Justin Smith

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

And, how about MLS? There are presently 29 teams with expansion likely. The quality of teams varies widely. It is too bad that a promotion relegation system is not envisioned so there could be two divisions ("1A" and "1B") of eventually 16 to 18 teams each with two or three relegated/promoted each year.  I realize that the US market is not prepared for this, but it would be interesting. Would it sustain fan interest though? I wonder.

I know its not a popular opinion to some, but I still think MLS will never reach its full potential unless it cuts its top division to 18-20 teams.

[The Real Marc]

30 plus teams? Sure thing it's been watered down.

It's like when we were kids collecting hockey cards. Nobody wanted cards from marginal guys. Then five, six, seven years later as a teen, you're no longer paying attention but happen to tune in to a match and whatdoyaknow that crappy nonamer is a solid second-pairing defender - in an expanded league.

It's one of the reasons why there are so many Canadians in MLS these days - more spots to fill, more competition for talent, and less of it out there.

That being said, I'm not sure the league quality is a big attraction for MLS fans.

But I might be wrong. MLS is an anomaly. The wacky salary structure, playoffs, no relegation, role of NCAA, weak second tiers, two countries involved, green card system, relatively secure access to domestic talent throws it all off anyway. I mean, if you can attract Messi to a league like this, and plunk him down in a team with guys like Robinson or Sailor, the whole system has gotta be outta whack.

Edited September 16, 2023 by The Real Marc

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

And, how about MLS? There are presently 29 teams with expansion likely. The quality of teams varies widely. It is too bad that a promotion relegation system is not envisioned so there could be two divisions ("1A" and "1B") of eventually 16 to 18 teams each with two or three relegated/promoted each year.  I realize that the US market is not prepared for this, but it would be interesting. Would it sustain fan interest though? I wonder.

It would be amazing, because it would put the entire league on edge. But the owners don't have the balls, or ovaries, or whatever you are supposed to require, they prefer to think of the negative side than the positive side. Instead of thinking how great it would be LAFC in the top division and Galaxy down, or the Texas teams getting to sneer at each other, they imagine being stuck in the 2nd tier.

It is odd, because apart from the anomaly of Messi right now, normally in MLS fans do not care who is coming to play. In usual circumstances, fans don't come out consistently because a certain team is visiting. And even when there is a star visiting, like I remember Pirlo at BC Place, it may mean a slight attendance jump. I think it is a minor factor in attendance. So being in 2nd you could not even really say, "well we are really missing not having ______ come to visit."

They don't even pretend to try to make the schedule balanced, this is the fourth year in a row that Whitecaps don't play Inter Miami, for example. So they don't correct imbalances in following years. Then they divide it in Conferences a way that is totally wrong, ignoring that some key rivalries are across continent (the Canadian teams vs. Caps, the LA teams vs NYCFC). It is not even clear why  the playoffs couldn't mix conferences starting at quarter finals, for example, so maybe the two best teams, in the same conference, might see each other in a final. All finals, to boot require one set of fans to travel a long distance because of this. It leaves a lot to be desired as a competition format. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Big_M]

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Championat National is the fourth tier I think. He's in Ligue3. Only 1 team in that league has a recent top flight history of note, Sochaux, then I remember Martigues for a few years.

I posted on the Abzi thread that the difference between Ligue1 and Ligue2 is quite a bit greater than the spread between top divisions in the big 4 nations  Noone paid any attention, fine. But my argument is that in Ligue2 there are only 5-6 really strong teams then a big drop.

The third tier not being regional anymore in France might reduce the dropoff but it's still major. They have to subsidize travel for most of the clubs.

The strongest third tiers are in Germany and England because they are single divisions. Probably Germany is most competitive, but that's for another day. I remember when Spain's was 4 divisions, the drop-off was sharp too but those teams were far ahead of France third tier (recently in Spain it was converted into two divisions and is tougher). Serie C has 3 divisions.

France doesn't even have very good soccer infrastructure in smaller cities, far from the level even in Germany or Italy and even further from England of course.

