing more and more of them in a multitude of sports whereby we are getting better and better and reaching new heights.  In the last 12 mos,  We won the Davis  cup and Fed cup.  Unthinkable 10 years ago. 
 

Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are just not in the same league as Canada when it comes to sports at the global level.   Except for soccer.  You can check the various world rankings of canada in a wide range of all other sports as well as things like Olympics and Pan am games
 

so we are producing talented athletes,  its just that they are choosing other sports instead if soccer

Like seriously look at some of those U17 players and tell me they are not athletes , this crap that our best athletes are not choosing soccer is a myth . Moreover , how many soccer players the world over are 6 “5” or even 7 feet ? Maybe the keepers but some of the best players in the world are small , there is a guy named Messi who looks like he is barely 5”6” .  There are other factors at play here but the best athletes not choosing soccer in Canada is a myth !

[Free kick]

6 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Like seriously look at some of those U17 players and tell me they are not athletes , this crap that our best athletes are not choosing soccer is a myth . Moreover , how many soccer players the world over are 6 “5” or even 7 feet ? Maybe the keepers but some of the best players in the world are small , there is a guy named Messi who looks like he is barely 5”6” .  There are other factors at play here but the best athletes not choosing soccer in Canada is a myth !

When i talk about athletes, i wasn't specifically referring to size or the physical attributes.  I was referring to the whole package.  I might go back and clarify what i meant by editing. 

PS.: we are ranked high in many sports and hence must produce great players in sports that dont reward height and size.  tennis for example.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Free kick

[SoccMan]

10 minutes ago, Free kick said:

When i talk about athletes, i wasn't specifically referring to the physical attributes.  I was referring to the whole package.  I might go back and clarify what i meant by editing. 

You brought  up world rankings in other sports , however , in soccer we are competing with soccer mad countries in South America and Africa where soccer is a religion . How many countries is volleyball a religion like soccer is in say Africa or South America ? I don’t think you can really compare most of these other sports to soccer internationally apart from a few like Basketball, yes tennis but that’s an individual sport . But remember in Basketball we have the best league in the world just next door right . With soccer we just have so many countries to compete against where soccer is the main sport where you can’t say that for the other sports so I believe it’s easier to compete against in these other sports and be ranked highly .

Edited November 17, 2023 by SoccMan

[SoccMan]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

At least where I live, a major factor is the absence of kids that regularly watch elite-level soccer.   I have coached a fluctuating group of kids up through the years as my son advances through the age divisions and literally one kid watched soccer consistently.  That is out of the probably 40 kids that have rotated in and out of his team.  One of them watched footy.  Hell, they weren’t even interested in watching us at the WC   

Obviously that changes at elite levels as you encounter more and more truly dedicated kids, but at a grassroots level the base of the pyramid of knowledgeable youth players is staggeringly low.   Again, at least where I live   

Contrast with hockey.  Kids idolize Connor McBedard, watch elite players weekly in the NHL, and just generally understand how the game is played on a tactical level.  Cycling the puck, forechecking, breaking the trap, dump and chase, etc - kids see this stuff constantly while watching the best players in the world and then they learn how to execute it during drills.  Contrast with youth soccer where you have U15 players who are still being signed up to stay in shape for hockey during the off season, don’t know what an indirect free kick is, or don’t understand how to move off the ball in support of a player.   It is night and day compared to the hockey IQ that pervades this country - and the footy IQ that is pervasive in other countries.  

That is why I don’t think there are any magic bullets to this issue.  There may be some shortcuts to quick gains (like CPL academies that could work with local associations earlier and more deeply) but there is no one thing that will solve our youth issue in the short term.  An entire culture has to evolve around this game.   


 

In terms of kids watching soccer I don’t know maybe where you live but survey after survey with kids under a certain age and soccer ranks very highly in terms of watching and sports they care about in Canada . Moreover , vast majority of kids I’ve coached even back in the day were avid viewers of the game and from watching my young nephew play today I can tell you that the vast majority of his teammates watch games and know players . It’s 2023 now and kids especially the ones who play not watching the game I don’t think plays a factor in why these youth national teams are not doing well , moreover they are watching and are engaged in the game as fans . 

[Free kick]

43 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

You brought  up world rankings in other sports , however , in soccer we are competing with soccer mad countries in South America and Africa where soccer is a religion . How many countries is volleyball a religion like soccer is in say Africa or South America ? I don’t think you can really compare most of these other sports to soccer internationally apart from a few like Basketball, yes tennis but that’s an individual sport . But remember in Basketball we have the best league in the world just next door right . With soccer we just have so many countries to compete against where soccer is the main sport where you can’t say that for the other sports so I believe it’s easier to compete against in these other sports and be ranked highly .

