Match Thread: FIFA U-17 World Cup: Group B - Matchday 3 - Canada v Mali - November 16, 2023 - 4am ET / 1am PT (4pm local time)

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2 hours ago, Free kick said:

I'd like to address bolded part because you are making an argument that I used to buy and make.  But my views change by just observing what's happened (for example) in women's soccer in the past 4-8 years or so.  The Pan Am games just completed and through the free on-line Pan Am channel anyone was able to watch all the events for free.  Including women's soccer which I happened to catch a bit of.   I was surprised by how well attended and vocal (and emotional) that that the support was, it wasn't much different from a men's match in south america.  The stadium for final involving Chile looked fairly packed.  Women's soccer (contrarily to what we used to think) is no longer a a sport of niche following.   Therefore the FIFA rankings (if you exclude Canada) are starting slowly to fall into line with the men's game and with other sports. 

Even though Canada has started to regressed to the mean a bit ( we are now ranked 10th), by and large we have held and maintained a ranking in women's soccer that is consistent with other sports i listed.   So there is no way to explain, by your argument, the 45-10 gap by the fact that everybody is "soccer mad" in the rest of the world and loves mostly only one sport.   Some of these gaps exist in countries that I referred to as "One trick ponies";  For example Portugal in men's soccer.  But Portugal is relatively small country population-wise and you can say the same for Sweden in Hockey.   They are small countries.  Portugal has club in Euro-league basketball so it has to have a a good following for basketball but their national team is in the ranking territory of our men's national soccer team.   You can use Uruguay also as another example;  in other words they are one "one trick ponies" only because they are small countries population-wise.   Canada is not that small anymore.

 

 

Women's soccer is rising but it isn't there yet. While there was support for Chile in the stands, the team was left with no actual goalkeeper for the final because of lack of regard. resources and incompetence. Their only world class player permanently quit the national team just before the final. 

As with the other sports you listed, the women's national team field isn't deep yet. At best, there are 40 national teams who are competitive. But as we saw this year, about 1/3 of the 32 teams in the World Cup had financial, management and/or equitable conditions issues.

Women's club football is also a few steps behind national team football. None of the Champions League matches this week were sold out even in the smaller stadiums. Largest attendance was 13k while all other matches were below 5k. 

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3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I know this is probably an aside, but I noticed you never included the total number of teams for each sport.

For example, in Men's soccer Canada is ranked 45 out of 207. Field Hockey Canada is 17 out of 96. Indoor volleyball Canada is 12 out of 50.

I won't go through all the sports, but Canadian men aseem no worse in soccer as they are in field hockey or indoor volleyball. I know the quoted post isn't really about how men's soccer stacks up against men's field hockey, volleyball, etc., but that was something that jumped out of me and I found interesting, so I wanted to point out. I wonder if it holds true for the other sports on the list.....

The next step would also look at the competitiveness of the field. In men's field hockey group of 96, there are less than 15 tier 1 countries. Only 11 countries have placed in the top 4 in either the Olympics/World Cup in this century. Then, there is at least 1 level drop for the next 10 (Canada's rank) and then preciptious drops thereafter. 

Looking at to see how pervasie pro leagues are in a team sport would be another factor. Canada seems to hold its own better in team sports where there are limited pro leagues or leagues not paying big bucks, the US has a top tier pro league in the sport or the NCAA league is in the top tier. There is government funding and more recently Own the Podium money for Canadian teams in Olympic sports. But there is no big time support for pro leagues in long standing Olympic sports ex men's hockey & basketball. Men's rugby rankings started to fall off after the sport became more professionalized.

Edited November 17, 2023 by red card

[Free kick]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:12 PM, red card said:

The next step would also look at the competitiveness of the field. In men's field hockey group of 96, there are less than 15 tier 1 countries. Only 11 countries have placed in the top 4 in either the Olympics/World Cup in this century. Then, there is at least 1 level drop for the next 10 (Canada's rank) and then preciptious drops thereafter. 

Looking at to see how pervasie pro leagues are in a team sport would be another factor. Canada seems to hold its own better in team sports where there are limited pro leagues or leagues not paying big bucks, the US has a top tier pro league in the sport or the NCAA league is in the top tier. There is government funding and more recently Own the Podium money for Canadian teams in Olympic sports. But there is no big time support for pro leagues in long standing Olympic sports ex men's hockey & basketball. Men's rugby rankings started to fall off after the sport became more professionalized.

Competitiveness of the field is a very fair point.  Its true that a ranking of 12th in one sports might not mean that you are closer to a podium than a ranking 24 in another sport.    Latvia was ranked 30th going into the recent Basketball World cup and they almost reached a podium.   In soccer there are sides in the 20-25 ranged that can and have previously gotten to a semi final at a WC.  As you said, I dont think that that is possible in field hockey or Volleyball.  Nobody seems to think that a podium is possible in Volleyball (where we are ranked 12th). 

But another factor that came to my mind when i created that list is that soccer was the only sport that I could think of whereby there was a distinct region that was restricted to North America for purposes of qualifying and and for regional competitions.   In the Long term, this has to hurt Men's soccer in Canada and probably has.  And this is due to the geographics, demographic and population makeup of North America (i.e.: CONCACAF) which means we are not getting enough competition that can push our limits, allow learn from best practices and develop a following and fan base that would result from the marquee value of our opponents if they included SA.   In other sports on that list, you have to compete to qualify through an America's wide region.  Whereas in Concacaf, 75% of our possible rivals are very tiny nations without the population and infrastructure to be competitive.   This became evident for the first time at the recent WC and in the leadup;  how many teams di we really play in WCQ that prepared us for Croatia, Belgium and Morroco? Maybe 2-4.   This is one whereby we can point the finger directly at FIFA.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Free kick

[narduch]

Mali beat Mexico 5-0 today in the round of 16

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No Concacaf teams left as US lost to Germany today also. Uzbekistan play England tomorrow and are only AFC team remaining.

Elite 8 will have 2 from Conmebol and likely 3-4 from UEFA & 2-3 from CAF.

If you want detailed 40+ pages reports on Canada's 3 matches along with the rest of the matches, it's available on FIFA's Match Report Hub.

https://www.fifatrainingcentre.com/en/game/tournaments/fu17wc/2023/post-match-summary-reports.php

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by red card

[Unnamed Trialist]

Related to the above, two of our group rivals are into the final 8. Uzbeks tomorrow (have it tough vs England, but are maybe better than we thought). So it was not the easiest group I'd say. 

And on that, I think Spain never really dominated and hasn't dominated so far. They were gifted reds vs us and Mali, then the Uzbeks tied them. Yesterday Japan was playing well and it was tied until a late Guiu goal. So our staying close to them: either we weren't that bad, or they weren't that good. The answer is probably that Spain is solid, lacking punch, but can keep it tight vs. anyone. Vs German in quarters Friday).

What stands out about the teams that are alive (Brazil-Argentina is another quarter final) is that when they play, they are always on. The intensity and game play is 95% at least the entire match. They are clicked in. We don't have that, at all, which is why I really do think Olivieri let us down.