madmonte Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I think the players know best though... if someone like Torsten Frings is comparing it to the B2 I'm going to listen. I actually rate the B2 ahead of the Championship so in my mind at least he's giving it more credit than even I am.. This. English Championship isn't as high quality as all that. They certainly have some quality players, but often the action is stale...the average team has a lot of workman players without a lot of creativity at their disposal. There are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule, and what I just said, someone could come and list 10 creative championship players and prove me wrong. Well okay, so maybe we'll compare MLS to the Championship. What I just said can apply to MLS too. But not so much Liga MX. I think clubs like Monterrey, Santos Laguna, and Guadalajara, whichever is in form (which varies more than in Europe, certainly, but take the top team of the year...)...I think they compete with teams like Rubin Kazan and PSV. Which certainly puts them above Championship level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 You're right there are certain guys who just can't cut it in Europe but there are so many variables in switching leagues and continents in particular. It's very tough to judge on small sample sizes. The Kei Kamara example was just one that popped in my head. There are countless SPL/Championship players that come here and flop, hell from TFC alone we could make a large list. I think the players know best though... if someone like Torsten Frings is comparing it to the B2 I'm going to listen. I actually rate the B2 ahead of the Championship so in my mind at least he's giving it more credit than even I am. I'd bet my life that if two legends of the game Nesta or Henry were asked to compare MLS to a level the lowest they'd reach is a second division in a top country. That would be a bad bet if they were among friends and being honest. These players are just giving the reports sound bites and I'm surprised how much stock you put into Frings comments. I can't remember which TFC clown boy said it but when TFC came into the league there was an interview with the president/manager/whoever and they asked him to give a comparison to the MLS. His answer was 'The Championship'. Now whatever you believe now, MLS was certainly not equivalent to the Championship in 2006. Or was it just because someone said it? Just last year I stood at a Caps games with a bunch of soccer mad Germans who said the skill level was B3. Ill ask the question again - so what if it is, whats the problem with being B3 quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Ill ask the question again - so what if it is, whats the problem with being B3 quality? Germany is an extremely cheap country to watch a match, even at the B1 level. Liga 3 barely averaged 6,000 spectators per match, despite having capacity almost 3 times that. http://www.transfermarkt.com/en/3-liga/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb_L3.html This tells me that most German's don't believe their 3rd tier is terribly good. It only became "professional" within the last few years. MLS had an average of 18,216, at over 80% capacity. This tells me North Americans think their 1st tier is pretty good. To equate a league drawing 18k with a league drawing 6k means that one of the two set of supporters are pretty dumb. Either Germans vastly underestimate the quality of their 3rd tier or we vastly over-estimate the quality of MLS, particularly as our tickets are much more expensive. MLS may be our only top flight option, but the history of MLS, USL, A-League, CSL, NASL APSL tells us that North American don't buy tickets to soccer games just because someone designates the league as the top tier. If the quality is lacking, people have historically stayed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Germany is an extremely cheap country to watch a match, even at the B1 level. Liga 3 barely averaged 6,000 spectators per match, despite having capacity almost 3 times that. http://www.transfermarkt.com/en/3-liga/besucherzahlen/wettbewerb_L3.html This tells me that most German's don't believe their 3rd tier is terribly good. Or that they have easy access to a higher level of soccer. MLS had an average of 18,216, at over 80% capacity. This tells me North Americans think their 1st tier is pretty good. Or that they do not have easy access to a higher level of soccer. The problem with comparing attendances and the like without context is that there are differences in league structure, non-ticket revenue, and non-playing costs which can have a much larger impact than just who comes through the turnstiles. I say this without prejudice to either the "MLS" or "3.Liga" side of the argument; I am utterly ignorant of German soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 What about the fact that USL, early NASL, APSL, and CSL all had **** attendance despite being labelled first tier? Or do you need those numbers? Even early MLS did poorly at the gate. The economics of World football are much more gate driven than most North American sports. The EPL is the only league that comes remotely close to the TV revenue to NFL, NBA, and MLB. I'm not sure what other non-ticket revenue would be significant other than merchandise which is presumably closely related to attendance. Sure, ****ty clubs in Portugal can survive in the top tier relying on the big 3 to pay their way. But they're still ****ty clubs. Their attendance is perfectly reflective of this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) ^Portugal, Ukraine, Belgium are all guilty of this. A few top clubs, and in those leagues they have a few teams pulling 2500 fans or so. In the TOP tier. Look at Sweden. About 8000 average. Denmark, 6700. Decent leagues. 