Zac McGraw

[Bison44]

Putting a positive spin on it, if we have those 5-6 youngish MLS CB, it only takes one of them to have a mini-breakthrough (like Miller did) to pop them into a big role with CMNT.  We've got a lot of guys in CPL, NCAA, MLS acadamies, raising that floor gives us a solid foundation for more guys to step up to MLS levels as well.  Ther are more CDN CB playing in MLS (and keepers) than I can remember for a long time.  Slow and steady building of the "soccer nation" from the ground up, more leagues (CPL, L1BC/AB etc), more teams/pro spots, more kids coming down the pipe.  And a guy like McGraw dropping into our lap is just gravy.  

[jonovision]

25 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

It's progress, but will it be enough to compete at a World Cup? Only time will tell. 

What does this mean? Play competitive games against good teams? We've already ticked that box? Win the tournament? Absolutely will never happen in our lifetimes. Something in between? 

[jonovision]

9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Cornelius is definately top as of right now (healthy)

Kennedy (if stays healthy), can get better in my opinion and move up a level

Zator his lined up good performances after another in the right environment and helped his club avoid relegation - not sure he reached his ceiling yet

Bombito looks promising but I don't think it's the national team's job to develop a player at another position. Let the club do it and until he becomes a 6 - play him at bloody CB.

Unless Miller moves up, I think that's his ceiling and he slightly regressed at club level this year, not a great world cup either.

Too soon to tell for the rest. McGraw is sloooooow... can't use him in a formation he's not Familia with where guys are played out of position.

Dominick Zator is almost 29. There are exceptions but he is not at a point in the typical age-performance curve where you'd expect a lot of further improvement.

[DeRo_Is_King]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

What does this mean? Play competitive games against good teams? We've already ticked that box? Win the tournament? Absolutely will never happen in our lifetimes. Something in between? 

I'm sorry, but not earning a single point, mustering just two goals (one of which was an own goal) and conceding seven times in three games is not exactly competing.

I'd like to see them make it out of the group phase, and I think a high-end CB playing at a top-tier club (Serie A, EPL, La Liga, Ligue 1, Bundesliga) will help us secure that type of performance.

I'm not expecting a team of world-class players, but we absolutely need at least one top-end quality player at the back. It's killing us. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by DeRo_Is_King

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Cornelius is definately top as of right now (healthy)

Kennedy (if stays healthy), can get better in my opinion and move up a level

Zator his lined up good performances after another in the right environment and helped his club avoid relegation - not sure he reached his ceiling yet

Bombito looks promising but I don't think it's the national team's job to develop a player at another position. Let the club do it and until he becomes a 6 - play him at bloody CB.

Unless Miller moves up, I think that's his ceiling and he slightly regressed at club level this year, not a great world cup either.

Too soon to tell for the rest. McGraw is sloooooow... can't use him in a formation he's not Familia with where guys are played out of position.

Right now Cornelius is the one CB with the best chance of becoming a tier 1 CB for us. Being at Malmo he'll have the exposure the others won't have, even if the club strength is not much better than your typical MLS team. From Malmo it's still a pretty big jump to go to a top 5 league, but it's in the realm of possibility I believe. Probably to Ligue 1 or even Serie A or Bundesliga. Or he could go to a team like PSV or Feyenoord. I think Sweden to Holland is a common jump. He still has a lot to prove with Malmo though, so trying not to look to far ahead. If he continues to be an important player for a few seasons, then pushes for another move later in the cycle, I am fine with that. 

I don't see anyone else making a jump. Kennedy potentially might if he stays in the German system, but at best I see him being a yo-yo guy between B1 and B2. Who knows tho....would love to be wrong obviously. 

[Ansem]

23 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Right now Cornelius is the one CB with the best chance of becoming a tier 1 CB for us. Being at Malmo he'll have the exposure the others won't have, even if the club strength is not much better than your typical MLS team. From Malmo it's still a pretty big jump to go to a top 5 league, but it's in the realm of possibility I believe. Probably to Ligue 1 or even Serie A or Bundesliga. Or he could go to a team like PSV or Feyenoord. I think Sweden to Holland is a common jump. He still has a lot to prove with Malmo though, so trying not to look to far ahead. If he continues to be an important player for a few seasons, then pushes for another move later in the cycle, I am fine with that. 

I don't see anyone else making a jump. Kennedy potentially might if he stays in the German system, but at best I see him being a yo-yo guy between B1 and B2. Who knows tho....would love to be wrong obviously. 

I'm just curious to know how you've established that Malmo isn't much better than an average MLS squad?

Looking at the UEFA club coefficient and having seen them in Europa, I wouldn't go that far

[Bigandy]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

I will leave Bombito out of this, but for me McGraw, Heibert, McNaugton, Zator and Waterman are guys who raise our floor at CB - not our ceiling.

I don't think any of them have what it takes to emerge as a top CB choice, but that doesn't mean they aren't important for the program. If we had 1-2 top level CBs that would bump Miller and Kennedy down into this group, where they probably belong. As it stands though, at least 1 is going to be a starter for Canada this cycle. If that's Miller heading into the WC, at least he's got the experience under him this time around.  

