Jonathan Osorio

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Smaller how? 

Better level of play?

At the risk of opening the "how good is MLS debate", I would say that Colombia would have some teams at a similar level and some teams at a weaker level. 

In Libertadores, some teams would be better, but a few may be worse. Such as if they played "The Strongest" from Bolivia. I don't know if they qualified, but that's an example of a team weaker than your typical MLS side.

Plus the name always cracks me up. The Strongest.

[Ansem]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

At the risk of opening the "how good is MLS debate", I would say that Colombia would have some teams at a similar level and some teams at a weaker level. 

In Libertadores, some teams would be better, but a few may be worse. Such as if they played "The Strongest" from Bolivia. I don't know if they qualified, but that's an example of a team weaker than your typical MLS side.

Plus the name always cracks me up. The Strongest.

I strongly disagree with your premise that MLS is at level or better... strongly.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ansem

[BrennanFan]

This is exactly the kind of move we want our players to be making so we can get used to Concacaf like conditions and competition. As stated above, Osorio has to want to go for this to even get considered, and then the money has to be right from TFCs perspective. No guarantees on either of those, but let's hope the stars align.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

This is exactly the kind of move we want our players to be making so we can get used to Concacaf like conditions and competition. As stated above, Osorio has to want to go for this to even get considered, and then the money has to be right from TFCs perspective. No guarantees on either of those, but let's hope the stars align.

Right move, wrong time I would suggest.

[jordan]

27 minutes ago, devioustrevor said:

What is the recovery time from his surgery?

Not sure how long sports hernia is, 4-6 weeks based on what I saw online.

[Gian-Luca]

15 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

This is exactly the kind of move we want our players to be making so we can get used to Concacaf like conditions and competition. As stated above, Osorio has to want to go for this to even get considered, and then the money has to be right from TFCs perspective. No guarantees on either of those, but let's hope the stars align.

In terms of preparing our players for getting used to Concacaf-like conditions and competition, wouldn't it be better for him to stay with TFC and play more games in the actual Concacaf Champions League matches?

I agree in principle with what you are suggesting, but not for this player. This would be a good move for one of the Choiniere brothers in Montreal or AJH or Petrasso (the latter two also were liked by Zambrano more than they have been by Herdman thus far. Maybe add Sam Adekugbe to that list as well). The timing is off for Osorio given that he just re-signed with TFC for a high contract and they are going right back into Champions League play in February.

In any event, I look forward to seeing people still denying that there is or ever was any interest for Osorio from other clubs.

[RS]

48 minutes ago, devioustrevor said:

What is the recovery time from his surgery?

 

19 minutes ago, jordan said:

Not sure how long sports hernia is, 4-6 weeks based on what I saw online.

 

From the link provided by @devioustrevor: "Osorio underwent sports hernia surgery earlier this month, but he is expected to be ready for pre-season training with TFC in January."

[Keegan]

43 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Smaller how? 

Better level of play?

Generally, players move from Colombia to MLS when they are looking to make a move up and not the other way around.  It would be a good experience but the Colombian league is a lateral move at best and a step down at worst.  All you have to do is compare the rosters and budgets to see Toronto is a relatively big club.  Any player on that Medellín team would jump at the chance to go the other way in a second (maybe that’s something they do if this does happen).

Obviously he would be going for the Libertadores, which of course is a step up from MLS play but at the expense of CCL play I don’t see the point if it’s anything like last year.  Osorio had the experience of his career last winter, not sure I’d risk missing out on a second chance.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Keegan

[mluciani]

If he does go out on loan does his salary go against the TFC's Salary Cap? If it doesn't then I think we can sign a better player while he is out on loan.

 

[BrennanFan]

9 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

In terms of preparing our players for getting used to Concacaf-like conditions and competition, wouldn't it be better for him to stay with TFC and play more games in the actual Concacaf Champions League matches?

I agree in principle with what you are suggesting, but not for this player. This would be a good move for one of the Choiniere brothers in Montreal or AJH or Petrasso (the latter two also were liked by Zambrano more than they have been by Herdman thus far. Maybe add Sam Adekugbe to that list as well). The timing is off for Osorio given that he just re-signed with TFC for a high contract and they are going right back into Champions League play in February.

In any event, I look forward to seeing people still denying that there is or ever was any interest for Osorio from other clubs.

No. The level of play in Concacaf WCQ is higher than the level of Concacaf Champions league and is closer to the level of Libertadores. The hostile conditions in WCQ are also closer to South American club football, aside from big games in Mex.

The players you named are nowhere close to the level required on top Colombian teams or in the Libertadores, in fact there are only a handful of our players who could handle and benefit from that level, Jono included.

You can file the following as speculation, but I've also heard that Oso signed his extension not because he for sure has decided to stay in Toronto for the next few years, but because the right deal didn't appear this past year, and there is an understanding with tfc that he will still be moved once the right deal presents itself.  

[BrennanFan]

12 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Generally, players move from Colombia to MLS when they are looking to make a move up and not the other way around.  It would be a good experience but the Colombian league is a lateral move at best and a step down at worst.  All you have to do is compare the rosters and budgets to see Toronto is a relatively big club.  Any player on that Medellín team would jump at the chance to go the other way in a second (maybe that’s something they do if this does happen).

They go to MLS for the money, not the playing level.

[Keegan]

15 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

They go to MLS for the money, not the playing level.