6000 in Germany's third tier? That's pretty bloody respectable! If people can catch on to CONCACAF champions league...football in North America has a definite future, with the numbers the MLS generates. Doing really well actually...if payroll restrictions get removed, it could get crazy. And hopefully the quality of the players in the USA and Canada follows suit with the fanbase given time. And if the Champions League does catch on, then the popularity of Liga MX would feed the popularity of MLS a bit, and vice versa, improving both leagues' attendances. I think it has already to an extent, as the link at the bottom may surprise. And then one day far in the future, the Club World Cup isn't some team from Brazil vs the Champions League winners, it actually is a competition worth watching. THAT would be exciting. Rose coloured goggles. Anyway, here's something interesting... Attendances for the top 20 leagues. http://forum.ea.com/uk/posts/list/1888445.page Edited July 5, 2013 by madmonte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 That would be a bad bet if they were among friends and being honest. These players are just giving the reports sound bites and I'm surprised how much stock you put into Frings comments. I can't remember which TFC clown boy said it but when TFC came into the league there was an interview with the president/manager/whoever and they asked him to give a comparison to the MLS. His answer was 'The Championship'. Now whatever you believe now, MLS was certainly not equivalent to the Championship in 2006. Or was it just because someone said it? Just last year I stood at a Caps games with a bunch of soccer mad Germans who said the skill level was B3. Ill ask the question again - so what if it is, whats the problem with being B3 quality? There wouldn't be a problem if it was B3 quality but it's higher. So what if the German fan boys thought that? Foreign fans are always "snobby" when it comes to North American soccer. You're saying I shouldn't listen to one of the greatest German players of the past 15 years but I should listen to some German guys who stood in the stands with you? Ya ok... Olivier Occean tore up the German 2nd and 3rd divisions. There is no way he would be able to do what he did in the B3 in MLS. B3 is good but you're not gonna find the quality players that MLS boasts at that level. I'm not saying that B3 is bad, it isn't, just that MLS is higher. Look at Jonathan Bealieu Bourgault... played for years in Germany in the 2nd (briefly) and 3rd divisions but can't find a job in MLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) What about the fact that USL, early NASL, APSL, and CSL all had **** attendance despite being labelled first tier? Or do you need those numbers? Even early MLS did poorly at the gate. The economics of World football are much more gate driven than most North American sports. The EPL is the only league that comes remotely close to the TV revenue to NFL, NBA, and MLB. I'm not sure what other non-ticket revenue would be significant other than merchandise which is presumably closely related to attendance. Sure, ****ty clubs in Portugal can survive in the top tier relying on the big 3 to pay their way. But they're still ****ty clubs. Their attendance is perfectly reflective of this fact. I'm not so sure about this. Take Spain for example, where TV rights are currently negotiated by teams (This is changing to the collective potentially, but that's outside the point). In the article below Rayo Valenco described as a minnow is listed as "only" earning 14M EUR a season on TV rights. Attendance numbers can be deceiving. We don't really get an apples-to-apples comparison with the numbers. There are plenty of clubs in world football that regularly draw crap attendance for whatever reason, but are still hold a great deal of importance. http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1486306/spain-sell-collective-tv-rights-liga-clubs?cc=5901 I'd leave it at this: MLS is growing, but it has a very long way to go before it reaches the level of significance most european clubs have. The sport is less a part of our culture and has much less mass appeal. Edited July 5, 2013 by ag futbol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 ^Which clubs below 18k in average attendance are regarded with a "great deal of importance?" I can't really think of any off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 There are a number, some leagues just don't draw fans to the gate outside of big matchups. Example: Santos of brazil had an average regular season attendance of 10k. You'd be surprised, some teams just aren't strong at the gate but are still far more powerful economically than MLS teams. