Ottawa CPL Club

[m-g-williams]

14 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

The Fury coach saying that he hopes he can transform the roster between now and the start of next season, and blaming its current composition for the lack of success this season.

Doesn't sound like a team too worried about keeping their roster intact to me.

I still can't believe they wouldn't make the jump to CPL. Rotted.

[Ansem]

56 minutes ago, Sébastien said:

The Fury coach saying that he hopes he can transform the roster between now and the start of next season, and blaming its current composition for the lack of success this season.

Doesn't sound like a team too worried about keeping their roster intact to me.

You have to think that CPL will be more attractive to some of their players.

Oh well, hope the Fury have fun in an irrelevant league next year

[Ams1984]

6 hours ago, Ansem said:

You have to think that CPL will be more attractive to some of their players.

Oh well, hope the Fury have fun in an irrelevant league next year

Yes, it is a truly baffling decision to me. No matter the roster challenges, the CanPL is clearly going to be a much more relevant league than USL (here in Canada).

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ams1984 said:

Yes, it is a truly baffling decision to me. No matter the roster challenges, the CanPL is clearly going to be a much more relevant league than USL (here in Canada).

Their decisions further demonstrate to which extends they risk overplaying their hands.

Sure, within the niche box of Canadian Soccer fans, we are a tiny minority of what's out there. I was discussing this with a friend and I pointed out that outside Ottawa (the few fans they have) and Canadian soccer fans, who knows or gives a F about the Ottawa Fury?

Not many

How many cups and championship have they won to show for it? How many time have they pulled a Montreal Impact 2009 in Champions League?

None

Not making the playoffs doesn't help their value either. A "Calgary Foothills" type of run in USL would have strengthen their hands at trying to call the shots but....not really what happened here. That's how nuts their decisions is. Lowers their value if you ask me.

I do hope they see the light and do a lot of sucking up and apologizing to CPL to get into the league by 2020...TOPS. Otherwise, I fully support CPL making it work with another group who's 100% IN and 100% believe in CPL... and then permanently moveson from OSEG.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ansem

[lazlo_80]

Asking honestly. Where does this perception that CPL holds all the cards in negotiations with Ottawa stem from?

I would've agreed more if the player budgets being reported were closer to the 1.5 mil we heard reported earlier and such. But I tend to think there's an onus on CPL that it's a reasonable level able to gain some sort of traction and attention in the markets it's currently in before Ottawa has to kneel down and kiss the ring.

 

[Winnipeg Fury]

34 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Asking honestly. Where does this perception that CPL holds all the cards in negotiations with Ottawa stem from?

I would've agreed more if the player budgets being reported were closer to the 1.5 mil we heard reported earlier and such. But I tend to think there's an onus on CPL that it's a reasonable level able to gain some sort of traction and attention in the markets it's currently in before Ottawa has to kneel down and kiss the ring.

 

The Fury have opted for an American option over CPL.  Fine by me. That is their choice.

But as a Valour season ticket holder, and CPL supporter, I expect the CPL brass to be working diligently towards placing a CPL team in Ottawa.  And I could care less if it's the Fury.

 

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

Asking honestly. Where does this perception that CPL holds all the cards in negotiations with Ottawa stem from?

Just like any other league, they have the luxury to pick and choose who joins their league. If they blacklist OSEG and the CSA stop sanctioning them... they are in a all new level of fucked... L1O, sell to someone who wants to go to CPL or fold.

1 hour ago, lazlo_80 said:

I would've agreed more if the player budgets being reported were closer to the 1.5 mil we heard reported earlier and such. But I tend to think there's an onus on CPL that it's a reasonable level able to gain some sort of traction and attention in the markets it's currently in before Ottawa has to kneel down and kiss the ring.

If CPL makes clear they are moving on while the CSA refuses to sanction past 2019... that's exactly what they'll end up doing...

Kneeling before ZOD.

I mean kneeling before the CPL and kiss the ring for them to let you join. Contrarily to popular belief, nothing forces the CPL to accept OSEG as owners.