Ligue 1
Ligue 2
National 1
National 2
National 3

Used to be:

Ligue 1
Ligue 2
National 
CFA
CFA2

National (or now National 1) was never regional...but its not fully pro and not fully amateur...its basically between the amateur and pro world...only two fully pro leagues in france so very competitive and hard to get a spot

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 minutes ago, Big_M said:

Ligue 1
Ligue 2
National 1
National 2
National 3

Used to be:

Ligue 1
Ligue 2
National 
CFA
CFA2

National (or now National 1) was never regional...but its not fully pro and not fully amateur...its basically between the amateur and pro world...only two fully pro leagues in france so very competitive and hard to get a spot

Thanks, I erred then. I was pretty sure it used to be regionally divided.

If a full national 3rd tier is that weak in France, it suggests the game isn't as rooted there as some think.

So I think I am correct about the level drop, from 1 to 2 it's much sharper than in any of the big four, I'd even say it's sharper than Netherlands or Belgium or Turkey.

[costarg]

8 hours ago, narduch said:

I know its not a popular opinion to some, but I still think MLS will never reach its full potential unless it cuts its top division to 18-20 teams.

Popular opinion or not, it's the truth.

[MauditYvon]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thanks, I erred then. I was pretty sure it used to be regionally divided.

If a full national 3rd tier is that weak in France, it suggests the game isn't as rooted there as some think.

So I think I am correct about the level drop, from 1 to 2 it's much sharper than in any of the big four, I'd even say it's sharper than Netherlands or Belgium or Turkey.

France made a great move recently. Ligue 1 and Ligue 2 (starting next year) number of teams dropped from 20 to 18. That will increase the level a lot.

Edited September 17, 2023 by MauditYvon

[Unnamed Trialist]

33 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

France made a great move recently. Ligue 1 and Ligue 2 (starting next year) number of teams dropped from 20 to 18. That will increase the level a lot.

This is a longstanding debate that I have followed since the late 80s. 

Originally divisions were smaller to ease travel and logistics, or because you did want to make your top flight elite. And even earlier on, in the earlier 20th century, because there simply were not the teams out there knocking at the door. In Spain the current iteration of league competition began with 10 teams in 1929. Because there were really that few of any profile.

What changed that was when clubs began to calcuate how being in top flight added value to their endeavours. This is even before tv and marketing made it clear, when gate was still the primary source of income: better to have the powerhouses visit your stadium, with the corresponding ticket sales windfall, than not.

Throughout the 90s the thinking began to evolve, as teams got stronger shirt sponsors, as naming rights emerged in Europe (really early this century), and especially as tv rights boomed. Keeping a division smaller (16, 18), meant you were denying 2-4 clubs the chance to benefit from these synergies, not just the odd big gate. And many argued the reasons for the previous exclusions were not clear. Even in Spain they considered reducing to 18 teams, but there were massive complaints about that constituting an overly exclusive group.

England largely "solved" part of this by making sure tv rights were shared into the next tier, providing guarantees and cushions for relegating teams. It has to be the way to go for the rest of leagues, you have to share tv with the second division, at least, to ensure you have two divisions that are strong and the lower tier ones can promote into the higher tier with their rosters already workable. 

In other places, Spain is a case, tv rights are still overly protected by La Liga and this hurts clubs in 2nd tier with proud histories and good stadiums that can't benefit from them to grow even more. It creates a rich club being richer and any poorer club not being able to leverage its way out of the vicious circle.

20 clubs, or more, also is seen as obliging more fixtures (4 more in a balanced league), and is thus seen by some countries as detrimental to clubs thriving in European competitions. 

I see 24 teams in Championship as valid financial logic, taking precedence over sporting logic. It is more important to get all those teams and their players onto a stronger financial footing, than to think of whether the competition is really good or not or more watered down. And here, as I see it, most of the best 2nd divisions are almost always unwatchable, I rarely will even look at it unless there's something greater at stake. So England subsidizes largely unwatchable lower tiers, and I agree with that, mostly thinking that "who cares, I am not going to watch 2nd division in Spain either, no thanks". 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[P-O]

The championship is an amazing league & the best D2 in the world.

The atmospheres are often better than in the PremierLeague with all the plastic fans joining.

