Ottawa CPL Club

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

I agree with Steve Sandor that refusing sanctioning for 2019 would accomplish nothing. I think it’s a formality I just find it interesting that Mark Goudie insists that the Fury are sanctioned for 2019 yet the CSA felt it important to comment and state that it is not completed.

I agree as well. Fury should play the 2019 USL season. However, the league must listen to other Ottawa bids and pick the best.

If the Fury is the best bid, so be it but as the NHL thought us, that hardly matters that much... it's who the league WANTS to do business with that ultimately trumps it all.

It's a business and some on the board needs to realize it.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ansem

[Cblake]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

If there's an Ottawa team for CPL with their own stadium plans, how long do you expect the CSA to sanction the Fury in USL?

Not long in my opinion

I wonder if the issue of allowing TFCII to play in the USL could help Ottawa remain, as the legal argument could be interesting if they allow one to stay and not the other? I don't see the fact the TFCII will be playing in the USL D3 League next season as that is really just an internal shift that falls under the USSF.

[Bison44]

23 minutes ago, Cblake said:

I wonder if the issue of allowing TFCII to play in the USL could help Ottawa remain, as the legal argument could be interesting if they allow one to stay and not the other? I don't see the fact the TFCII will be playing in the USL D3 League next season as that is really just an internal shift that falls under the USSF.

I think the fact that the CPL guys dont want the farm club type reserve teams in the league takes care of that.   They might take the position that its ok if the the MLS clubs reserve team play in the MLS reserve team D-3. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Bison44

[ted]

4 hours ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

It's really not that simple. I don't want to come across like a know-it-all here, but I've got a degree in law and want to explain a few things.  

Sanctioning bodies are not gods. They can regulate your profession, or your league, or your dental practice, but they cannot influence WHERE you practice.

Wow, I'm not a lawyer but I think you maybe missed something?

A franchisee can be and usually is, restricted geographically. These USL FRANCHISES have an advantage in that they are actually portable. It is common to relocate, usually via sale to new owners. Since the actual soccer doesn't make money, but rather they generate actual profit through the sale of franchises and a share of expansion fees, I don't think you can make a case that their "business" would be harmed by the application of the rules.

But even if you could, the CSA is entitled to not renew an exemption to their policies. The same policies which OSEG recognized and agreed to when they first applied and every time they asked for a renewal to their exemption.

In the end, if the Fury wish to be part of a FIFA-affiliated league, they need to follow the rules. If they don't want to be part of a FIFA-affilliated league they are free to do something else. The CSA does not prevent soccer being played "professionally" (see: CSL) they simply regulate who gets to be part of the FIFA family.

[An Observer]

Personally, I don't think this was a wise business move for Ottawa. 

First, they claim that they are concerned about the smaller cap size and they will need to dismantle their team.  As others have said, its something that happens every year in the USL.  Moreover, I suspect the CPL would overall be a bigger draw than the USL so with a lower salary base, you are likely to do better financially than worse (even if travel is more as some have said). So from a business point of view, what does it matter if you have to jettison a few players.  Big deal really.  

Second, now what are their options.  USL is clearly not a long run viable option as its highly unlikely that CSA will sanctioned them there long term.  So at some point they are going to be forced into the CPL and at that point, the expansion fee maybe more than it would be for them now.  I am not sure that they will generate a lot of sympathy from the CPL to get something lower.  And it is possible some other ownership groups may emerge in Ottawa that are willing to pay the fee.  If they jumped to the CPL now, they always would have the possibility of going back to the USL if the CPL folded (ie. like the former CSL sides went to the A-League in the 90s).  So yes, there is a risk but not sure how great.

To play devils advocate to myself, they may be making the decision to stay in the USL to gather parts of the expansion fees (assuming they get anything) that are being paid by new joiners; see how the CPL does, join latter at the same fee, and not risk joining a league that may fold and require them to pay another expansion fee to join back to the USL.  I would have thought they might be able to get a waiver for a few years if they left the USL of any future expansion fee if they were to rejoin. Even if that is their strategy, I think its riskier than they may think as they may find they have to pay significantly more than they thought to join later or fold as the CSA doesn't sanction them anymore.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, ted said:

Wow, I'm not a lawyer but I think you maybe missed something?