If they join CPL, a lot of kneeling and kissing happened backstage 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ansem

[lazlo_80]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Just like any other league, they have the luxury to pick and choose who joins their league. If they blacklist OSEG and the CSA stop sanctioning them... they are in a all new level of fucked... L1O, sell to someone who wants to go to CPL or fold.

If CPL makes clear they are moving on while the CSA refuses to sanction past 2019... that's exactly what they'll end up doing...

Kneeling before ZOD.

I mean kneeling before the CPL and kiss the ring for them to let you join. Contrarily to popular belief, nothing forces the CPL to accept OSEG as owners.

If they join CPL, a lot of kneeling and kissing happened backstage 

 

The stopping of sanctioning is an interesting move...I think that's the nuclear option.

They need the fury as much as the fury should probably want them, and I think cooler heads will prevail eventually.

If the CPL wants to move on in that market it's just so many hurdles that make their life so much harder. From facility to the fact the Fury will likely have a better team fielding more high calibre Canadian players (at least in the short term) to trying to sell a potential owner on trying to sub divide a small target market to begin with. Like I said I just really don't think the CPL is in the power position that other people here seem to believe where it's "Those Ottawa Fury bastards will have to pay! muawahahahaha"...The CPL has alot of work to do to prove they'll be a relevant national brand and more stable than the USL. 

 

 

 

 

[Ansem]

33 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

They need the fury as much as the fury should probably want them, and I think cooler heads will prevail eventually.

After a whole lot of kneeling and a whole lot of sucking. ? 

33 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

If the CPL wants to move on in that market it's just so many hurdles that make their life so much harder. From facility to the fact the Fury will likely have a better team fielding more high calibre Canadian players (at least in the short term) to trying to sell a potential owner on trying to sub divide a small target market to begin with. Like I said I just really don't think the CPL is in the power position that other people here seem to believe where it's "Those Ottawa Fury bastards will have to pay! muawahahahaha"...The CPL has alot of work to do to prove they'll be a relevant national brand and more stable than the USL. 

The league says that other groups are interested in Ottawa. Is it Ottawa or Gatineau? Remains to be seen. The league will assess those group and go with whoever has the most solid plan. Perhaps OSEG wake up. In business, you tend to do business with partners who's a 100% in it with you, trustworthy and see eye to eye with their partners... not unpredictable people who aren't totally buying into your project and blindsides you publicly. If that's how you do business, I'll be sure to avoid you.

CPL ownership aren't the CSA. If the league was owned and operated by the CSA, I would have conceded that you might have a point but CPL ownership are made of successful and rich business people who made their fortune by not putting up with shit like this and crushing their competitors. You screw with their money and investment, they crush you, that's business. 

Are you telling me that the other major leagues would have put up with this farce? No and I was glad to see some"Bettman" in Clanachan message after this, purposely bot leaving a door open to OSEG, crushing their take of the event and openly talking other groups interested in the Ottawa market.

Why are you expecting these guys to put up with it and kneel before the mighty "Fury" who can't even make the playoff in USL when 2008 USL impact not only made CCL but went far with a CANADIAN HEAVY ROSTER? Wake up. CPL is not the CSA and the FURY are being made into something mystical and overrated for some crazy reason that I simply don't get.

Lastly, outside of Ottawa and this forum, who gives a F***about USL in Canada???? 99% don't give a crap and I could safely say that the majority doesn't even know what it is. CPL can opt to move on with another group and start a team as the league was clear that Ottawa matters to the league. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ansem

[A_Gagne]

From a strategic standpoint I can understand where they're coming from. They have a proven business model that doesn't include regular flights to Halifax and Victoria, and the viability of the CanPL is still very much an open question.

I think the Fury is rolling the dice, hoping they can wait until all of the leagues cost and revenue estimates turn into actual numbers. It's a gamble though, as they run the risk the CanPL gives Ottawa franchise rights to a competing ownership group, or that the CSA tries to force there hand by revoking their right to play in USL.