I hope we ever get a Canada D1 as unwatchable as the Championship in England. It will mean we are on track to achieve something good.

The core of our football must be below our D1. That's where the local fans get to fall in love with the game.

Watching an amateur game or a D3-4 club.

[Macksam]

1 hour ago, P-O said:

The championship is an amazing league & the best D2 in the world.

The atmospheres are often better than in the PremierLeague with all the plastic fans joining.

I hope we ever get a Canada D1 as unwatchable as the Championship in England. It will mean we are on track to achieve something good.

The core of our football must be below our D1. That's where the local fans get to fall in love with the game.

Watching an amateur game or a D3-4 club.

If you're making fun of UT, I approve.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, P-O said:

The championship is an amazing league & the best D2 in the world.

The atmospheres are often better than in the PremierLeague with all the plastic fans joining.

I hope we ever get a Canada D1 as unwatchable as the Championship in England. It will mean we are on track to achieve something good.

The core of our football must be below our D1. That's where the local fans get to fall in love with the game.

Watching an amateur game or a D3-4 club.

Since I am pretty sure you have never in your life watched a Sporting Gijon vs. Oviedo, I can just assume you are giving an opinion with no idea of what you are talking about. Anyways, making a blanket statement that is untestable is weak, because it suggests you are afraid for your opinion to be tested.

At least I have been in a 2nd division stadium in England, Germany and in Spain, and have watched both on tv. Have you?

There is no evidence the Championship is the best 2nd division in the world. As I argued earlier, it has too many teams, fixture overload, teams out of competition very early, a lot of filler and non-consequential matches. That is not good. A ton of those clubs would be in the 3rd tier in Spain, Germany or Italy. They are not good enough for those leagues, but somehow their mediocre presence helps make Championship better. Backwards logic.

You could even argue, since Spain has the most successful teams in Europa League, that it has more proven quality as you go down the table, but as we said, until 2nd tier teams play each other, we will never know.

Anyways, having watched a bit I would say it is equal to the other four major leagues in quality. And depending on your taste, it could be worse or better. I find they still run like chickens with their heads cut off and it is just a pinball machine, set at a single speed. They famously do not adjust to the game situation, there are crazy comebacks and tragic collapses, which some cite as a sign it is "good". Spain, in contrast, has ball skill and tactics, and then a lot of very physical marking and fouling, but sometimes lacks that push or drive, it is overthought. Spanish 2nd division often just goes nowhere, which I mostly won't watch it. That can be tedious. In Germany I have been surprised by the lower technical level, for me they don't sign on the ball talent like in Spain or even England.

So that's taste, some kids I knew when I was young spent hours glued to pinball machines. I didn't.

[P-O]

54 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Since I am pretty sure you have never in your life watched a Sporting Gijon vs. Oviedo, I can just assume you are giving an opinion with no idea of what you are talking about. Anyways, making a blanket statement that is untestable is weak, because it suggests you are afraid for your opinion to be tested.

At least I have been in a 2nd division stadium in England, Germany and in Spain, and have watched both on tv. Have you?

There is no evidence the Championship is the best 2nd division in the world. As I argued earlier, it has too many teams, fixture overload, teams out of competition very early, a lot of filler and non-consequential matches. That is not good. A ton of those clubs would be in the 3rd tier in Spain, Germany or Italy. They are not good enough for those leagues, but somehow their mediocre presence helps make Championship better. Backwards logic.

You could even argue, since Spain has the most successful teams in Europa League, that it has more proven quality as you go down the table, but as we said, until 2nd tier teams play each other, we will never know.

Anyways, having watched a bit I would say it is equal to the other four major leagues in quality. And depending on your taste, it could be worse or better. I find they still run like chickens with their heads cut off and it is just a pinball machine, set at a single speed. They famously do not adjust to the game situation, there are crazy comebacks and tragic collapses, which some cite as a sign it is "good". Spain, in contrast, has ball skill and tactics, and then a lot of very physical marking and fouling, but sometimes lacks that push or drive, it is overthought. Spanish 2nd division often just goes nowhere, which I mostly won't watch it. That can be tedious. In Germany I have been surprised by the lower technical level, for me they don't sign on the ball talent like in Spain or even England.