You are under estimating the appeal of some of these other sports in some of those countries.   Even in Africa and South America.  There are countries where soccer is not the most popular sport and we are still ranked ahead of some of those countries in sports that are secondary in canada and most popular over (even number 1) over there.   And,  I'd say that in last 10-20 years, there have been hints of decline in some parts of the world in so far as soccer.  Even in Europe.   

Also, there is consistencies across the various tables of ranking tables in all those sports.   You will see Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, France,  and Italy (to name a few)  near the top of  many of those ranking boards .  Its not like the everyone across the globe is a one trick pony that just follows one sport.   But Canada at 45 in any one of those  sports really stands out.  The gap between Canada and those aforementioned countries is much more massive in soccer than in other sports.   and those other sports are often better supported or followed in those countries than in Canada.  

Volleyball is an excellent example.   its very popular in Europe, Latin America and even Asia.  There are pro league that pay quite well.  There is no such league in Canada and few follow the sport.  yet we are still ranked 11th or 12th and produce good talent.  Talent that, by the way,  comes from all parts of Canada.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Free kick

[costarg]

12 hours ago, Free kick said:

World Ranking of various Canadian teams according to world governing bodies:

Field Hockey- Mens: 17th
Field Hockey- Womens: 16th
Indoor Volleyball-Mens: 12th
Indoor Volleyball-Womens: 11th
Team Tennis (Davis cup rankings)- Mens: 1st 
Team Tennis (BJK cup rankings)- Womens: 1st 
Rugby 7's - Mens: 14th
Rugby 7's - Womens: 7th
Rugby union - Mens: 23rd.  Have been dropping
Rugby union - Womens: 4th. 
Basketball - Mens: 6th
Basketball - Womens: 5th 
Waterpolo - Mens: 12th
Waterpolo - Womens: 8th
Baseball - Mens: 9th
Baseball - Womens: 8th
Softball - Mens: 4th
Softball - Womens: 5th
Soccer - Womens: 10th
Soccer - Mens: 45!!!!

Note:  I left out Team Handball because (outside of Quebec) most Canadians have probably never heard of the sport. I have never seen it played by anyone outside of Quebec.  But its then only sport whereby our world ranking (50th) is in line with that of our Men's National soccer teams.

*******

Conclusions:  

1) I'd say that the median value on that list is somewhere in the 8th to 12th range.   This would be in line with medal counts at Multisport games/events excluding winter Olympics. And it would be in line with several published rankings in world economic and social development indices.

2) In every sport except for soccer, the Cnd men's rankings are very much in line with the ranking of the corresponding Canadian women team rankings 

3) Before someone argues that we are talking about soccer and that its world sport and that those others are niche sports as far as participation and following,  I would say that is the case some but not for others like Basketball, Tennis and Volleyball (to a lesser extent).  These sports are played throughout most of the world and that there are pro leagues and very large and growing supporters in many countries.  Also, women's soccer (as we saw in the WWC) has really soared in popularity but yet our women's team still holds a top 10 spot.  

4) Some of these sports provided ranking for youth national team and again I found it to be in line with the senior teams.  And,  You can say our youth teams (if FIFA were to create this for U17 and U20) would be in line with the men's ranking of 45th from what we have seen in the last two years.

5) Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are not in the same league as Canada.  Except in MENS Soccer,  that's the only sport where we see this and it shouldn't happen,: even in soccer.  In fact, A world ranking of 45th is an incredible anomaly when you really think about it!!!!! the only other comparison that comes to mind is Great Britain in Basketball.    It cant be explained by the structural factors for soccer in Canada because those same structural factors are the same in other sports in Canada or in some cases, absent.  It cant be that every coach who coaches soccer is an idiot and every coach in volleyball and field hockey is a comparative genius.  Same can be said about the academies, governing bodies etc...  everybody is pretty much cut from the same cloth in Canada.

So from the above I can conclude that it is really about the player.   And i see consistencies with this U17 tournament, the last U20 qualifiers, and several of the academy players that have been called up to TFC. They don't have the talent or skills that standout.  This could be athleticism, soccer skill, or mental makeup, or desire or drive to excel... etc etc.   These attributes exist in kids or athletes who play other sports in Canada, except for Mens/boys soccer.   So its really all about the grassroots, specifically that (as i noted earlier) talented kids are seemingly opting to play other sports. 