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Santos_FC_season You can see a number of Italian clubs below the 18k water mark as well. http://www.soccerstats.com/attendance.asp?league=italy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I thought I was pretty safe in assuming that B3 level clubs are not generating 70m euro in transfer dollars. Udinese raised $22m in transfers in 2012/13, Siena raised $16m, and I assume all get more than the $1.5m or so per club in TV revenue that MLS clubs get. I understand that TV revenue and transfers can make up for attendance deficiencies, but this is only true in certain select areas. The question was never is MLS on par with the Italian or Brasilian Serie A. Obviously TV and transfer money are very significant to these leagues. In B3, or the various other crap leagues that Euro snobs trot out as "on par" with MLS, these factors are completely irrelevant. There is no TV money and no transfer revenue. So what, if not attendance, is a good metric for comparison in these examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanovski94 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 That would be a bad bet if they were among friends and being honest. These players are just giving the reports sound bites and I'm surprised how much stock you put into Frings comments. I can't remember which TFC clown boy said it but when TFC came into the league there was an interview with the president/manager/whoever and they asked him to give a comparison to the MLS. His answer was 'The Championship'. Now whatever you believe now, MLS was certainly not equivalent to the Championship in 2006. Or was it just because someone said it? Just last year I stood at a Caps games with a bunch of soccer mad Germans who said the skill level was B3. Ill ask the question again - so what if it is, whats the problem with being B3 quality? All the Ledgerwood/Bourgault haters would feel dumb because they dont like German Div 3 guys on the MNT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanovski94 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 ^Portugal, Ukraine, Belgium are all guilty of this. A few top clubs, and in those leagues they have a few teams pulling 2500 fans or so. In the TOP tier. Look at Sweden. About 8000 average. Denmark, 6700. Decent leagues. 6000 in Germany's third tier? That's pretty bloody respectable! If people can catch on to CONCACAF champions league...football in North America has a definite future, with the numbers the MLS generates. Doing really well actually...if payroll restrictions get removed, it could get crazy. And hopefully the quality of the players in the USA and Canada follows suit with the fanbase given time. And if the Champions League does catch on, then the popularity of Liga MX would feed the popularity of MLS a bit, and vice versa, improving both leagues' attendances. I think it has already to an extent, as the link at the bottom may surprise. And then one day far in the future, the Club World Cup isn't some team from Brazil vs the Champions League winners, it actually is a competition worth watching. THAT would be exciting. Rose coloured goggles. Anyway, here's something interesting... Attendances for the top 20 leagues. http://forum.ea.com/uk/posts/list/1888445.page North americans in general dont find interest in International competition. EX. NBA, MLB,NFL,NHL unlesss its national teams type of international competition. This is because our leagues are long and dont cooperate with and the other sporting federations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VWFC Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 There wouldn't be a problem if it was B3 quality but it's higher. So what if the German fan boys thought that? Foreign fans are always "snobby" when it comes to North American soccer. You're saying I shouldn't listen to one of the greatest German players of the past 15 years but I should listen to some German guys who stood in the stands with you? Ya ok... Olivier Occean tore up the German 2nd and 3rd divisions. There is no way he would be able to do what he did in the B3 in MLS. B3 is good but you're not gonna find the quality players that MLS boasts at that level. I'm not saying that B3 is bad, it isn't, just that MLS is higher. Look at Jonathan Bealieu Bourgault... played for years in Germany in the 2nd (briefly) and 3rd divisions but can't find a job in MLS You have no idea who those people are or if they're snobby. You're throwing a lot of stereotypes and generalizations around without much back up. People stood in the stands can be a lot more honest than a player being asked in front of camera about a league that is paying his wage and he feels responsible for promoting. Keep saying MLS is higher, but without a little evidence I'll agree with what most people are saying and backing up - MLS is on par with B3/League 1 and some of the lowest of B2/Championship teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I thought I was pretty safe in assuming that B3 level clubs are not generating 70m euro in transfer dollars. Udinese raised $22m in transfers in 2012/13, Siena raised $16m, and I assume all get more than the $1.5m or so per club in TV revenue that MLS clubs get. I understand that TV revenue and transfers can make