Canadian Nationalization Countdown

[jonovision]

Also, and without picking out raw teenagers.. what players on MLS rosters aren't good enough for League Two?

Ryan Richter?

[Keegan]

Ryan Richter?

But remember, TFC is getting relegated as I said and the league is on par with the Championship

I agree with that though, he probably couldn't cut it at League Two. Try to find me a few guys like that on each roster (of actual teams not circuses) though who actually play, it's not happening.

[DigzTFC]

But remember, TFC is getting relegated as I said and the league is on par with the Championship

I agree with that though, he probably couldn't cut it at League Two. Try to find me a few guys like that on each roster (of actual teams not circuses) though who actually play, it's not happening.

Jeb Brovsky

[ag futbol]

Maybe you could argue MLS is equal to the lower half of the championship / upper half of league one, but in general? I have a hard time believing they approximate the CCC in england.

Average salary of a CCC Player: £211,068 (2011) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2055140/Premier-League-wages-FIVE-times-Championship.html

Average salary of a MLS player: $160,000 (2013) http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/m-l-s-salary-figures-are-out-and-one-star-shares-some-of-his/

And remember MLS teams don't spend as heavily on transfers and there's more money tied up in a few designed players. Add it all up and I have a hard time believing MLS teams are going to compete with any of the better sides. Even the mid table teams could be challenging.

[Ivanovski94]

What about when Torsten Frings said the MLS was like Bundesliga 2. I think he was being genuine with that remark.

[Keegan]

Maybe you could argue MLS is equal to the lower half of the championship / upper half of league one, but in general? I have a hard time believing they approximate the CCC in england.

Average salary of a CCC Player: £211,068 (2011) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2055140/Premier-League-wages-FIVE-times-Championship.html

Average salary of a MLS player: $160,000 (2013) http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/07/m-l-s-salary-figures-are-out-and-one-star-shares-some-of-his/

And remember MLS teams don't spend as heavily on transfers and there's more money tied up in a few designed players. Add it all up and I have a hard time believing MLS teams are going to compete with any of the better sides. Even the mid table teams could be challenging.

I could be wrong but isn't the price of living much higher in England? Also many players take discounts to play in North America, generally to move their family here.

[Keano]

Howsoon Camara

[ag futbol]

I could be wrong but isn't the price of living much higher in England? Also many players take discounts to play in North America, generally to move their family here.

You are right, but the cost of living only explains part of the difference. These comparisons could be made worse by digging deeper than the average and looking at specific players, positions, etc... With MLS tying up more money in fewer players the pay gap is actually even wider than what's suggested by the previously quoted stat.

I understand that some players bring their families over, but overall I wouldn't necessarily consider that a relevant data point. We don't have any means of comparison or solid statistics to see how much of a draw that is or if MLS players are more likely to bring their families than player moving to other places. It could simply be a function of them being older on average and having more established lifestyles. We have improved mightily, but we're still small potatoes in world terms. CCC is very close to the big dance and despite the English lower leagues at times being vilified for not developing enough players, they still send more guys on to the top leagues than MLS does. That's important for players trying to advance their careers.

[TheKottonmouthed1555362307]

pardon my ignorance, but who is that?

Joke or no?

If not it is Gershon Koffie

[Obinna]

It is hard for sure to compare MLS with other leagues due to the parity within the league and the unevenness of talent within each roster. I think if you remove the Donovan's and Henry's from the league, it would be comparable to Norway or Sweden top flight, maybe Denmark too (although you would definitely have to exclude Copenhagen and maybe FCN).

One reason I make this comparison with these Scandinavian leagues because there is player movement both ways and players seem to preform comparably on either side. Seattle and NYRB acquire norwegian and swedish internationals from these leagues who do well here, and galaxy have sent a struggling chad Barrett over there, where his woes continued. Additionally, I make indirect comparisons, particularly ones that involve the Jamaican national team. As of late, quite a few members of their squad plays in Norway and a couple in Sweden, and as we know they have a bunch of internationals in MLS. In both leagues it seems like those Jamaicans are middle of the road players.... Ryan Johnson, Jermaine Taylor (MLS) Demar Phillips and Jason Morrison (NOR). Of course this is all subjective evidence but it is what I use to compare leagues (aside from actually watching them).