It's a gamble, but they're potentially not wrong to make it. The only scenario where they're forced into CanPL on unfavourable terms is if the CSA revokes their right to play in USL. If I were them I would bet that the CSA doesn't revoke their sanctioning unless (a) there is a viable Ottawa franchise alternative, and it's unlikely that there is one at this time, or (b) the league is a smashing success, and thus there's no need to cater to the Fury, in which case they might as well join anyway, or (c) the league is a flop and ends up on extremely shaky ground, and the CSA seeks to impose their joining the league as a way to prop it up, in which case they were right not to join it in the first place. 

So strategically it would seem that the risks of joining the league now could far outweigh the risks of a wait and see approach. 

As a fan I don't like it, but I do understand it. Also lets face it, not every owner can or should be expected to loose millions of dollars of their own money in the name of Canadian footie (à la Tom and Dave Fath), so I can respect their decision. But that being said, if their gamble doesn't pay off, I'm not going to loose any sleep on their behalf either.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

From a strategic standpoint I can understand where they're coming from. They have a proven business model that doesn't include regular flights to Halifax and Victoria, and the viability of the CanPL is still very much an open question.

I think the Fury is rolling the dice, hoping they can wait until all of the leagues cost and revenue estimates turn into actual numbers. It's a gamble though, as they run the risk the CanPL gives Ottawa franchise rights to a competing ownership group, or that the CSA tries to force there hand by revoking their right to play in USL.

It's a gamble, but they're potentially not wrong to make it. The only scenario where they're forced into CanPL on unfavourable terms is if the CSA revokes their right to play in USL. If I were them I would bet that the CSA doesn't revoke their sanctioning unless (a) there is a viable Ottawa franchise alternative, and it's unlikely that there is one at this time, or (b) the league is a smashing success, and thus there's no need to cater to the Fury, in which case they might as well join anyway, or (c) the league is a flop and ends up on extremely shaky ground, and the CSA seeks to impose their joining the league as a way to prop it up, in which case they were right not to join it in the first place. 

So strategically it would seem that the risks of joining the league now could far outweigh the risks of a wait and see approach. 

As a fan I don't like it, but I do understand it. Also lets face it, not every owner can or should be expected to loose millions of dollars of their own money in the name of Canadian footie (à la Tom and Dave Fath), so I can respect their decision. But that being said, if their gamble doesn't pay off, I'm not going to loose any sleep on their behalf either.

I don't disagree with the decision. 

As a courtesy, they should have informed both CPL (who talked to them for years and set the market aside for them) and the CSA in advance. Both were blindsided by the Fury going public with no advance notice.

That's a sure way to burn your bridges

[lazlo_80]

39 minutes ago, Ansem said:

After a whole lot of kneeling and a whole lot of sucking. ? 

The league says that other groups are interested in Ottawa. Is it Ottawa or Gatineau? Remains to be seen. The league will assess those group and go with whoever has the most solid plan. Perhaps OSEG wake up. In business, you tend to do business with partners who's a 100% in it with you, trustworthy and see eye to eye with their partners... not unpredictable people who aren't totally buying into your project and blindsides you publicly. If that's how you do business, I'll be sure to avoid you.

 

First off. Let's cool it on the personal stuff shall we? We all want the CPL to succeed, we just happen to have a different opinion about current circumstances.

While the league says there are other groups interested in Ottawa, they've also said this league would start in 2018, they said at one point the player budget would be 1.5 and they said this league would start with 8 teams. I used to believe most of what they said, but I think it's fair to be a little skeptical of what they say at this point. Is this an about face statement or the truth? I'm not willing to accept it at face given the other things they've said in the past that turned out to be untrue.

46 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CPL ownership aren't the CSA. If the league was owned and operated by the CSA, I would have conceded that you might have a point but CPL ownership are made of successful and rich business people who made their fortune by not putting up with shit like this and crushing their competitors. You screw with their money and investment, they crush you, that's business. 

The CPL ownership is made up of a lot of successful and rich business people who can spot a shaky investment...like putting a team in direct competition with a CFL ownership group who has a soccer team with primary tenant status at the only suitable facility in the city. I think both sides will eventually want this to work out. Bob Young isn't George Soros. 