up for attendance deficiencies, but this is only true in certain select areas. The question was never is MLS on par with the Italian or Brasilian Serie A. Obviously TV and transfer money are very significant to these leagues. In B3, or the various other crap leagues that Euro snobs trot out as "on par" with MLS, these factors are completely irrelevant. There is no TV money and no transfer revenue. So what, if not attendance, is a good metric for comparison in these examples? Ok, I see what you're saying in the context of comparing lower leagues. Agreed, attendance is part of the equation. I would also consider average salary and those sorts of things obviously. But I wouldn't simply end the argument there. It's a tough thing to summarize succinctly... but I'd say beyond explicit economic factors you have to look at the environment the club operates in and how that can play into the equation. for example: you have a soccer mad country that spits out high quality youth prospects. That's a nice natural resource for a team to take advantage of without any real extra investment. Anyway, I'd say that in terms of England we'd be talking about mid CCC, upper league one. It feels about right, I don't think that's too different from what you are suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Whether the players are correct or not, i do think most believe mls is at championship/d2 europe level. Players talk. Before signing w mls, they would talk to ppl that know mls, esp other players. I dont think most would sign for mls if they thought the level of play was too low for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegan Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) You have no idea who those people are or if they're snobby. You're throwing a lot of stereotypes and generalizations around without much back up. People stood in the stands can be a lot more honest than a player being asked in front of camera about a league that is paying his wage and he feels responsible for promoting. Keep saying MLS is higher, but without a little evidence I'll agree with what most people are saying and backing up - MLS is on par with B3/League 1 and some of the lowest of B2/Championship teams. You're right that I have no idea who they were.. did you? I don't care where someone is from I actually listen to their knowledge and reasoning. I know a lot of Canadians who are die hard hockey fans and think they know a lot when they are actually ignorant as hell. I bet I could take "hockey mad" Canadians over to watch SM-Liiga and they might compare the level to the OHL but they'd be dead wrong. Most people aren't saying that but whatever and I am actually backing up my facts. Friend and Occean have both led the B2 Germany in scoring. Would they lead MLS in scoring? No chance. JBB played in the 2nd and 3rd divisions, couldn't make an MLS team... So if B2 is apparently a league above MLS why do we continually get destroyed by teams full of MLS players? Namely that Honduras team that just thrashed us 8-1. Goals coming from Jerry Bengston, Mario Martinez... Bernardez has our strikers in his pocket all game. Just look at an MLS starting XI side by side with a B3 roster.. game over. We're talking playing level here which would be guys on the pitch week in and week out, not guys who are sitting in the press box. Torsten Frings would never sign in the B3. The fact is that people outside of the USA will ALWAYS try to bring down MLS for the fact that they don't like Americans. It's the simple truth and that will happen until the day football ceases to be played. I used to be in the same boat as you in thinking that B3 was on par with MLS but the league has pulled its socks up big time. Edited July 6, 2013 by Keegan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 North americans in general dont find interest in International competition. EX. NBA, MLB,NFL,NHL unlesss its national teams type of international competition. This is because our leagues are long and dont cooperate with and the other sporting federations. They sure don't, and it's sort of a shame, actually. Just look at an MLS starting XI side by side with a B3 roster.. game over. We're talking playing level here which would be guys on the pitch week in and week out, not guys who are sitting in the press box. Torsten Frings would never sign in the B3. The fact is that people outside of the USA will ALWAYS try to bring down MLS for the fact that they don't like Americans. It's the simple truth and that will happen until the day football ceases to be played. I used to be in the same boat as you in thinking that B3 was on par with MLS but the league has pulled its socks up big time. ^Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolvid Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 You're right that I have no idea who they were.. did you? I don't care where someone is from I actually listen to their knowledge and reasoning. I know a lot of Canadians who are die hard hockey fans and think they know a lot when they are actually ignorant as hell. I bet I could take "hockey mad" Canadians over to watch SM-Liiga and they might compare the level to the OHL but they'd be dead wrong. Most people aren't saying that but whatever and I am actually backing up my facts. Friend