I find a championship comparison a lot tougher though. Cadwell has done fantastic over here and put himself into "must keep" category. Yet Birmingham city had no problem letting him go. Ernshaw is arguably in this category as well. You can say okay fine you are comparing a solid CCC team with a weak MLS squad, but consider Dane Richards. He was effective on numerous MLS teams but seems lost at Burnley. Ryan Finlay has had a revival with RSL but couldn't make an impact with Nottingham Forest. Maybe it is just me, but it seems that player performances are less comparable across the CCC and MLS.

So for my two cents: MLS = Norway/Sweden .... Jury is still out on the CCC.

[El Hombre]

MLS is on par with B3 and League One and you could argue a couple of the poorest B2/Championship teams, but NASL on par with B3? nope.

Hmm...I was told on this very board that the only MNT player that could crack the VWFC starting eleven was Hutchinson. That doesn't seem to compute with your assertion above.

[rob.notenboom]

Howsoon Camara

Awesome.

[VWFC]

No, the Liga MX isn't on par with the Premier League but it is certainly better than the Championship, it can exist somewhere in the middle you know.. same goes for the Brazilian and Argentinian Premier Leagues.

The second part of what you say is right and completely true though about the uniqueness of talent on rosters. However, if a MLS team were hypothetically in the Championship they wouldn't have restrictions on their roster size so that argument doesn't really fly and they most definitely survive, hell even with current roster restrictions I'd bet that all but a few MLS teams (Toronto and Chivas, maybe a few others but from matches I've watched they stick out) would survive the Championship. Those same roster restrictions are the reason a MLS team hasn't won the CCL... so it's not really a fair argument to talk about continental competition but I'll tell you what RSL came DAMN close and should have beat Monterrey with those same roster restrictions.

It's insulting because I don't even think that a team at the top of League One could make the MLS playoffs and you're saying its on par with it. When I look at an MLS starting XI I definitely don't think "3rd division England"...

Also, and without picking out raw teenagers.. what players on MLS rosters aren't good enough for League Two?

La Liga better than the Championship, Wow? Sorry, I dont mean to sound harsh, but I have to question your loyalties to MLS or if you have ever watched a League One game or just your overall soccer knowledge?

There are roster restrictions in England and even if there aren't its irrelevant, because we are comparing MLS to Champioship, not hypothetical MLS to Champioship.

Scotland (excluding Celtic), League One, B3, MLS are all basically on par, with a few of the lowest B2 & Championship teams coming into play. There's always exceptions, but generally speaking its true. Compare player salaries and keep in mind in Europe they have other bonuses and transfer fees. Look at the players who move from England just from the Caps:

Dane Richards - Played 160 times in MLS, scored 24 goals. Went to Burnley got 7 minutes in one game and within 2 months was gone.

Barry Robson - although he didnt fit in, had more skill than almost anyone on the Caps. Went to Sheffield in League One

Miller - Not wanted in the Championship, now an above average MLS player

OB - Same as Miller

Players just on the Caps who aren't good enough for League Two: Klazura, Thomas, & Clarke. Players on the Caps who are League Two quality: JMD, Harvey, Hertado, Knighton, Watson, Mitchell.

I dont know why its a big deal for the MLS to be on par with those levels. I would still have my seasons tickets if they were on par with the National Conference. The league is growing and getting better and its helping develop good Canadian kids, but its a process and we are not there yet. You can be sure a **** that we will be, though.

[VWFC]

Hmm...I was told on this very board that the only MNT player that could crack the VWFC starting eleven was Hutchinson. That doesn't seem to compute with your assertion above.

Haha, that's great. Who said that?

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

La Liga better than the Championship, Wow? Sorry, I dont mean to sound harsh, but I have to question your loyalties to MLS or if you have ever watched a League One game or just your overall soccer knowledge?

Maybe I misread this, but you think the English Championship is better than La Liga?

[Obinna]

La Liga better than the Championship, Wow? Sorry, I dont mean to sound harsh, but I have to question your loyalties to MLS or if you have ever watched a League One game or just your overall soccer knowledge?

There are roster restrictions in England and even if there aren't its irrelevant, because we are comparing MLS to Champioship, not hypothetical MLS to Champioship.

