Zac McGraw

[Pasta88]

59 minutes ago, blueseeka said:

So dumb. Sure load up Team Canada with a bunch of CPL players and hope for a top 150 ranking.

 

Born with Canadian parents or grandparents (in my eyes) makes you Canadian. Who cares where they were raised, you don't just lose your citizenship cause pasta has joined the board

If we are only top 150 with Canadian raised players then so be it. 
 

You’re conflating Canadian citizenship with being a Canadian produced professional soccer player. Many players are both Canadian citizens and Canadian produced, but some Canada eligible players are only the first category. No one is questioning if they are Canadian citizens or not, nor which country(ies) they choose to identify with, but I won’t pretend that a player like McGraw is anything but an American produced player. So is Landon Donovan but we don’t pretend like he’s some Canadian legend.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Pasta88

[Pasta88]

46 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

136 players at Qatar represented countries other than the ones where they were born

It’s a bad trend overall, which is why I hope our team can avoid falling for it as much as possible. But that stat is always a bit misleading because many players move to a different country than they were born in and grow up in the new country, which they represent (as they should). Davies and David being two obvious ones who were born abroad but grew up playing soccer in Canada.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

I want a team full of Canadian trained players since to me that is the entire point of international soccer. Our Qatar WC team was pretty damn close to that thankfully. I don’t want a bunch of players who never have even played the sport in our country, no matter how much they help us win. Others can disagree of course.

I suspect lots on here would love it if we were in a position to field a winning team of Canadian players who spent the majority of their formative years plying their trade in this country.   But for now priority 1 is establishing ourselves as a consistent regional power - which in turn will help us retain Canadian-raised duals with options.  It will also continue to grow interest in the game - and that expanded fan base, media interest, and corporate buy-in means more money will flow into the game domestically and puts us in a stronger position to churn out more high quality domestic players.

If we can get to the end state of not needing to recruit eligible players developed elsewhere I think we will be in a far stronger position than we are now - but we are not close to that yet.  If an eligible dual chooses Canada and wants to contribute to the success of the CMNT and thereby grow the sport in this country, they have my full support.    
 

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I suspect lots on here would love it if we were in a position to field a winning team of Canadian players who spent the majority of their formative years plying their trade in this country.   But for now priority 1 is establishing ourselves as a consistent regional power - which in turn will help us retain Canadian-raised duals with options.  It will also continue to grow interest in the game - and that expanded fan base, media interest, and corporate buy-in means more money will flow into the game domestically and puts us in a stronger position to churn out more high quality domestic players.

If we can get to the end state of not needing to recruit eligible players developed elsewhere I think we will be in a far stronger position than we are now - but we are not close to that yet.  If an eligible dual chooses Canada and wants to contribute to the success of the CMNT and thereby grow the sport in this country, they have my full support.    
 

Great post but we will never get to the spot where we dont need duals. Every single nation does this. France is notorious for this. 

It is an interesting take though. Should a purely canadian team be defined as guys who are canadian citizens or should it be guys who were developed within canada or could it be guys born in Canada but had development abroad. Wheres the line? 

I 100% love dual nats but if we were going to be "pure" Canadians than we really should not accept anyone who developed in europe. @Pasta88I dont get how you can think Ugbo is canadian but some of the other guys arent. He was born in england. He joined chelsea in U-10. How can we claim to have developed him at all? If hes Canadian than surely we can allow other guys to be as well. 

[PopePouri]

2 hours ago, Pasta88 said:

I didn’t post here then or I would have. I didn’t/don’t want any of them on the national team.

I’m fine with Ugbo/Eustáquio types because although they left Canada quite young, they at least lived here for a few years at a soccer playing age (i.e I wanted no part of Tomori though).

I want a team full of Canadian trained players since to me that is the entire point of international soccer. Our Qatar WC team was pretty damn close to that thankfully. I don’t want a bunch of players who never have even played the sport in our country, no matter how much they help us win. Others can disagree of course.

Patriotism in an age of pluralism is complicated, and so create a box that say "Canadian" for someone is completely relative. I mean Zac here could be chugging maple syrup for breakfast and listening to Drake all day. 

This type of gatekeeping is pointless.