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Are you telling me that the other major leagues would have put up with this farce? No and I was glad to see some"Bettman" in Clanachan message after this, purposely bot leaving a door open to OSEG, crushing their take of the event and openly talking other groups interested in the Ottawa market.

I'm telling you the CPL isn't a major league right now. The golden knights put up half a billion to join the NHL. a few teams in this league can't even get 500 people to commit to seasons tickets yet.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Why are you expecting these guys to put up with it and kneel before the mighty "Fury" who can't even make the playoff in USL when 2008 USL impact not only made CCL but went far with a CANADIAN HEAVY ROSTER? Wake up. CPL is not the CSA and the FURY are being made into something mystical and overrated for some crazy reason that I simply don't get.

Not expecting them to kneel by any stretch. Don't think they're mystical or overrated either. I just think the negotiating table isn't as skewed to the CPL having all the power as you believe, hence my original question. I think both sides have work to do and have chips of their own. It's not black or white. 

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Lastly, outside of Ottawa and this forum, who gives a F***about USL in Canada???? 99% don't give a crap and I could safely say that the majority doesn't even know what it is. CPL can opt to move on with another group and start a team as the league was clear that Ottawa matters to the league. 

This might be the root of our disagreement. The USL is a stable league and the Ottawa Fury have a reasonable local following. The CPL is an unknown without any tv or media deal as of this moment. your point about the "who gives a f***?" could extent to the CPL. As of right now most minor league hockey teams are going to outsell even the best CPL markets at this point.

If they want to get into the 5th biggest metropolitan area in Canada they either have to compete with a known commodity in this market with fans already aware of the team or start all over from scratch pushing a league noone has heard of. And if you think simply saying "but we're the CPL!" has any clout in that market and will suddenly become a huge success when there's already an existing team, well  I have a bridge to sell you in London.

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

While the league says there are other groups interested in Ottawa, they've also said this league would start in 2018, they said at one point the player budget would be 1.5 and they said this league would start with 8 teams. I used to believe most of what they said, but I think it's fair to be a little skeptical of what they say at this point. Is this an about face statement or the truth? I'm not willing to accept it at face given the other things they've said in the past that turned out to be untrue.

The league never said $1.5M. People claiming inside source did.

The CPL thought they had a deal with the Fury until they went public without giving notice to the league or Association. You minimize the way they poorly handled this. This was utterly unacceptable and unnecessary. You don't blindside potential future business partners, you let them know in advance that you need an extra year. That was unprofessional, no if or but about it.

31 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

The CPL ownership is made up of a lot of successful and rich business people who can spot a shaky investment...like putting a team in direct competition with a CFL ownership group who has a soccer team with primary tenant status at the only suitable facility in the city. I think both sides will eventually want this to work out. Bob Young isn't George Soros. 

Ok, let me put it in other words. OSEG said that the door was open to join CPL and they would be watching the league closely. That's a "maybe". You really expect the league to take their "maybe" and stay out of the Ottawa market "hoping" that the Fury will change their mind, thus giving them more time to solidify their hold on the market? 

That's just not how business works. Clearly, CPL thinks the same as they didn't return the courtesy of the "open door". They flat out said that other groups were interested in starting a CPL team in the city and criticized OSEG siding with a US league. 

To your point, those successful and rich business people can spot a shaky and unreliable potential partner. Not unsalvageable but they were far from pleased on how OSEG handled this publicly unilaterally. They didnt become rich by partnering with people behaving that way and they didn't become rich by avoiding competition. There's no going around it, CPL needs the National Capital Region and a "maybe"/"we'll see" from the Fury isn't good enough. They need Ottawa to success but not necessarily OSEG.

Harder? Yes but necessary. Ball's in OSEG camp.

41 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Not expecting them to kneel by any stretch. Don't think they're mystical or overrated either. I just think the negotiating table isn't as skewed to the CPL having all the power as you believe, hence my original question. I think both sides have work to do and have chips of their own. It's not black or white. 

I think CPL did what it could to convince the Fury while arguably, set aside Ottawa for them the entire time where they could have advance talks with other groups. They were willing to accommodate them for the following season. Rightfully so, the league is frustrated and I don't see what's to negotiate here, not after how this was handled publicly.