A franchisee can be and usually is, restricted geographically. These USL FRANCHISES have an advantage in that they are actually portable. It is common to relocate, usually via sale to new owners. Since the actual soccer doesn't make money, but rather they generate actual profit through the sale of franchises and a share of expansion fees, I don't think you can make a case that their "business" would be harmed by the application of the rules.

But even if you could, the CSA is entitled to not renew an exemption to their policies. The same policies which OSEG recognized and agreed to when they first applied and every time they asked for a renewal to their exemption.

In the end, if the Fury wish to be part of a FIFA-affiliated league, they need to follow the rules. If they don't want to be part of a FIFA-affilliated league they are free to do something else. The CSA does not prevent soccer being played "professionally" (see: CSL) they simply regulate who gets to be part of the FIFA family.

You summed that up in about a third of the time it took me. Thanks

[yellowsweatygorilla]

Got annoyed listening to Mark Goudie on TSN and the constant suggestion that CPL is below division 2 and  the need for Ottawa to stay in division for the sake of Canadian football since apparently it would not be beneficial to have CMNT players loaned there. Was just thinking how great it would be if CPL can challenge that point by having the muscle to pouch most of Ottawa's players - seeing as most USL contracts are year-to-year anyways. 

[Ansem]

14 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Got annoyed listening to Mark Goudie on TSN and the constant suggestion that CPL is below division 2 and  the need for Ottawa to stay in division for the sake of Canadian football since apparently it would not be beneficial to have CMNT players loaned there. Was just thinking how great it would be if CPL can challenge that point by having the muscle to pouch most of Ottawa's players - seeing as most USL contracts are year-to-year anyways. 

Wouldn't be surprised if the league has moved on from the Fury and are actively trying to make it work with another investor 

[Aird25]

28 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Got annoyed listening to Mark Goudie on TSN and the constant suggestion that CPL is below division 2 and  the need for Ottawa to stay in division for the sake of Canadian football since apparently it would not be beneficial to have CMNT players loaned there. Was just thinking how great it would be if CPL can challenge that point by having the muscle to pouch most of Ottawa's players - seeing as most USL contracts are year-to-year anyways. 

Agreed. I’m disappointed by the decision from Ottawa but I can understand and tolerate it. Denigrating the league to justify the decision though, is unacceptable in mind. 

[Ansem]

Deleted 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ansem

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

How burned would you say that bridge is now?

I only speak for myself but I’ve gone from cheering for them from afar, to hoping the CPL owners target their players and fans. 

[ironcub14]

15 hours ago, ted said:

A stadium that is too big, playing games in a league of cities that are virtually meaningless?

I think a smaller venue and/or playing against communities you know in a National League will be enough for some supporters to jump ship.

You haven't been on deeply in the Fury twitterverse/FB groups like some of us have, there are very few people that would jump to another Ottawa team that would rival the Fury, even among those who actively support CPL.

[ironcub14]

9 hours ago, An Observer said:

Personally, I don't think this was a wise business move for Ottawa. 

First, they claim that they are concerned about the smaller cap size and they will need to dismantle their team.  As others have said, its something that happens every year in the USL.  Moreover, I suspect the CPL would overall be a bigger draw than the USL so with a lower salary base, you are likely to do better financially than worse (even if travel is more as some have said). So from a business point of view, what does it matter if you have to jettison a few players.  Big deal really.  

Second, now what are their options.  USL is clearly not a long run viable option as its highly unlikely that CSA will sanctioned them there long term.  So at some point they are going to be forced into the CPL and at that point, the expansion fee maybe more than it would be for them now.  I am not sure that they will generate a lot of sympathy from the CPL to get something lower.  And it is possible some other ownership groups may emerge in Ottawa that are willing to pay the fee.  If they jumped to the CPL now, they always would have the possibility of going back to the USL if the CPL folded (ie. like the former CSL sides went to the A-League in the 90s).  So yes, there is a risk but not sure how great.

To play devils advocate to myself, they may be making the decision to stay in the USL to gather parts of the expansion fees (assuming they get anything) that are being paid by new joiners; see how the CPL does, join latter at the same fee, and not risk joining a league that may fold and require them to pay another expansion fee to join back to the USL.  I would have thought they might be able to get a waiver for a few years if they left the USL of any future expansion fee if they were to rejoin. Even if that is their strategy, I think its riskier than they may think as they may find they have to pay significantly more than they thought to join later or fold as the CSA doesn't sanction them anymore.