Edited June 2, 2023 by PopePouri

[Aird25]

16 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

It’s a bad trend overall, which is why I hope our team can avoid falling for it as much as possible. But that stat is always a bit misleading because many players move to a different country than they were born in and grow up in the new country, which they represent (as they should). Davies and David being two obvious ones who were born abroad but grew up playing soccer in Canada.

I thought the Moroccan team was a joy to watch, and the passion coming from that country was infectious. More than half their players were born outside the country and recruited from the Moroccan diaspora. Others left at a young age and received training elsewhere. 

Davies and David have both received top level training since leaving Canada. There's no guarantee they would have become the players they are now without that. I don't support them any less because of that though.

[Pasta88]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Great post but we will never get to the spot where we dont need duals. Every single nation does this. France is notorious for this. 

It is an interesting take though. Should a purely canadian team be defined as guys who are canadian citizens or should it be guys who were developed within canada or could it be guys born in Canada but had development abroad. Wheres the line? 

I 100% love dual nats but if we were going to be "pure" Canadians than we really should not accept anyone who developed in europe. @Pasta88I dont get how you can think Ugbo is canadian but some of the other guys arent. He was born in england. He joined chelsea in U-10. How can we claim to have developed him at all? If hes Canadian than surely we can allow other guys to be as well. 

France really only uses players raised in France so I’d love for us to get there. Yes their players are eligible for other countries but 99% of the time they are French trained players who grew up in France. The only exceptions recently I can think of are the Hernandez brothers who are French but grew up in Madrid and if, you go back 25 years, Trezeguet who grew up in Argentina. Please try to ignore racist bs on the internet that makes it seem like France goes into Africa before every world cup and hand picks their team.

Ugbo grew up and played soccer in Canada from ages 4-9, so yes that is quite a bit more Canadian development than other players who have never even lived here.

[Pasta88]

23 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I suspect lots on here would love it if we were in a position to field a winning team of Canadian players who spent the majority of their formative years plying their trade in this country.   But for now priority 1 is establishing ourselves as a consistent regional power - which in turn will help us retain Canadian-raised duals with options.  It will also continue to grow interest in the game - and that expanded fan base, media interest, and corporate buy-in means more money will flow into the game domestically and puts us in a stronger position to churn out more high quality domestic players.

If we can get to the end state of not needing to recruit eligible players developed elsewhere I think we will be in a far stronger position than we are now - but we are not close to that yet.  If an eligible dual chooses Canada and wants to contribute to the success of the CMNT and thereby grow the sport in this country, they have my full support.    
 

I see where you are coming from and can agree to disagree

[Aird25]

4 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

I see where you are coming from and can agree to disagree

I'm curious what your club team is?

[Pasta88]

5 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

Patriotism in an age of pluralism is complicated, and so create a box that say "Canadian" for someone is completely relative. I mean Zac here could be chugging maple syrup for breakfast and listening to Drake all day. 

This type of gatekeeping is pointless.

I am only attempting to create a box in footballing terms. I don’t care if he or anyone identifies as a Canadian. I am not the gatekeeper of Canadian identity nor do I want to be.
 

Legally he is a Canadian and that is all the matters to represent Canada in international football competition. I disagree with this and think the eligibility rules should be stricter. 

[PopePouri]

4 minutes ago, Pasta88 said:

I am only attempting to create a box in footballing terms. I don’t care if he or anyone identifies as a Canadian. I am not the gatekeeper of Canadian identity nor do I want to be.
 

Legally he is a Canadian and that is all the matters to represent Canada in international football competition. I disagree with this and think the eligibility rules should be stricter. 

1) That would significantly reduce the parity in international football. 

2) There's no reason to remove someone's relative patriotic identity with where someone plays their football. That rule would be rather arbitary.

[JamboAl]

The FIFA rules were set up so that there could be clarity as to who would be eligible.  Some may not like them but without those rules, it would be like chaos (or like club football).

What @Pasta88 is arguing (I think) is whether we should be selecting players with a “tenuous” tie to Canada.  We could, and that could be defined by the coach or by someone at Canada Soccer.  It would mean that we would be left behind in the sport; and that coach or someone making that decision would not be in a job long.  But it is not an invalid position per se.