This is NY Cosmos all over again who ended up overplaying their hand and MLS simply moved on to NYCFC when the Cosmos were asking for the moon.

47 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

This might be the root of our disagreement. The USL is a stable league and the Ottawa Fury have a reasonable local following. The CPL is an unknown without any tv or media deal as of this moment. your point about the "who gives a f***?" could extent to the CPL. As of right now most minor league hockey teams are going to outsell even the best CPL markets at this point.

If they want to get into the 5th biggest metropolitan area in Canada they either have to compete with a known commodity in this market with fans already aware of the team or start all over from scratch pushing a league noone has heard of. And if you think simply saying "but we're the CPL!" has any clout in that market and will suddenly become a huge success when there's already an existing team, well  I have a bridge to sell you in London.

Declining following really...

USL is a stable league as a whole in the US but utterly irrelevant in Canada. Whatever media deal CPL will have will most likely be better than what USL offers in Canada, hence the potential for more fans following the league.

Putting this aside, you are ignoring my main point. No one can for the Fury to decide how they do business, but the way they went at it publicly without informing the CSA and CPL is unprofessional and was unnecessary. It's weird because there was a sense of certainty over Ottawa until they flipped at the last minute. You simply don't go public without noticing the other parties. Would they have done so, I'm sure that most of us, including me would have understood the reasoning even if we didnt like it. How they did it was was bad for the league...yet you expect the league to turn the other cheek, let them mull over it for years while being shut out of the market they need. Business doesn't work that way.

I'd say if they don't announce within the 2019 season that they intend to join in 2020 or 2021 (a firm date), the league will simply move on from OSEG. Not many like their chances at being sanctioned past 2019....curiously enough, the CSA has yet to confirm 2019

 

[lazlo_80]

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The league never said $1.5M. People claiming inside source did.

The CPL thought they had a deal with the Fury until they went public without giving notice to the league or Association. You minimize the way they poorly handled this. This was utterly unacceptable and unnecessary. You don't blindside potential future business partners, you let them know in advance that you need an extra year. That was unprofessional, no if or but about it.

Ok, let me put it in other words. OSEG said that the door was open to join CPL and they would be watching the league closely. That's a "maybe". You really expect the league to take their "maybe" and stay out of the Ottawa market "hoping" that the Fury will change their mind, thus giving them more time to solidify their hold on the market? 

That's just not how business works. Clearly, CPL thinks the same as they didn't return the courtesy of the "open door". They flat out said that other groups were interested in starting a CPL team in the city and criticized OSEG siding with a US league. 

To your point, those successful and rich business people can spot a shaky and unreliable potential partner. Not unsalvageable but they were far from pleased on how OSEG handled this publicly unilaterally. They didnt become rich by partnering with people behaving that way and they didn't become rich by avoiding competition. There's no going around it, CPL needs the National Capital Region and a "maybe"/"we'll see" from the Fury isn't good enough. They need Ottawa to success but not necessarily OSEG.

Harder? Yes but necessary. Ball's in OSEG camp.

I think CPL did what it could to convince the Fury while arguably, set aside Ottawa for them the entire time where they could have advance talks with other groups. They were willing to accommodate them for the following season. Rightfully so, the league is frustrated and I don't see what's to negotiate here, not after how this was handled publicly.

This is NY Cosmos all over again who ended up overplaying their hand and MLS simply moved on to NYCFC when the Cosmos were asking for the moon.

Declining following really...

USL is a stable league as a whole in the US but utterly irrelevant in Canada. Whatever media deal CPL will have will most likely be better than what USL offers in Canada, hence the potential for more fans following the league.

Putting this aside, you are ignoring my main point. No one can for the Fury to decide how they do business, but the way they went at it publicly without informing the CSA and CPL is unprofessional and was unnecessary. It's weird because there was a sense of certainty over Ottawa until they flipped at the last minute. You simply don't go public without noticing the other parties. Would they have done so, I'm sure that most of us, including me would have understood the reasoning even if we didnt like it. How they did it was was bad for the league...yet you expect the league to turn the other cheek, let them mull over it for years while being shut out of the market they need. Business doesn't work that way.