So that's taste, some kids I knew when I was young spent hours glued to pinball machines. I didn't.

I have watched (from the stadium, just so you know. I don't need to brag...like you) a lot worst than D2 in Spain & trust me, they were some of the best matches I have seen live.

I have watched D1 & D2 & D3 in many countries. (Canada, USA, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica & Panama)

One of the best match live for the atmosphere was a D3 in Guatemala CSD Puerto San Jose vs Deportivo Champerico. 

I can also enjoy the big one, like a Pumas & America at the Azteca.

 

Next time, ignore my post. Don't bother commenting. I don't need to read your demagogy.

Edited September 18, 2023 by P-O

[InglewoodJack]

Anyways, looking at the level of the French 3rd division, you can see why Smith might’ve not wanted to go to MLS on loan. Every time I watched him in that game he looked solid and probably the best defender on his team, but CF Montreal is (literally) leagues ahead of this team and I don’t know where his minutes would’ve come from.

[Bigandy]

On 9/15/2023 at 5:52 PM, Aird25 said:

Are you paid to slag CPL? Truly baffling comments today 

What do you mean? My comments were about the ligue 3 game that smith played in. I didnt slag on the CPL once. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:56 PM, P-O said:

I have watched (from the stadium, just so you know. I don't need to brag...like you) a lot worst than D2 in Spain & trust me, they were some of the best matches I have seen live.

I have watched D1 & D2 & D3 in many countries. (Canada, USA, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica & Panama)

One of the best match live for the atmosphere was a D3 in Guatemala CSD Puerto San Jose vs Deportivo Champerico. 

I can also enjoy the big one, like a Pumas & America at the Azteca.

 

Next time, ignore my post. Don't bother commenting. I don't need to read your demagogy.

Demagogue, nice, just block me. You're free to.

The only thing that bothers me is that you can just state falsehood, or unjustified views, based on bias, and expect noone to say anything. That seems arrogant.

The top four teams in Championship right now, after 6 games, are not better than the top four in Spain 2nd tier. I'd say fairly clearly, except for Leganés. Preston is a lower level team than most of them and I watched a chunk last weekend: Millar looks great at Preston and didn't at Basel because Basel is at a higher level, obviously. It's easier for him. 

Espanyol and Zaragoza would challenge to win the Championship and promote I'd say. The top 7 team teams in Spain 2nd division all have strong top flight traditions and top flight stadiums, except Leganés. After that teams drop off.

 

[P-O]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Demagogue, nice, just block me. You're free to.

The only thing that bothers me is that you can just state falsehood, or unjustified views, based on bias, and expect noone to say anything. That seems arrogant.

The top four teams in Championship right now, after 6 games, are not better than the top four in Spain 2nd tier. I'd say fairly clearly, except for Leganés. Preston is a lower level team than most of them and I watched a chunk last weekend: Millar looks great at Preston and didn't at Basel because Basel is at a higher level, obviously. It's easier for him. 

Espanyol and Zaragoza would challenge to win the Championship and promote I'd say. The top 7 team teams in Spain 2nd division all have strong top flight traditions and top flight stadiums, except Leganés. After that teams drop off.

 

Falsehood? Where? Quote me on my falsehood.

 

And the bottom 5 Teams in La Liga wouldn't be top of the table in the Championship.

Every league has its style, its schedule adapted to the league they play.

You talk a lot, and you try to sell your opinion as cash. What your opinion really is, is your opinion.

I don't agree with it & I see no reason to explain more as you always want to be right 

[Shway]

30 minutes ago, P-O said:

I don't agree with it & I see no reason to explain more as you always want to be right 

The forum bully, with his condescending know it all ways...

I've just learned maturity is to simply ignore him...but you know, not literally ignore him because we all need the Spanish expert insights to keep up with the Larin reports that come hot off the press. How else will we know! 

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Shway said:

The forum bully, with his condescending know it all ways...

I've just learned maturity is to simply ignore him...but you know, not literally ignore him because we all need the Spanish expert insights to keep up with the Larin reports that come hot off the press. How else will we know! 