It's not about the player.  It's the culture and knowledge of the game.  None of these other sports have the following or passion that comes close to the level of soccer worldwide.  These other sports don't have entire families glued to the TV or at the stadium on a weekly basis, or massive cult followings, parades in the streets, national holidays.  We don't have that here.  Kids here don't learn the intricacies of the sport at a really young age, they have a parent coach that chooses to spend more time with their kids, not cause he's passionate about the game.  You don't start playing waterpolo, volleyball or rugby at 6.  

Hockey is a simple sport and fairly easy to coach.  Aside from skating and shooting all you need to know is finish your checks, shoot and crash the net, don't pass across your own net, cut off the passing lane.  The biggest and most innovative changes over the past 20 years are the trap and larger equipment.  Soccer is way more complex, you'll have a hard time competing if you're not living and breathing it by 8-9.  By 12 its probably already too late, yet you'll still have a chance at the other sports.  That's why we're ok at other sports and not soccer.

Edited November 17, 2023 by costarg

[Cicero]

17 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Volleyball is an excellent example.   its very popular in Europe, Latin America and even Asia.  There are pro league that pay quite well.  There is no such league in Canada and few follow the sport.  yet we are still ranked 11th or 12th and produce good talent.  Talent that, by the way,  comes from all parts of Canada.

Volleyball is an interesting one. Really is zero focus on it mediawise, just something kids fall into in high school. I have no explanation for our success there. Baseball and softball have a very limited number of countries playing them seriously, so our rankings don't mean much. Rugby and field hockey are mostly commonwealth sports, and we don't stack up very well to our commonwealth brethren. No idea who plays waterpolo seriously. Basketball is a weird one too, a sport that is only really open, at elite levels, to the tallest 3 percent of the population. So its a game of who can push their tallest people into it and hope they have some athletic ability. I guess volleyball falls under this as well.

I don't think any of those rankings say anything really positive about our sporting culture in general. We have a country where, outside of hockey, individuals succeed mostly through their own efforts, not because of the culture and systems we have created. Quebec seems to do better with winter sports. 

[Colonel Green]

39 minutes ago, costarg said:

Hockey is a simple sport and fairly easy to coach.  Aside from skating and shooting all you need to know is finish your checks, shoot and crash the net, don't pass across your own net, cut off the passing lane.  The biggest and most innovative changes over the past 20 years are the trap and larger equipment.

Hockey is high-event, it is definitely not simple.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, SoccMan said:

In terms of kids watching soccer I don’t know maybe where you live but survey after survey with kids under a certain age and soccer ranks very highly in terms of watching and sports they care about in Canada . Moreover , vast majority of kids I’ve coached even back in the day were avid viewers of the game and from watching my young nephew play today I can tell you that the vast majority of his teammates watch games and know players . It’s 2023 now and kids especially the ones who play not watching the game I don’t think plays a factor in why these youth national teams are not doing well , moreover they are watching and are engaged in the game as fans . 

Like I said, my experience definitely might not be the norm.  But it is absolutely the case here that most kids who play the sport at the grassroots level don’t watch it.  It is encouraging to hear that isn’t the case elsewhere as I think that sort of learning-through-osmosis is a pretty important element of advancing the game.  

[Club Linesman]

I have 3 boys who are all athletic and played soccer and hockey and baseball growing up.  They rarely watched any of those sports on tv. Whereas from 4-14, I watched hockey every Saturday night, my children have probably been to more professional games than they have watched on tv.  And they have only been to a handful.  Too many options and they were not all consumed by any 1 particular sport.  

[BearcatSA]

19 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

Too many options and they were not all consumed by any 1 particular sport. 

Which is also undermines commitment to a particular sport in the same season.  Players tend to flit around between sports or activities because of the options available.  Your rep soccer team sucks?  You bail on it next season and go to lacrosse or baseball instead.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 hours ago, SoccMan said:

In terms of kids watching soccer I don’t know maybe where you live...

Think he's from Anne of Green Gables country. Vaguely remember the Lynx having a player from PEI at one point but it's probably safe to say most kids from there are only playing the sport recreationally rather than as an all-consuming passion and possible future career as you would find more in the larger cities even after a couple of generations in certain ethnic communities.