Scotland (excluding Celtic), League One, B3, MLS are all basically on par, with a few of the lowest B2 & Championship teams coming into play. There's always exceptions, but generally speaking its true. Compare player salaries and keep in mind in Europe they have other bonuses and transfer fees. Look at the players who move from England just from the Caps:

Dane Richards - Played 160 times in MLS, scored 24 goals. Went to Burnley got 7 minutes in one game and within 2 months was gone.

Barry Robson - although he didnt fit in, had more skill than almost anyone on the Caps. Went to Sheffield in League One

Miller - Not wanted in the Championship, now an above average MLS player

OB - Same as Miller

Players just on the Caps who aren't good enough for League Two: Klazura, Thomas, & Clarke. Players on the Caps who are League Two quality: JMD, Harvey, Hertado, Knighton, Watson, Mitchell.

I dont know why its a big deal for the MLS to be on par with those levels. I would still have my seasons tickets if they were on par with the National Conference. The league is growing and getting better and its helping develop good Canadian kids, but its a process and we are not there yet. You can be sure a **** that we will be, though.

I think there are a lot of good points in this post and some solid examples. There isn't much evidence to suggest that MLS is at the same level as the championship. As far as liga MX versus championship though, I would say that the mid table championhip teams are at the same level (style of league different of course). The promotion candidates are probably a small step above and the relegation battlers a small step below. I think that is a fair evaluation no? MLS is still not as good as liga MX so......

[madmonte]

Maybe I misread this, but you think the English Championship is better than La Liga?

He means Liga MX. And for the record, I watch Mexican football, and English Championship, and for two different games completely, I enjoy watching Liga MX more. And I DO feel it's high level football. I agree with Keegan, it's higher than the Championship by a little bit, probably on par with, say, Eredivisie, but it's hard to compare, it's almost apples and oranges. Almost wish they could enter Europa and the Champions League just to prove you wrong on this, VWFC, they play pretty damn fine down there in Mexico.

And MLS about on par with B3 Germany? I think Frings had it about right. Best teams are similar to low level Bundesliga 1 teams. (ie Augsburg, etc). Worst teams are like bottom of the B2 teams.

If the Montreal Impact played a B3 team direct one on one, I think if the Impact lost it would be a pretty huge upset.

And for all the solid examples posted, I can find examples like Mista who played well on a supposedly higher level and came here and got crushed.

Edited July 4, 2013 by madmonte

[Kurt-MTL]

Back on topic, I'd take guys like Camillo, Felipe, and Koffie in a heartbeat. If they've lived here the required amount of time, gained their citizenship, and are still of capable ability then why not? This country was built on the backs of immigrants, why not the MNT too?

[lazlo_80]

Back on topic, I'd take guys like Camillo, Felipe, and Koffie in a heartbeat. If they've lived here the required amount of time, gained their citizenship, and are still of capable ability then why not? This country was built on the backs of immigrants, why not the MNT too?

Especially Camillo. That guy is having a ridiculous season and already has great chemistry with Teibert.

[VWFC]

Maybe I misread this, but you think the English Championship is better than La Liga?

Mexican La Liga. Slightly, yes.

Edited July 4, 2013 by VWFC

[jpg75]

Did some English blowhard really say the English 2nd Division is better than the Mexican Primera!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Keegan]

La Liga better than the Championship, Wow? Sorry, I dont mean to sound harsh, but I have to question your loyalties to MLS or if you have ever watched a League One game or just your overall soccer knowledge?

There are roster restrictions in England and even if there aren't its irrelevant, because we are comparing MLS to Champioship, not hypothetical MLS to Champioship.

Scotland (excluding Celtic), League One, B3, MLS are all basically on par, with a few of the lowest B2 & Championship teams coming into play. There's always exceptions, but generally speaking its true. Compare player salaries and keep in mind in Europe they have other bonuses and transfer fees. Look at the players who move from England just from the Caps:

Dane Richards - Played 160 times in MLS, scored 24 goals. Went to Burnley got 7 minutes in one game and within 2 months was gone.

Barry Robson - although he didnt fit in, had more skill than almost anyone on the Caps. Went to Sheffield in League One

Miller - Not wanted in the Championship, now an above average MLS player

OB - Same as Miller

Players just on the Caps who aren't good enough for League Two: Klazura, Thomas, & Clarke. Players on the Caps who are League Two quality: JMD, Harvey, Hertado, Knighton, Watson, Mitchell.