A fantastic observation overall with the medium-term in mind, fully agreed.

Those who are fully pro-Fury/OSEG will be uttering the $8 million USD expansion fee that Mark Goudie mentioned for years to come by the way.

My response to that would be that those Fury fans who repeat that figure are professing a fully self-defeating mentality, where they actively believe the CPL will undoubtedly fail and that they need to run back to the safe haven of USL. This fully reflects the lack of leadership that both OSEG and some of the Fury fans are showing for the CPL launch.

Edited September 11, 2018 by ironcub14

[Initial B]

The Fury is a business, so I think it's worthwhile to look at where the money is going. It would seem to make more sense to play in the CPL than the USL if the Fury don't have to change anything about their operations or roster (except maybe higher transportation costs). So the only thing keeping them in USL is some sort of financial cost-benefit analysis. 

The CPL is saying they have been talking with the Fury for months, but only recently found out the Fury aren't dancing with them in 2019. What has happened financially in the last couple of months to make them pull out?

• FC Cincinnati is joining MLS and 7 teams are joining USL in 2019
• Nashville SC is joining MLS in 2020

I'm guessing that the Fury are in line for a major financial boost from expansion fee dividends over the next 2 years, hence why they're saying they might join the league in 2021.

Follow the money... 

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I only speak for myself but I’ve gone from cheering for them from afar, to hoping the CPL owners target their players and fans. 

Yeah, my dream scenario is for the 2019 season to start after a huge turnover in Ottawa's roster, I want there to be a loss of fans for games in Ottawa (look at what you are making me do Ottawa, hoping for fewer fans!), for CPL teams to have larger attendance at games than Ottawa, and for a CPL team to knock Ottawa out of the Voyageurs Cup. That's my wish list. Oh, and of course then for Ottawa Fury to come to CPL for 2020 and for their attendance to rebound to their highest levels ever and for everyone to be happy.

[Alex D]

35 minutes ago, Initial B said:

The Fury is a business, so I think it's worthwhile to look at where the money is going. It would seem to make more sense to play in the CPL than the USL if the Fury don't have to change anything about their operations or roster (except maybe higher transportation costs). So the only thing keeping them in USL is some sort of financial cost-benefit analysis. 

The CPL is saying they have been talking with the Fury for months, but only recently found out the Fury aren't dancing with them in 2019. What has happened financially in the last couple of months to make them pull out?

• FC Cincinnati is joining MLS and 7 teams are joining USL in 2019
• Nashville SC is joining MLS in 2020

I'm guessing that the Fury are in line for a major financial boost from expansion fee dividends over the next 2 years, hence why they're saying they might join the league in 2021.

Follow the money... 

The USL doesn't work like the MLS. OSEG gets nothing from expansion fees. It all goes to the USL's parent company NuRock holdings. 

[Ansem]

49 minutes ago, Initial B said:

The Fury is a business, so I think it's worthwhile to look at where the money is going. It would seem to make more sense to play in the CPL than the USL if the Fury don't have to change anything about their operations or roster (except maybe higher transportation costs). So the only thing keeping them in USL is some sort of financial cost-benefit analysis. 

The CPL is saying they have been talking with the Fury for months, but only recently found out the Fury aren't dancing with them in 2019. What has happened financially in the last couple of months to make them pull out?

• FC Cincinnati is joining MLS and 7 teams are joining USL in 2019
• Nashville SC is joining MLS in 2020

I'm guessing that the Fury are in line for a major financial boost from expansion fee dividends over the next 2 years, hence why they're saying they might join the league in 2021.

Follow the money... 

I'm not questioning their business decision which is equally logical.

However, I keep hammering how poorly they handled this and are still handling it publicly by blindsiding both the CSA and CPL without giving them any notice. It's disgusting that they are trying to spin this publicly to their fans by branding CPL as inferior and throwing numbers/statements that isn't theirs to share.