Overall, I think people on here are overreacting a bit to the outcome of these games. Mali and Uzbekistan have populations of 20 and 36 million with soccer as their top sports so it's not like losing to the Cayman Islands or something like that. Would be interesting to see where things stand with the same groups of players by U-20 level because I suspect, unlike in the past, Canada may have an edge over the next few years of development at least where these two countries are concerned thanks to having a first world economy. 

There isn't a huge amount of youth soccer that genuinely feeds into national team level development but there always has been a hardcore that took the sport seriously. If there's one thing that has helped Canadian soccer over the last couple of decades move away from lower mainland BC being the key development area in CMNT terms it has been the growth of indoor soccer through the winter months as 3G turf technology has improved.

Not being able to play on anything municipal from October to April across most of the country used to be a big part of why hockey was a better fit to emerge as the main sport. Only having a four and a half month window to play the sport was the main obstacle even for the people who wanted to take it seriously enough to build a pro level culture that could compete globally. Maybe what still needs to be looked at carefully is how best to use the winter months so elite level soccer development can happen year round like it can in Mali and Uzbekistan. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Overall, I think people on here are overreacting a bit to the outcome of these games.

I don't think people are reacting solely to these games.  We have played 24 games at this tournament over the years and have 0 wins (and have only managed 4 draws among an avalanche of 20 losses).  I am not sure using that as a platform to criticize our developmental structure is overreacting.  It seems like the criticism is justified, even if the blame is driven by a wide range of factors.  Objectively, we aren't anywhere near good enough to consider ourselves competitive at the youth level.  And that is an issue where we need to make progress - even if it requires the kind of cultural sea-change discussed above. 

[Ottawafan]

And with all the evidence in front of us I still don't think we have the ability to reassess and figure out how to change/enhance/build the game in all areas.  At least not at this point.  Hoping this changes soon. 

[Free kick]

14 hours ago, costarg said:

It's not about the player.  It's the culture and knowledge of the game.  None of these other sports have the following or passion that comes close to the level of soccer worldwide.  These other sports don't have entire families glued to the TV or at the stadium on a weekly basis, or massive cult followings, parades in the streets, national holidays.  We don't have that here.  Kids here don't learn the intricacies of the sport at a really young age, they have a parent coach that chooses to spend more time with their kids, not cause he's passionate about the game.  You don't start playing waterpolo, volleyball or rugby at 6.  

Hockey is a simple sport and fairly easy to coach.  Aside from skating and shooting all you need to know is finish your checks, shoot and crash the net, don't pass across your own net, cut off the passing lane.  The biggest and most innovative changes over the past 20 years are the trap and larger equipment.  Soccer is way more complex, you'll have a hard time competing if you're not living and breathing it by 8-9.  By 12 its probably already too late, yet you'll still have a chance at the other sports.  That's why we're ok at other sports and not soccer.

I'd like to address bolded part because you are making an argument that I used to buy and make.  But my views change by just observing what's happened (for example) in women's soccer in the past 4-8 years or so.  The Pan Am games just completed and through the free on-line Pan Am channel anyone was able to watch all the events for free.  Including women's soccer which I happened to catch a bit of.   I was surprised by how well attended and vocal (and emotional) that that the support was, it wasn't much different from a men's match in south america.  The stadium for final involving Chile looked fairly packed.  Women's soccer (contrarily to what we used to think) is no longer a a sport of niche following.   Therefore the FIFA rankings (if you exclude Canada) are starting slowly to fall into line with the men's game and with other sports. 

Even though Canada has started to regressed to the mean a bit ( we are now ranked 10th), by and large we have held and maintained a ranking in women's soccer that is consistent with other sports i listed.   So there is no way to explain, by your argument, the 45-10 gap by the fact that everybody is "soccer mad" in the rest of the world and loves mostly only one sport.   Some of these gaps exist in countries that I referred to as "One trick ponies";  For example Portugal in men's soccer.  But Portugal is relatively small country population-wise and you can say the same for Sweden in Hockey.   They are small countries.  Portugal has club in Euro-league basketball so it has to have a a good following for basketball but their national team is in the ranking territory of our men's national soccer team.   You can use Uruguay also as another example;  in other words they are one "one trick ponies" only because they are small countries population-wise.   Canada is not that small anymore.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Free kick

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 hours ago, Free kick said:

World Ranking of various Canadian teams according to world governing bodies:

Field Hockey- Mens: 17th
Field Hockey- Womens: 16th
Indoor Volleyball-Mens: 12th
Indoor Volleyball-Womens: 11th
Team Tennis (Davis cup rankings)- Mens: 1st 
Team Tennis (BJK cup rankings)- Womens: 1st 
Rugby 7's - Mens: 14th
Rugby 7's - Womens: 7th
Rugby union - Mens: 23rd.  Have been dropping
Rugby union - Womens: 4th. 
Basketball - Mens: 6th
Basketball - Womens: 5th 
Waterpolo - Mens: 12th
Waterpolo - Womens: 8th
Baseball - Mens: 9th
Baseball - Womens: 8th
Softball - Mens: 4th
Softball - Womens: 5th
Soccer - Womens: 10th
Soccer - Mens: 45!!!!