The money in MLS is what brings the higher level talents that don’t feature in Colombia = an equal or higher level.  This is quite recent though, within the last 10 years. There’s no doubt that the domestic player in Colombia is stronger.

You’re right though.  That may be one of the reasons in conjunction with lifestyle for sure though in some instances.  The fact that it’s an equal level and you can live a better lifestyle makes it a no brainer for players down there.

Its not like someone moves to MLS thinking it’s the highest level but you can definitely get exposure and move on, see Fredy Montero and Fabian Castillo.  My point is you would rarely, if ever, see a non Colombian move from MLS to Colombia in a bid to move up the ladder - not to say you couldn’t but it’s just not efficient.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Keegan

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Generally, players move from Colombia to MLS when they are looking to make a move up and not the other way around.  It would be a good experience but the Colombian league is a lateral move at best and a step down at worst.  All you have to do is compare the rosters and budgets to see Toronto is a relatively big club.  Any player on that Medellín team would jump at the chance to go the other way in a second (maybe that’s something they do if this does happen).

Obviously he would be going for the Libertadores, which of course is a step up from MLS play but at the expense of CCL play I don’t see the point if it’s anything like last year.  Osorio had the experience of his career last winter, not sure I’d risk missing out on a second chance.

You're mixing economics with level of play. Players will favor more pay and better living conditions for themselves and family most of the time. MLS, Canada and US offers that but that doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between economics and level of play.

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Keegan said:

The money in MLS is what brings the higher level talents that don’t feature in Colombia = an equal or higher level.  This is quite recent though, within the last 10 years. 

That may be one of the reasons in conjunction with lifestyle for sure though in some instances.  The fact that it’s an equal level and you can live a better lifestyle makes it a no brainer for players down there.

I'm sorry but it's NOT equal level of play. Not even close

[RS]

Just now, Ansem said:

I'm sorry but it's NOT equal level of play. Not even close

Are you an expert on the Colombian league, or are you just spitballing here based on the fact that it's in South America?

[Keegan]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm sorry but it's NOT equal level of play. Not even close

Okay, well I guess since you said so... 

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're mixing economics with level of play. Players will favor more pay and better living conditions for themselves and family most of the time. MLS, Canada and US offers that but that doesn't mean there's a direct correlation between economics and level of play.

No, like it literally does.  Colombia has better domestic players but MLS brings in better internationals.  You yourself just said players will favour that... it’s the same reason the EPL is better than the Belgian league. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Keegan

[RS]

Just now, Keegan said:

No, like it literally does.  

It's a silly argument, isn't it? Players will gravitate to higher pay and better living conditions.

If you get enough players coming "for the money" then the level of play within the league will rise accordingly.

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, RS said:

Are you an expert on the Colombian league, or are you just spitballing here based on the fact that it's in South America?

I enjoy watching Copa Libertadores over the years, some games when I dated a Columbian... yeah, if you give it a try, won't take long to see the difference in style and the gap in play.

[Obinna]

39 minutes ago, mluciani said:

If he does go out on loan does his salary go against the TFC's Salary Cap? If it doesn't then I think we can sign a better player while he is out on loan.

 

That's what I thought, but wouldnt they be up against it once the loan expires?

[Keegan]

8 minutes ago, RS said:

It's a silly argument, isn't it? Players will gravitate to higher pay and better living conditions.

If you get enough players coming "for the money" then the level of play within the league will rise accordingly.

It’s not a perfect argument, for instance if you’re giving DP money to a Belgian 2nd division striker *cough* Vancouver *cough*.  But over time and in Canada/USA it’s just inevitable .. it’s not like this is China or India where you develop little to no domestic talent and players don’t really want to live there.  But even then those leagues have taken significant strides as well.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Keegan

[BrennanFan]

We can argue about level of play, but what we know for sure is that the style of play in Colombia is much more akin to what we will face against Honduras, Costa Rica etc. And this is the bottom line for me. It's more valuable for the CMNT to have Osorio playing against the competition in Colombia than in MLS or the 2nd Bundesliga or the English Championship.  

 

[Keegan]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

I enjoy watching Copa Libertadores over the years, some games when I dated a Columbian... yeah, if you give it a try, won't take long to see the difference in style and the gap in play.

So now we are supposed to trust a girl from Columbus? 

[RS]

Just now, Keegan said:

It’s not a perfect argument, for instance if you’re giving DP money to a Belgian 2nd division striker *cough* Vancouver *cough*.  But over time and in Canada/USA it’s just inevitable .. it’s not like this is China or India where you develop little to no domestic talent and players don’t really want to live there.

Right, it's not a perfect argument because there will be Jarju-sized busts from time to time. Which is why I said "if you get enough players coming," because the wider net helps weed out the crap outliers.

I know we're agreeing on this, I just wanted to further expand on my point.

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, RS said:

It's a silly argument, isn't it? Players will gravitate to higher pay and better living conditions.

If you get enough players coming "for the money" then the level of play within the league will rise accordingly.

Like the Chinese Super League!

[Ansem]

13 minutes ago, Keegan said:

Okay, well I guess since you said so... 

No, like it literally does.  Colombia has better domestic players but MLS brings in better internationals.  You yourself just said players will favour that... it’s the same reason the EPL is better than the Belgian league. 

Having "better internationals" doesn't mean you have the "better team". 

Many of those "Columbians domestics" would be worth "DP & Internationals" on an MLS squad. Might be a reason why Euro leagues scout heavily there.... no?