From a business point of view, that's idiotic and shows a real lack of common sense and intelligence from OSEG. You're unnecessarily making enemies of CSA and CPL...2 organizations who will be holding the fate of your operations in the palm of their hands if

A.CPL drop the Fury and pursue another investor for a CPL team in Ottawa

B. The CSA pulls the plug on sanctioning.

100%... I understand the rational of their decision... but diplomacy, tact and working with both organizations by giving them a heads up and a joint PR plan to spin this would have helped everyone. Devaluating a brand that you claim to want to join later and will be watching closely is insulting and Bettman blacklisted potential investors for far less than that, look how fast MLS moved on from NY Cosmos and their only crime was being delusional on their value and demands. They too thought they were "king shit" in NY and that MLS wouldn't surpass NASL...look what happened.

Trying to pour cold water on CPL to spin this to your fans will backfire and they'll have no one else but themselves to blame.

Read Clanachan statement on the Fury. Unlike the Fury who, keeps putting down the league officially and unofficially to spin their narrative to their fans, opened the door for the future...Clanachan DID NO SUCH THING. Nowhere did he talked about open doors, he talked other investors, Ottawa market being important and criticizing the sanction of Canadian teams in US Leagues. That's telling.

I like the "Gary Bettman" in him because you think that Bettman, Garber and other commissioners would accept this? Never. Acting like this means you're dead to them and they move on.

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ansem

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, Kent said:

Yeah, my dream scenario is for the 2019 season to start after a huge turnover in Ottawa's roster, I want there to be a loss of fans for games in Ottawa (look at what you are making me do Ottawa, hoping for fewer fans!), for CPL teams to have larger attendance at games than Ottawa, and for a CPL team to knock Ottawa out of the Voyageurs Cup. That's my wish list. Oh, and of course then for Ottawa Fury to come to CPL for 2020 and for their attendance to rebound to their highest levels ever and for everyone to be happy.

I wish for a new investor to found an CPL team in Ottawa. They are still spinning this as CPL being lower quality than USL. That truly makes me sick

[Bison44]

4 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Got annoyed listening to Mark Goudie on TSN and the constant suggestion that CPL is below division 2 and  the need for Ottawa to stay in division for the sake of Canadian football since apparently it would not be beneficial to have CMNT players loaned there. Was just thinking how great it would be if CPL can challenge that point by having the muscle to pouch most of Ottawa's players - seeing as most USL contracts are year-to-year anyways. 

Is there any chance Montreal is putting their 2 cents in on this?  They might not see any benefit of having Crepeau/T MG, Kinumbe, Bayiha, Sanon, Petrasso, GWB etc all go to the fledging CPL to get minutes.  Maybe the pipeline of loaned CDN MLS talent will dry up for Ottawa.

[ted]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I wish for a new investor to found an CPL team in Ottawa. They are still spinning this as CPL being lower quality than USL. That truly makes me sick

I'd rather they saw the light and came aboard. It doesn't do anyone any good if they go rogue and/or go belly up.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I wish for a new investor to found an CPL team in Ottawa. They are still spinning this as CPL being lower quality than USL. That truly makes me sick

To add on to what Ted said, the burn it down and rebuild it method you want will take longer than them being convinced they are better off to join in a year or two.

In your dream scenario, the Fury play in USL next year and lets say optimistically there is a new ownership group that pops up in that time. They say they are ready to go in 2020, but of course the Fury won't want to go down without a fight. The Fury have what I'm told (I've never been to Ottawa, so I don't know the stadiums) is the best stadium option, so that probably isn't available to the new Ottawa group. The Fury may sue to keep their sanctioning in 2020 (like CSL did and got one more year of sanctioning before it was taken away). So in the best case scenario you have 2 Ottawa teams in 2020, and the CPL one is less established and in likely a worse stadium situation. The fan base is split and it's entirely possible the Fury will hold on enough to have a greater share of fans. Lets say despite that, by 2021 the Fury have folded, and you've got that greater share of fans upset about it all, and maybe not so happy to hop on board with the new Ottawa team. It would take time to heal some wounds, etc, and get the maximum potential out of Ottawa.

Or, season 1 in CPL goes pretty well and the Fury decide to join in 2020 or 2021, and there is much rejoicing.

I'm not happy with Ottawa Fury's decision either, and I agree that CPL doesn't really have to hold their position in the league, but the scorched earth method will do exactly that, scorch the earth.

[Cheeta]

29 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Is there any chance Montreal is putting their 2 cents in on this?  They might not see any benefit of having Crepeau/T MG, Kinumbe, Bayiha, Sanon, Petrasso, GWB etc all go to the fledging CPL to get minutes.  Maybe the pipeline of loaned CDN MLS talent will dry up for Ottawa.