Note:  I left out Team Handball because (outside of Quebec) most Canadians have probably never heard of the sport. I have never seen it played by anyone outside of Quebec.  But its then only sport whereby our world ranking (50th) is in line with that of our Men's National soccer teams.

*******

Conclusions:  

1) I'd say that the median value on that list is somewhere in the 8th to 12th range.   This would be in line with medal counts at Multisport games/events excluding winter Olympics. And it would be in line with several published rankings in world economic and social development indices.

2) In every sport except for soccer, the Cnd men's rankings are very much in line with the ranking of the corresponding Canadian women team rankings 

3) Before someone argues that we are talking about soccer and that its world sport and that those others are niche sports as far as participation and following,  I would say that is the case some but not for others like Basketball, Tennis and Volleyball (to a lesser extent).  These sports are played throughout most of the world and that there are pro leagues and very large and growing supporters in many countries.  Also, women's soccer (as we saw in the WWC) has really soared in popularity but yet our women's team still holds a top 10 spot.  

4) Some of these sports provided ranking for youth national team and again I found it to be in line with the senior teams.  And,  You can say our youth teams (if FIFA were to create this for U17 and U20) would be in line with the men's ranking of 45th from what we have seen in the last two years.

5) Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are not in the same league as Canada.  Except in MENS Soccer,  that's the only sport where we see this and it shouldn't happen,: even in soccer.  In fact, A world ranking of 45th is an incredible anomaly when you really think about it!!!!! the only other comparison that comes to mind is Great Britain in Basketball.    It cant be explained by the structural factors for soccer in Canada because those same structural factors are the same in other sports in Canada or in some cases, absent.  It cant be that every coach who coaches soccer is an idiot and every coach in volleyball and field hockey is a comparative genius.  Same can be said about the academies, governing bodies etc...  everybody is pretty much cut from the same cloth in Canada.

So from the above I can conclude that it is really about the player.   And i see consistencies with this U17 tournament, the last U20 qualifiers, and several of the academy players that have been called up to TFC. They don't have the talent or skills that standout.  This could be athleticism, soccer skill, or mental makeup, or desire or drive to excel... etc etc.   These attributes exist in kids or athletes who play other sports in Canada, except for Mens/boys soccer.   So its really all about the grassroots, specifically that (as i noted earlier) talented kids are seemingly opting to play other sports. 

Great post. And quite interesting.

In most southern European countries you have quality leagues in basketball, waterpolo, men and women. Futsal and also in Belgium, Ukraine, other ex Soviet countries. Volleyball is more dotted, often more successful the women. Field hockey is north and south, often a couple hundred players feeds the entire national team structure and can get you medals. Handball is actually with basketball the most widely played. 

Considering most top 15 countries have leagues in the sport in question, perhaps we could say that Canada far over performs because we rarely have leagues and are still up there. Except in soccer.

[Obinna]

15 hours ago, Free kick said:

World Ranking of various Canadian teams according to world governing bodies:

Field Hockey- Mens: 17th
Field Hockey- Womens: 16th
Indoor Volleyball-Mens: 12th
Indoor Volleyball-Womens: 11th
Team Tennis (Davis cup rankings)- Mens: 1st 
Team Tennis (BJK cup rankings)- Womens: 1st 
Rugby 7's - Mens: 14th
Rugby 7's - Womens: 7th
Rugby union - Mens: 23rd.  Have been dropping
Rugby union - Womens: 4th. 
Basketball - Mens: 6th
Basketball - Womens: 5th 
Waterpolo - Mens: 12th
Waterpolo - Womens: 8th
Baseball - Mens: 9th
Baseball - Womens: 8th
Softball - Mens: 4th
Softball - Womens: 5th
Soccer - Womens: 10th
Soccer - Mens: 45!!!!