100%! Ive been saying that our tier 3 CB's are very much unlikely to fulfill any major role for us. 
Tier 1 CB's - none
Tier 2 CBs - Kennedy, vitoria, miller, cornelius
Tier 2B - Potential to be tier 2: Bombito
Tier 3- Mcgraw, waterman, heibert, mcnaughton, zator - Mcgraw could potentially get big minutes because of the lack of CB depth with vitoria. He could be 2B. Heibert could maybe be 2C. The rest are 3's 

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm just curious to know how you've established that Malmo isn't much better than an average MLS squad?

Looking at the UEFA club coefficient and having seen them in Europa, I wouldn't go that far

I base that off the eye test watching highlights and comparing the resumes of the players vs MLS players, along with the TM values of Malmo versus a typical MLS squad. My armchair assesment is that Malmo would be similar to a typical MLS team, aside from the fact they would be deeper and less top heavy.

Or if you want another comparison - a typical Liga MX team. Probably a better way to look at it given the quirkiness of MLS rosters. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

100%! Ive been saying that our tier 3 CB's are very much unlikely to fulfill any major role for us. 
Tier 1 CB's - none
Tier 2 CBs - Kennedy, vitoria, miller, cornelius
Tier 2B - Potential to be tier 2: Bombito
Tier 3- Mcgraw, waterman, heibert, mcnaughton, zator - Mcgraw could potentially get big minutes because of the lack of CB depth with vitoria. He could be 2B. Heibert could maybe be 2C. The rest are 3's 

Good way to break it down. I would probably quibble about Waterman also having 2C potential if you're saying that about Heibert.  

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I base that off the eye test watching highlights and comparing the resumes of the players vs MLS players, along with the TM values of Malmo versus a typical MLS squad. My armchair assesment is that Malmo would be similar to a typical MLS team, aside from the fact they would be deeper and less top heavy.

Or if you want another comparison - a typical Liga MX team. Probably a better way to look at it given the quirkiness of MLS rosters. 

Was just curious, I think Malmö is stronger but agree to disagree

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Was just curious, I think Malmö is stronger but agree to disagree

Ah see what you mean now. I could easily be convinced of that. Keep in mind too that Malmo came off a down year where they finished 7th missed out on Europe entirely. That may be what brought their TM value down to average MLS/Liga MX level. 

I think typical Malmo wins the league and competes well in Conference league, if not Europa league. That probably makes them more similar to, if not better than, a top end MLS/Liga MX team as opposed to an average one. 

[Bigandy]

23 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good way to break it down. I would probably quibble about Waterman also having 2C potential if you're saying that about Heibert.  

I wouldnt be shocked but I dont think so. He has the opposite of kone imo. Kone has that classy x factor where you know he will develop. Waterman doesnt. He can be servicable but i doubt he can be anything more. Heibert is likely that way as well but he has a slightly higher upside imo.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I wouldnt be shocked but I dont think so. He has the opposite of kone imo. Kone has that classy x factor where you know he will develop. Waterman doesnt. He can be servicable but i doubt he can be anything more. Heibert is likely that way as well but he has a slightly higher upside imo.

Yeah fair enough. For me I rate Waterman over Heibert due to his ability on the ball, but in truth they are probably close enough that I am splitting hairs. Both are mid-20 somethings light on pro experience but starting in Major League Soccer. Ditto McGraw and kind of ditto McNaugton, who is more of a 3rd-choice type that's closer to 30 than 25. 

Also ditto Miller.  

[FC_Hali]

17 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Putting a positive spin on it, if we have those 5-6 youngish MLS CB, it only takes one of them to have a mini-breakthrough (like Miller did) to pop them into a big role with CMNT.  We've got a lot of guys in CPL, NCAA, MLS acadamies, raising that floor gives us a solid foundation for more guys to step up to MLS levels as well.  Ther are more CDN CB playing in MLS (and keepers) than I can remember for a long time.  Slow and steady building of the "soccer nation" from the ground up, more leagues (CPL, L1BC/AB etc), more teams/pro spots, more kids coming down the pipe.  And a guy like McGraw dropping into our lap is just gravy.  

Well put. It’s easy to get caught up in the negativity but the reality is the player pool is deeper than its ever been (certainly in my lifetime). I can’t remember a time where we had the luxury of leaving MLS starters off a Gold Cup roster. And the calibre and professionalism of todays’ MLS is miles ahead of where it was 10-15 years ago. It’s certainly a “rising tide” situation. 

[dyslexic nam]

9 hours ago, FC_Hali said:

Well put. It’s easy to get caught up in the negativity but the reality is the player pool is deeper than its ever been (certainly in my lifetime). I can’t remember a time where we had the luxury of leaving MLS starters off a Gold Cup roster. And the calibre and professionalism of todays’ MLS is miles ahead of where it was 10-15 years ago. It’s certainly a “rising tide” situation. 