It takes discipline 

@Unnamed Trialist you are a valuable contribute here for your Spanish insights. I know Shway is being sarcastic here but I actually do enjoy what you have to say on Spain, but I for one don't really enjoy when you go on these crusades against English football in a way that over inflates the value of Spanish football. You were doing the same in the Liam Millar thread and it just invites criticism unecessarily and gets us off topic. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just to get on track, I happen to know someone at Girona CF, who does methodology they call it, and was in touch with him last January about Justin Smith.

I argued that a guy being called up by Galtier and on the bench for Nice was a good prospect, also what we saw with our u20s, and he was being buried at Rouen. 

I know people on staff there as many, including sporting director Quique Cárcel (not my contact), used to run a high performance club my kid was at maybe 11-12 years ago

Edited September 20, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[InglewoodJack]

51 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just to get on track, I happen to know someone at Girona CF, who does methodology they call it, and was in touch with him last January about Justin Smith.

I argued that a guy being called up by Galtier and on the bench for Nice was a good prospect, also what we saw with our u20s, and he was being buried at Rouen. 

I know people on staff there as many, including sporting director Quique Cárcel (not my contact), used to run a high performance club my kid was at maybe 11-12 years ago

Was Girona interested in him?

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Was Girona interested in him?

I am not an agent and have no pull, they just hear you and go on their way. 

The person I contacted, Santi Pou, is very pleasant and a lovely guy, but all the same. I also know Toto, Ildefons Fernández, the technical secretary, he's from my neighbourhood, I have run into both of them at lower division games over the years (such as watching Girona B). All former pros and excellent people.

I am not surprised, but a little disappointed, that the opinion of a mere fan can be just ignored. I suppose teams have hundreds of tips of this nature and in the end they can't deal with it all, it is too much pressure and too many guys who only do this to grab a commission. Our Canadian mentality, and mine in this case, it probably too innocent: hey, I got a tip (but what's in it for you, how much do you want?). There are so many wheeling and dealing that a comment about a player, even in this case a guy on salary at Nice, which is a very reasonable place for a Liga club to look, just gets thrown in with the rest. 

Years ago, when a guy on this board (Stoppage Time) and I tried to contact the Whitecaps about Dani Fernandes, when ST called Lenarduzzi and conversed with him and I spoke with Dani who was in Athens, we were doing it altruistically. But the player directly told me that if he were to sign he'd pay us a commission. It is so automatic, the way things are done, but suggests just trying to promote Canadian soccer and not making a dime off it is not what the world of soccer expects.

My thinking was that Girona had to restructure it's B team a few years back and dropped a few levels, so that even now their B team is in 5th tier, probably lower than any other B team of a Liga club. So that is easy, an easy way to try someone, in a lower level B team. To no avail.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bigandy]

He seems to be starting in ligue 3 and getting 90s 

For comparison, piette had 2 bundesliga 2 appearances at the same age and 28 appearances in the 4th tier. He then went to the 3rd bundesliga for the next year and a half where he got consistent games and then div 3 spain for 1.5 years. 

I'd say smith is on better trajectory as these are loans and hes already had 6 ligue 2 appearances.  I can see him turning into a johnston level player at this rate. 

[narduch]

Subbed out in the 30th minute yesterday in a 2-1 over Cholet.

I'm assuming he was injured 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Subbed out in the 30th minute yesterday in a 2-1 over Cholet.

I'm assuming he was injured 

It isn't clear how bad it is yet; sounds like something that was painful upon impact.

 

"Avez-vous des informations sur la blessure de Justin Smith ?

Non, pas encore. Ça semble être un mauvais coup, un gros choc."

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/football/us-avranches/national-damien-ott-avranches-cetait-un-match-a-forte-pression-mais-on-la-bien-gere-f789eb7e-b1ea-11ee-889e-f4c642b1c23a

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On Friday, he was back from injury and in the starting lineup.

He made a howler of a back pass which led to the first Marignane goal. 😬

https://actu.fr/normandie/avranches_50025/football-lus-avranches-battue-4-1-par-les-relegables-du-fc-marignane_60595611.html

Avranches then gave up two more goals and he was subbed out at the half. 

Avranches would go on to lose 4-1.