and Occean have both led the B2 Germany in scoring. Would they lead MLS in scoring? No chance. JBB played in the 2nd and 3rd divisions, couldn't make an MLS team... So if B2 is apparently a league above MLS why do we continually get destroyed by teams full of MLS players? Namely that Honduras team that just thrashed us 8-1. Goals coming from Jerry Bengston, Mario Martinez... Bernardez has our strikers in his pocket all game. Just look at an MLS starting XI side by side with a B3 roster.. game over. We're talking playing level here which would be guys on the pitch week in and week out, not guys who are sitting in the press box. Torsten Frings would never sign in the B3. The fact is that people outside of the USA will ALWAYS try to bring down MLS for the fact that they don't like Americans. It's the simple truth and that will happen until the day football ceases to be played. I used to be in the same boat as you in thinking that B3 was on par with MLS but the league has pulled its socks up big time. That's why I'll be rooting for the USA and the other concacaf teams in the world cup so they can leave a good impression for our region and make them idiots shut the **** up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 On transfer revenue: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/3-liga/transfers-saisons/wettbewerb_L3.html http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/3-liga/transfers-saisons/wettbewerb_L3.html On TV revenue (B3 or more properly 3.Liga, approximately 1/2 of current MLS per club revenue in 2008) http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2008/07/20/3liga-germanys-newest-professional-league/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deschamp86 Posted July 6, 2013 Author Share Posted July 6, 2013 Although its a pretty small sample size, Jonathan Beaulieu-Bourgault played B3 last year but was unable to earn a contract with TFC this year. Julian de Guzman played in MLS before moving over to B2. Andrew Hainault looks poised to do the same. Though it was a few years back, Ali Gerba played League One before he was a bust in MLS. There will always be players that break the mold and excel in leagues higher than what they've played in before (Luke Rodgers) and there are also players that will crap the bed in MLS when they have an extensive pedigree (Too many to name), but the trend seems to suggest (at least within this sample) that MLS is about on par with B2 and certainly above League One. Back to the topic though, Does anyone know if Dever Orgill has Canadian citizenship? I know he has played a couple times for Jamaica but unsure if he is cap tied. He seems to be doing pretty well for himself in Finland right now with 8 goals and 3 assists in 13 games for IFK Mariehamn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 He's married to a Canadian and definitely has his PR. Not sure about a passport. The matches he's played for Jamaica appear to be friendlies: http://www.transfermarkt.com/en/dever-orgill/leistungsdaten/spieler_103621_2010.html So I think he's probably a candidate. He was always rated by the Caps ahead of REB, but has had some personal issues that he seems to have grown out of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 http://www.olympique-et-lyonnais.com/club/amicaux-les-adversaires-de-lol-a-la-loupe,61414.html Juninho also says MLS is comparable to Ligue 2 France. It's been pretty consistent by players saying MLS is comparable to tier 2 top Euro leagues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmonte Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 http://www.olympique-et-lyonnais.com/club/amicaux-les-adversaires-de-lol-a-la-loupe,61414.html Juninho also says MLS is comparable to Ligue 2 France. It's been pretty consistent by players saying MLS is comparable to tier 2 top Euro leagues At some point in the next few years the training wheels are going to fall off. In other words, some of the cap restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 At some point in the next few years the training wheels are going to fall off. In other words, some of the cap restrictions. In truth a lot of cap/roster restriction has been lifted already, mainly in form of 3 DPs allowed per team, and MLS allowing domestic DPs (Wondo, I guess Shalrie Joseph counts) I think the biggest thing to improve quality of league is not just the influx of good, not completely in retirement age int players, but good domestic players staying in MLS. 5 yrs ago players can't wait to jump ship and try out in Europe, esp in Scandinavian/lower tier Euro leagues. Now, most players will give serious thought about staying in MLS, because staying in MLS means you'll get a fair shot at USMNT squad. A player like Zusi 5 yrs ago would have never re-signed with MLS and be gone to Europe at first opportunity. Now, he's signed 2 contract extensions with MLS. I think the next CBA will have a decent rise in salary cap, though not like 5 mil in one shot, which should help keeping more good domestic players on a fair wage in the league. What I would like to see is a domestic DP mechanism like Aussie A League, to keep guys like Gonzalez and Zusi around even longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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