Agree, but the main issue for me is that we aren’t improving in a vacuum - everyone else is doing the same thing.   Caribbean nations are uncovering dual Nats not good enough for the larger footy powers, Mexico will continue to churn out a ton of talent via Liga MX, the US now has a massive development system in place with an increasingly competitive MLS, etc.   We not only have to get better - we have to get better at a faster rate than our competitors. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Agree, but the main issue for me is that we aren’t improving in a vacuum - everyone else is doing the same thing.   Caribbean nations are uncovering dual Nats not good enough for the larger footy powers, Mexico will continue to churn out a ton of talent via Liga MX, the US now has a massive development system in place with an increasingly competitive MLS, etc.   We not only have to get better - we have to get better at a faster rate than our competitors. 

We have to get better, at a faster rate, from a much further behind starting point, with much fewer resources. I think that comparing us to other concacaf nations is not indicative of where we are at as a nation. 

We need the entire region to improve as it will help us. Better quality opposition, more leagues at higher qualities to play in, more revenue generation are some of the spin offs our guys will get.  

I personally would love to see us being the 3rd best nation in concacaf which is top 10 in the world compared to being #1 in the concacaf but being 30th in the world. 

Canada virtually has no chance to compete at world cups in a vacuum. We need concacaf to improve a whole if we are to compete.

[FC_Hali]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Agree, but the main issue for me is that we aren’t improving in a vacuum - everyone else is doing the same thing.   Caribbean nations are uncovering dual Nats not good enough for the larger footy powers, Mexico will continue to churn out a ton of talent via Liga MX, the US now has a massive development system in place with an increasingly competitive MLS, etc.   We not only have to get better - we have to get better at a faster rate than our competitors. 

Interesting. I think we actually benefitted immensely in WCQ from Costa Rica, Honduras, and Panama all aging out of their “golden generations.” You can arguably say the same for Mexico.

From a top-end talent perspective, it’s really only Canada and the United States that are materially ascending. Jamaica looks like they have gained some momentum with their recruiting; we’ll see if that’s sustainable. 

Hard to say about the rest but it’s probably a mixed bag.  

[VinceA]

My thing is we're getting all these defensive depth pieces, but they're all the same. MLS defenders who range from okay to good.

Also for some cosmic reason three of our MLS CBs of them were born in 97😂 and five in total in our pool are 97s.

I'm hoping we see someone like Jamie Knight-Lebel or someone else in Europe emerge to give us a different profile than "CB who played in College and projects as MLS mainstay"

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by VinceA

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, VinceA said:

My thing is we're getting all these defensive depth pieces, but they're all the same. MLS defenders who range from okay to good.

Also for some cosmic reason three of our MLS CBs of them were born in 97😂 and five in total in our pool are 97s.

I'm hoping we see someone like Jamie Knight-Lebel or someone else in Europe emerge to give us a different profile than "CB who played in College and projects as MLS mainstay"

 

100% agree but of the pool of CB, I think bombito has a chance to surpass the mls caliber. 

[VinceA]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

100% agree but of the pool of CB, I think bombito has a chance to surpass the mls caliber. 

True but by the looks of it, Bombito won't be a CB long term with us.

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, VinceA said:

True but by the looks of it, Bombito won't be a CB long term with us.

I agree... I do think that in meaningful games we could have strong CM options that bombito cant break into and then bombito plays "out of position" as a CB. I cant imagine herdman wouldnt consider bombito at CB if the alternative is to have him on the bench.... i hope

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, VinceA said:

True but by the looks of it, Bombito won't be a CB long term with us.

I can see Bombito developing as a 6 for Canada and Colorado, then making a move later on to a bigger European club that puts him back to CB, which is fine. Not saying he's going to be the same level player, but Alvarez for Mexico and Ajax spends time at both positions for both teams. I would be fine with Bombito developing in this manner. 

[VinceA]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I can see Bombito developing as a 6 for Canada and Colorado, then making a move later on to a bigger European club that puts him back to CB, which is fine. Not saying he's going to be the same level player, but Alvarez for Mexico and Ajax spends time at both positions for both teams. I would be fine with Bombito developing in this manner. 

That's a good point. We could end up seeing a similar development with Justin Smith.

[DeRo_Is_King]

Thoughts on his performance yesterday? I'm neutral. Too small a sample size, so the jury is still out imo.

I was more mystified by the decision to bring him on when we needed to score. 

[BearcatSA]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:22 PM, Bigandy said:

Heibert is likely that way as well but he has a slightly higher upside imo.

I have seen him a couple of times now and I think he'll plateau as a good MLS journeyman pro and not a regular international squad member.  But that is a positive because he is a late bloomer type and is a good example for other overlooked guys willing to work hard, earn a place, and make the most of an opportunity.

With both McGraw and Bombito getting good looks at this GC, guys like Zator, MacNaughton, and Waterman are likely viewed as guys who are more on the fringes and would likely be leapfrogged by other newbie/younger prospects.  The latter two always seemed like fallback guys to Herdman.

I'm curious to see if Kennedy gets a atart vs Cuba or any minutes, for.that matter.