I dont know why its a big deal for the MLS to be on par with those levels. I would still have my seasons tickets if they were on par with the National Conference. The league is growing and getting better and its helping develop good Canadian kids, but its a process and we are not there yet. You can be sure a **** that we will be, though.

Yes, you can offer those examples but then you can also look at guys who have come from the Championship and flopped here? I've watched all the leagues being discussed and I spend some time in Mexico each winter where I watch probably around 20 odd FMF matches a season (not live of course).

I can offer up the example of Kei Kamara going to Norwich and stepping into their XI... does that mean that MLS is on par with the EPL? And Robson was a Championship player before coming to MLS himself and flopping so it can go both ways. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked any football expert they would put MLS ahead of League One and the most comparable league after that is of course the Championship so...

Just because your DEPTH players are League Two level it doesn't make the whole league drop down. If you watch the matches those guys mentioned aren't the ones playing it's the guys like Reo-Coker, Teibert, Camilo, Miller, YP Lee etc. that you watch week in and week out.. so tell me would they be playing League One Football? Highly doubt it.

Go to a Premier League roster and you'll find players that are League One and League Two level it means &@$ all.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Keegan

[Addona]

Yes, you can offer those examples but then you can also look at guys who have come from the Championship and flopped here? I've watched all the leagues being discussed and I spend some time in Mexico each winter where I watch probably around 20 odd FMF matches a season (not live of course).

I can offer up the example of Kei Kamara going to Norwich and stepping into their XI... does that mean that MLS is on par with the EPL? And Robson was a Championship player before coming to MLS himself and flopping so it can go both ways. I'd be willing to bet that if you asked any football expert they would put MLS ahead of League One and the most comparable league after that is of course the Championship so...

Just because your DEPTH players are League Two level it doesn't make the whole league drop down. If you watch the matches those guys mentioned aren't the ones playing it's the guys like Reo-Coker, Teibert, Camilo, Miller, YP Lee etc. that you watch week in and week out.. so tell me would they be playing League One Football? Highly doubt it.

Go to a Premier League roster and you'll find players that are League One and League Two level it means &@$ all.

I'm not disagreeing with your arguments, but I don't like the Kamara example ... he had 1 goal in 650 minutes with Norwich. For comparison, he has 4 goals this year with SKC in 480 or so minutes. It's hardly the same. The examples that I find alarming for MLS are guys like Eddie Johnson who pretty much flopped in England, came back to MLS and scored 15 goals, or Charlie Davies who, after his accident, scored 11 goals for DCU, went back back EU and can't do much of anything. Robbie Findley, Robbie Rogers, etc. I realize that there are examples that go both ways, and maybe there are extenuating circumstances for some of these players. All in all, my best guess would be that MLS is somewhere close to the Championship level, but not quite there yet.

[Fussball_eh]

I thought this article we just published on the website would fit pretty well into this article

http://www.fussballeh.com/canadian-soccer/item/46-young-canadian-talents-we-can-all-look-forward-to

[Keegan]

I'm not disagreeing with your arguments, but I don't like the Kamara example ... he had 1 goal in 650 minutes with Norwich. For comparison, he has 4 goals this year with SKC in 480 or so minutes. It's hardly the same. The examples that I find alarming for MLS are guys like Eddie Johnson who pretty much flopped in England, came back to MLS and scored 15 goals, or Charlie Davies who, after his accident, scored 11 goals for DCU, went back back EU and can't do much of anything. Robbie Findley, Robbie Rogers, etc. I realize that there are examples that go both ways, and maybe there are extenuating circumstances for some of these players. All in all, my best guess would be that MLS is somewhere close to the Championship level, but not quite there yet.

You're right there are certain guys who just can't cut it in Europe but there are so many variables in switching leagues and continents in particular. It's very tough to judge on small sample sizes. The Kei Kamara example was just one that popped in my head. There are countless SPL/Championship players that come here and flop, hell from TFC alone we could make a large list.

I think the players know best though... if someone like Torsten Frings is comparing it to the B2 I'm going to listen. I actually rate the B2 ahead of the Championship so in my mind at least he's giving it more credit than even I am.

I'd bet my life that if two legends of the game Nesta or Henry were asked to compare MLS to a level the lowest they'd reach is a second division in a top country.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Keegan