Reading my mind.  Last minute intervention from the "parent club" as things went from talk to action with this whole CPL thingy.

Honestly can't imagine why Montreal would be that concerned about it, at least to the point where some stern words needed to be spoken.

Maybe MLS HQ?  Don't know.  Maybe just overthinking all this nonsense.

[Cblake]

16 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Reading my mind.  Last minute intervention from the "parent club" as things went from talk to action with this whole CPL thingy.

Honestly can't imagine why Montreal would be that concerned about it, at least to the point where some stern words needed to be spoken.

Maybe MLS HQ?  Don't know.  Maybe just overthinking all this nonsense.

The MLS/USL affiliate setup is really nothing more than a formal loan agreement between the two teams. In fact there really is no obligation by the USL team to even play the players the receive as some MLS teams have found in the past. As we have seen it does not stop the USL team from getting players on loan from other MLS teams. Doniel Henry for instance was loaned to Ottawa by Vancouver even though their USL affiliate is in Fresno. 

So there is no guarantee Ottawa will benefit the same next season from their affiliation with Montreal as they are now.

That played a part in some MLS teams fielding their own USL teams as at one time all three Canadian teams did. Now on that front some MLS teams truely view these as a development tool and putting very little if any commercial effort into them. While others such as Montreal and Vancouver wanted to have at least some financial viability. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

To add on to what Ted said, the burn it down and rebuild it method you want will take longer than them being convinced they are better off to join in a year or two.

In your dream scenario, the Fury play in USL next year and lets say optimistically there is a new ownership group that pops up in that time. They say they are ready to go in 2020, but of course the Fury won't want to go down without a fight. The Fury have what I'm told (I've never been to Ottawa, so I don't know the stadiums) is the best stadium option, so that probably isn't available to the new Ottawa group. The Fury may sue to keep their sanctioning in 2020 (like CSL did and got one more year of sanctioning before it was taken away). So in the best case scenario you have 2 Ottawa teams in 2020, and the CPL one is less established and in likely a worse stadium situation. The fan base is split and it's entirely possible the Fury will hold on enough to have a greater share of fans. Lets say despite that, by 2021 the Fury have folded, and you've got that greater share of fans upset about it all, and maybe not so happy to hop on board with the new Ottawa team. It would take time to heal some wounds, etc, and get the maximum potential out of Ottawa.

Or, season 1 in CPL goes pretty well and the Fury decide to join in 2020 or 2021, and there is much rejoicing.

I'm not happy with Ottawa Fury's decision either, and I agree that CPL doesn't really have to hold their position in the league, but the scorched earth method will do exactly that, scorch the earth.

I'm a flawed individual lol

Just like the Cosmos, MLS didn't want to do business with them after their outrageous demands. 

The league started from scratch with NYRB in Jersey them NYCFC and didnt look back regardless of how much established fanbase they already had.

I don't doubt that Fury loyalist would stay with the Fury just like some Cosmos fans did. However, judging by social media of some Fury fans, they wanted CPL pretty bad and were both angry and disappointed. No doubt some of them backs the new CPL team.

The heart of the battle is the casual. Who stands to win more? The one on TV and easily accessible on medias or the one who's not? The one facing Rochester or other unknown location or Calgary-Edmonton-Halifax-Quebec-Victoria?

It's been done before and I guess that's why the league wouldn't lose sleep over pushing ahead in Ottawa knowing the CSA could shut the Fury down. Fury has no case in court.

If Fury gets back to their sense and wants in, a whole lot of apologizing, a whole lot of sucking up and 100% compliance to CPL rules would be necessary. Don't want to hear the word negotiations because quite frankly, they have no leverage.

I confess, I'm a flaw individual... I get angry and I hold grudges from time to time. Here's some room for thoughts for everyone reading this.

CPL commissioner takes his orders from the owners, not the CSA. Those owners are multimillionaires and billionaires who didn't make their fortune by being "nice" and "forgiving" with whoever messing with their interests, that's business. That's how the NHL did it when Balsillie and other owners/potential owners took them on and that's what other leagues like MLS do business. The idea that owners of CPL would be any different is laughable. The tone of Clanachan was obvious and this was from the owners. They aren't pleased and won't forget this. 

At the end of the day, it's business, not charity