[El Diego]

I am actually with Pasta88 on a very general level. To me international soccer is: what country produces the best players? If I say I want Canadian produced players repping the NT it is not because I deem someone to not be Canadian, it's because I find it weird that a country that has zero credit in forming this players is the one who benefits from it.

I don't feel strongly enough to advocate for changing the criteria, I will 100% support McGraw as a NT player, and I think that getting such guys on the NT is something we need to be doing. But if we're looking at this at a high level, it's a bit absurd.

[frmr]

Like JamboAl said, the rules were set up to give clarity. The argument being made here is an arbitrary line being drawn. If someone has immediate Canadian heritage, they qualify to play for that country. Just because someone thinks that that definition of being "Canadian" is too loose, that does not give grounds to change the rule, or worse yet, change the policy of a national team and give yourself a competitive disadvantage. While we're at it, we should only field First Nations players, because everyone else is not actually truly "Canadian". In fact we should change our name to Turtle Island, because Canada is not even a real country. I'm being sarcastic of course, but this argument is arbitrary. He has Canadian docs, he can play for Canada.

[InglewoodJack]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There was a reasonably famous Scottish footballer called Allan McGraw who played for a club called Morton that used to be in the top tier a lot but aren't as strong nowadays, so not sure why people seem to think this surname is some weird Americanism. Think it's more often Scottish than Irish originally. Even the Zac part might happen in a UK context these days because all kinds of weird and wonderful names have started to be used a lot in recent decades. Beyond that is it because this guy is American that people suddenly have a problem over using FIFA's eligibility rules to bolster the roster? Don't remember there being as much angst over Frank Sturing.

It was a throwaway joke that didn't need close to this much discussion over the name, but Zac- or any spelling variation of a common name- sounds vaguely american, and McGraw makes me think of Tim McGraw, John McGraw, so on. Just one of those names you hear and instantly assume the guy is American.

I think the reason people have an issue with this guy is that frankly, he's just not that exciting of a dual national to keep an eye on. Does he even have a guaranteed spot on a full strength roster of ours? With Vitoria, Cornelius, Miller, Kennedy, Hiebert, Zator, so on, this guy could commit to us and still be left home. If we lose him, it won't affect our team significantly, so it's a great time to decide that the eligibility rules are silly and should prevent us from bringing in players who aren't actually that Canadian. Nevermind the fact he's probably more Canadian than David Wotherspoon for example, a CANMNT fan favourite.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

It was a throwaway joke...but Zac- or any spelling variation of a common name- sounds vaguely american

So if ZBG and McGraw were both starting for us, who gets to be called what?

Zachary & Zac?

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am actually with Pasta88 on a very general level. To me international soccer is: what country produces the best players? If I say I want Canadian produced players repping the NT it is not because I deem someone to not be Canadian, it's because I find it weird that a country that has zero credit in forming this players is the one who benefits from it.

I don't feel strongly enough to advocate for changing the criteria, I will 100% support McGraw as a NT player, and I think that getting such guys on the NT is something we need to be doing. But if we're looking at this at a high level, it's a bit absurd.

We have to keep in mind that these rules have to apply to ~200 nations with 200 different definitions of what it means to be from that country and one set of rules has to protect them all. I have issues with guys like Abzi and Farsi deciding they're not actually really Canadian, but in cases of guys like that, and I'm especially thinking of how France produces players for like 7 different countries- who are we to say that someone who grew up in a Moroccan neighbourhood outside of Paris, spoke Arabic, learned to play with their Moroccan friends, turns on the TV and hears the talking heads talking about how terrible north african immigration to france has been, who are we to tell them they should only see themselves as French?

McGraw's case is an exception because he's an American who is a service member who also went to West Point- you really can't get more American than that- but he's operating under the exact same system that has to take into account immigration, refugees, different political realities- those are the factors that affect most countries, we're different. Canada is still in the stage where we'll consider anyone playing relatively competitive professional soccer to join our team, but these rules also cover countries like Spain, France, Netherlands, Brazil, so on that not only have more world class players than they can field, but so many that if you were to start tightening up the restrictions on who can play where, you're getting a ton of world class players that will never be able to play interational soccer.

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

So if ZBG and McGraw were both starting for us, who gets to be called what?

Zachary & Zac?