I'd say if they don't announce within the 2019 season that they intend to join in 2020 or 2021 (a firm date), the league will simply move on from OSEG. Not many like their chances at being sanctioned past 2019....curiously enough, the CSA has yet to confirm 2019

 

Feels more Montreal Impact than Cosmos to me. Saputo was supposed to join when the Caps did but got into a pissing contest with Garber about expansion fees and it all went to shit temporarily before everyone coming to an agreement. Neither side groveled to the other. 

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, lazlo_80 said:

Feels more Montreal Impact than Cosmos to me. Saputo was supposed to join when the Caps did but got into a pissing contest with Garber about expansion fees and it all went to shit temporarily before everyone coming to an agreement. Neither side groveled to the other. 

Saputo had the courtesy to tell Garber and MLS that he refused to pay $40M in advance before going public.

OSEG didn't give CPL the same courtesy 

[Kent]

Why do things only have to end by someone kneeling? I think you are being a bit melodramatic Ansem. As for reserving Ottawa for the Fury, it's not just that. It's not like they are reserving Montreal for the Impact, or Vancouver for the Whitecaps. It's just not all that smart to go into places where they will have a fractured portion of the soccer market. The Fury right now has a monopoly on pro soccer in Ottawa and are only drawing around 5k per game.

I think the real solution to this whole thing is just to put John Herdman on the charm offensive to get Ottawa Fury to commit to CPL.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

...OSEG didn't give CPL the same courtesy 

Not sure where you are getting that from? If they had stopped attending the meetings, I doubt it came completely out of the blue for Clanachan and co.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not sure where you are getting that from? If they had stopped attending the meetings, I doubt it came completely out of the blue for Clanachan and co.

Not sure where you are getting yours from?

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ansem

[CDNFootballer]

Ottawa identified by CPL Commissioner as one of 4 markets most likely to join the Canadian Premier League as expansion entries for the 2020 season :

'As for 2020, and the league’s possible expansion, Clanachan identified four locations where teams are furthest along in the process and most likely to join the league. The first of these is the aforementioned Ottawa. “Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge, we think there’s a path to 2020 there. I hope there’s a path for 2020 in Saskatchewan, and also in (the province of) Quebec”, stated Clanachan."

https://the11.ca/clanachan-canpl-is-zeroed-in-on-seven-teams-for-2019/

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Presumably that hinges on the Fury changing their mind as they clearly anticipated they would be the eighth team for the launch, so are unlikely to have pushed the process a long way with anyone else. The use of "hope" sounds a bit ominous and probably pop-up stadium approval related where Saskatchewan and Quebec are concerned. I suspect K/W gets upgraded to "think" because the stadium is already there in which case it probably hinges around a better playing surface and possibly numbered seats (rather than benches) being installed at Wilfred Laurier. Time will tell.

Edited October 17, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Kent]

What is the white circle for just inside the 18 yard box in that pic? Is that some sort of new football thing? Maybe where PAT's are taken from?

[deschamp86]

5 minutes ago, Kent said:

What is the white circle for just inside the 18 yard box in that pic? Is that some sort of new football thing? Maybe where PAT's are taken from?

Lacrosse?

[Kent]

2 minutes ago, deschamp86 said:

Lacrosse?

I had to look up lacrosse field info. Looks like you are probably right.

[rob.notenboom]

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Presumably that hinges on the Fury changing their mind as they clearly anticipated they would be the eighth team for the launch, so are unlikely to have pushed the process a long way with anyone else. The use of "hope" sounds a bit ominous and probably pop-up stadium approval related where Saskatchewan and Quebec are concerned. I suspect K/W gets upgraded to "think" because the stadium is already there in which case it probably hinges around a better playing surface and possibly numbered seats (rather than benches) being installed at Wilfred Laurier. Time will tell.

‘Hope’ is not related to stadium approval in Sask at all. Stadium solution is sorted. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by rob.notenboom

[Aird25]

7 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

‘Hope’ is not related to stadium approval in Sask at all. Stadium solution is sorted. 

Would you care to elaborate?