Note:  I left out Team Handball because (outside of Quebec) most Canadians have probably never heard of the sport. I have never seen it played by anyone outside of Quebec.  But its then only sport whereby our world ranking (50th) is in line with that of our Men's National soccer teams.

*******

Conclusions:  

1) I'd say that the median value on that list is somewhere in the 8th to 12th range.   This would be in line with medal counts at Multisport games/events excluding winter Olympics. And it would be in line with several published rankings in world economic and social development indices.

2) In every sport except for soccer, the Cnd men's rankings are very much in line with the ranking of the corresponding Canadian women team rankings 

3) Before someone argues that we are talking about soccer and that its world sport and that those others are niche sports as far as participation and following,  I would say that is the case some but not for others like Basketball, Tennis and Volleyball (to a lesser extent).  These sports are played throughout most of the world and that there are pro leagues and very large and growing supporters in many countries.  Also, women's soccer (as we saw in the WWC) has really soared in popularity but yet our women's team still holds a top 10 spot.  

4) Some of these sports provided ranking for youth national team and again I found it to be in line with the senior teams.  And,  You can say our youth teams (if FIFA were to create this for U17 and U20) would be in line with the men's ranking of 45th from what we have seen in the last two years.

5) Countries like Uzbekistan and Mali are not in the same league as Canada.  Except in MENS Soccer,  that's the only sport where we see this and it shouldn't happen,: even in soccer.  In fact, A world ranking of 45th is an incredible anomaly when you really think about it!!!!! the only other comparison that comes to mind is Great Britain in Basketball.    It cant be explained by the structural factors for soccer in Canada because those same structural factors are the same in other sports in Canada or in some cases, absent.  It cant be that every coach who coaches soccer is an idiot and every coach in volleyball and field hockey is a comparative genius.  Same can be said about the academies, governing bodies etc...  everybody is pretty much cut from the same cloth in Canada.

So from the above I can conclude that it is really about the player.   And i see consistencies with this U17 tournament, the last U20 qualifiers, and several of the academy players that have been called up to TFC. They don't have the talent or skills that standout.  This could be athleticism, soccer skill, or mental makeup, or desire or drive to excel... etc etc.   These attributes exist in kids or athletes who play other sports in Canada, except for Mens/boys soccer.   So its really all about the grassroots, specifically that (as i noted earlier) talented kids are seemingly opting to play other sports. 

I know this is probably an aside, but I noticed you never included the total number of teams for each sport.

For example, in Men's soccer Canada is ranked 45 out of 207. Field Hockey Canada is 17 out of 96. Indoor volleyball Canada is 12 out of 50.

I won't go through all the sports, but Canadian men aseem no worse in soccer as they are in field hockey or indoor volleyball. I know the quoted post isn't really about how men's soccer stacks up against men's field hockey, volleyball, etc., but that was something that jumped out of me and I found interesting, so I wanted to point out. I wonder if it holds true for the other sports on the list.....

[Free kick]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know this is probably an aside, but I noticed you never included the total number of teams for each sport.

For example, in Men's soccer Canada is ranked 45 out of 207. Field Hockey Canada is 17 out of 96. Indoor volleyball Canada is 12 out of 50.

I won't go through all the sports, but Canadian men aseem no worse in soccer as they are in field hockey or indoor volleyball. I know the quoted post isn't really about how men's soccer stacks up against men's field hockey, volleyball, etc., but that was something that jumped out of me and I found interesting, so I wanted to point out. I wonder if it holds true for the other sports on the list.....

Good point.  I did not include the size of the field.  I over looked that part.  But still the volleybal ranking adjusted by the size of the field still makes us look pretty good in Volleyball relative to men's soccer.   Also,  if the size of the field (for ranking purposes) is smaller,  it doesn't mean that the sport is not played competitively in those countries that are not on those lists.    Fifa could arbitrarily decide to cut the last to 100 but it wouldn't chnage our ranking in the big picture for the mens team

Edited November 17, 2023 by Free kick

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Good point.  I did not include the size of the field.  I over looked that part.  But still the volleybal ranking adjusted by the size of the field still makes us look pretty good in Volleyball relative to men's soccer.   Also,  if the size of the field (for ranking purposes) is smaller,  it doesn't mean that the sport is not played competitively in those countries that are not on those lists.    Fifa could arbitrarily decide to cut the last to 100 but it wouldn't chnage our ranking in the big picture for the mens team

which makes sense because in soccer anything after 100 you kinda go into afterthought territory. probably other sports have something similar, though.