Funny enough, it doesn't get more Canadian of a name than Brault-Guillard. I've been calling him ZBG for so long, when I heard his name be called at the last Montreal game, I was like, oh right, he's Zachary.

[SpursFlu]

I think you would be foolish not to accept the best players within the current guidelines. Mostly because everyone else will be doing it. And the way people move around now, it's just the way it's going to be. I think its natural but people show their bias.. its cool when it's this type of name or that type of name but when it's Zac McGrath who played College Soccer with the US Army (lol, you really can't make that up) it's not so cool

Edited June 2, 2023 by SpursFlu

[El Hombre]

25 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I think the reason people have an issue with this guy is that frankly, he's just not that exciting of a dual national to keep an eye on.

I think he's less exciting for some people for two reasons:

1) He actually wants to play for us.  It's a lot more fun to be angry about some perceived slight than be grateful for a gift.

2) He's playing in the US.  If he was playing in an exotic European location, say somewhere like Croatia, I'd bet a lot more people would be excited. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by El Hombre

[Xavier.]

2 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

Yea CB depth chart looks the best it’s ever been

Cornelius

Vitoria

Miller

Kennedy

McGraw?

Zator

Heibert 

Bombito

Mcnaugton

Waterman

Then you have a guy like AJ who can play there maybe even Tomori? (I know it’s not possible but just the thought makes me happy) and even our CB prospects like Campagana, Smith, Knight-Lebel and in my opinion the best of the bunch Stefanovic who has started every game in next pro as a 16 year old. With that group of guys one player on Davies, David, Buchanan, Kone, Eustaqio level at CB would really complete this team, it could’ve and maybe still could be Tomori but it seems very possible someone like Stefanovic or Smith will become that guy.

Don't forget Adam Pearlman. Him and Stefanovic have the highest upside of all the CB prospects.

[Aird25]

19 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Funny enough, it doesn't get more Canadian of a name than Brault-Guillard. I've been calling him ZBG for so long, when I heard his name be called at the last Montreal game, I was like, oh right, he's Zachary.

That's a dangerous game. I imagine there are many non French/English family names of European and non-European origin that are significantly more common than Brault or Guillard. Many of which have been in Canada for many generations

[Corazon]

I went to USA to play footy and I almost ended up starting a family down there.  If I was lucky enough to have children play at the calibre that warrants a national team callup.  I would 100% without a doubt push for them to play for Canada.  It wouldn't matter if my children were born and raised in the United States or anywhere else in the world.  I have family here so my children would be visiting Canada regularly anyways but even if they didn't I would still push 100% to represent Canada because I am a proud Canadian and proud of our national program.  So I don't quite get the argument here and I think almost every die hard fan on this board would likely agree with me.

On the flipside, we're extremely selfish and are disheartened when we see this happen to ourselves.  When we lose dual nationals to parents home countries.  Just a little added perspective.  Of course, I'd be open to my kids representing USA or any other country they were born and raised in.  At the end of the day, it would be their decision and I would be proud regardless, but I can tell you which country I would be pushing them to represent.

[InglewoodJack]

20 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

That's a dangerous game. I imagine there are many non French/English family names of European and non-European origin that are significantly more common than Brault or Guillard. Many of which have been in Canada for many generations

Maybe, maybe not, but if you met someone named Brault-Guillard and had to guess which country that name came from, most people would probably guess Canada.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Pasta88 said:

France really only uses players raised in France so I’d love for us to get there. Yes their players are eligible for other countries but 99% of the time they are French trained players who grew up in France. The only exceptions recently I can think of are the Hernandez brothers who are French but grew up in Madrid and if, you go back 25 years, Trezeguet who grew up in Argentina. Please try to ignore racist bs on the internet that makes it seem like France goes into Africa before every world cup and hand picks their team.

Ugbo grew up and played soccer in Canada from ages 4-9, so yes that is quite a bit more Canadian development than other players who have never even lived here.

I dont think its racist to acknowledge where players were born. Lemar, Umtiti, Mandanda were born outside france. Griezman was developed by real sociedad. Add in the 2 hernandez brothers and theres 6 examples since 2010ish. France is the deepest nation in the world by far and if they are taking on guys who are not fully french, theres zero chance canada can.  
I would say its more racist to exclude Canadians from a canadian team than it is to say that a french player is french even though they were born outside of france.