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Canadian Nationalization Countdown


deschamp86

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I definitely didn't say I thought it would be for the definite good of the league. But you are right in what you are saying about keeping the domestics. Imagine how nuts the Sounders would be if they signed Altidore for example. Right now it's difficult for that to happen, and for Altidore to grow, because the overall average quality of competition is not high enough. It's improving though, of course. As you say, Zusi could easily be overseas too.

But the training wheels falling off, as I put it, is another story altogether...where there are no restrictions. And it could be negative, pushing fringe teams that aren't making a lot of money out of the league. So they aren't ready for it yet, but they are close.

It would be a damn shame to end up like Belgium or whatever, with 2-5 teams with 20,000 attendance and 15 teams with 5000 and less because only certain teams are competitive year after year.

That can fly in Europe, because those teams feed the whole league, then have Europe as their future backdrop. It's hard to imagine that flying in MLS.

In other words, there will probably always be a cap. But the cap can rise. Big time.

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I think having a cap is fine; but the cap has to be a soft cap. The league has so far grown pretty quickly and has been softening the cap rules and it's going to go on for a bit more softening. The big thing will be the next round of TV deals in a couple years. As the league grows up and becomes less gate driven; the overall quality will continue to improve.

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For the TV deals- keep in mind that the US deals are worth 27 million this year for the league

MLB gets 800 million per year (plus all the local deals which are much more than that)

NFL gets 4.5 billion

NBA gets 930 million per year

NHL gets 200 million per year in the US plus another 50 or so million in Canada

Even the CFL gets 30 million per year so the MLS has a lot of room to grow it's revenue base from the next round of TV contracts. A big thing for them will be to continue to grow past 20 teams if they want to get that kind of broadcast money.

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I think having a cap is fine; but the cap has to be a soft cap. The league has so far grown pretty quickly and has been softening the cap rules and it's going to go on for a bit more softening. The big thing will be the next round of TV deals in a couple years. As the league grows up and becomes less gate driven; the overall quality will continue to improve.

I don't see a soft cap coming in. I don't think MLS wants to see MLB type of situation happening in the interest of parity, and want to force teams to make profit.

For the TV deals- keep in mind that the US deals are worth 27 million this year for the league

MLB gets 800 million per year (plus all the local deals which are much more than that)

NFL gets 4.5 billion

NBA gets 930 million per year

NHL gets 200 million per year in the US plus another 50 or so million in Canada

Even the CFL gets 30 million per year so the MLS has a lot of room to grow it's revenue base from the next round of TV contracts. A big thing for them will be to continue to grow past 20 teams if they want to get that kind of broadcast money.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2013/07/05/the-economics-behind-new-yorks-100-million-mls-team/

worth a read

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You have no idea who those people are or if they're snobby. You're throwing a lot of stereotypes and generalizations around without much back up. People stood in the stands can be a lot more honest than a player being asked in front of camera about a league that is paying his wage and he feels responsible for promoting.

Keep saying MLS is higher, but without a little evidence I'll agree with what most people are saying and backing up - MLS is on par with B3/League 1 and some of the lowest of B2/Championship teams.

You are the one with no idea. What is your back up? A couple of German guys who would have said MLS was B3 level no matter what because they are European and look down on any non-European soccer? And that is according to you "most people" while the opinion of players is not to be trusted? And I am not throwing around stereotypes, I lived in Germany for a decade and met tons of people like that. The classic was all the Germans/Portugese I knew in 2002 who didn't think the US belonged on the same pitch as Germany/Portugal in a World Cup before the games. I don't think I have ever cheered for the US before in anything but man was that a sweet victory over Portugal and Germany needing goalkeeper Frings to save the day for them.

How many B3 games have you actually watched yourself? I have watched well over a hundred live in the stadium and it is well below the level I see watching the Impact. MLS level is around B2 level just as Frings says. You can claim all you want that players like Frings and Nesta are just saying what people want to hear but I guarantee you if MLS was B3 level they would not subject themselves to playing at that level. The MLS teams have better ideal 11s than most B2 teams (ie. starting eleven before injuries/suspensions) but the B2 teams have better depth and consistency throughout the lineup.

But seriously coming on here and telling us that MLS is B3 level when you have not even watched B3 yourself and claiming we have no evidence while your evidence is the word of a couple of guys you met at a game is incredibly stupid and ignorant!

Edited by Grizzly
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It's a tough question when you're comparing the leagues- but I'd say that MLS has more parity than most of the mid table European top leagues.

Most teams would play competitively in the Championship or B2 but they would also be able to play in the mid table 1st division leagues in Europe as well. A lot of those leagues have 2 or 3 really good teams and a bunch of bottom feeders that are similar or lower quality than the MLS teams.

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After seeing Canada's forwards play today against Martinique. I'd say we ask Stephen Harper to speed up the process for Camilo and Felipe to become eligible for Canadian Citizenship. We'll need all the help and prayers we can get to even be competitive in future WCQ and Gold Cup competitions :(

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After seeing Canada's forwards play today against Martinique. I'd say we ask Stephen Harper to speed up the process for Camilo and Felipe to become eligible for Canadian Citizenship. We'll need all the help and prayers we can get to even be competitive in future WCQ and Gold Cup competitions :(

You know that FIFA has rules that say 5 years, right?

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I'll be honest, if Canada must win by going full mercenary mode with little actual local Canadian talent, and a bunch of guys that gained residency as adults, I won't much care for them as a fan.

I think you'd be in the minority. If Canada starts winning games with "mercenaries", more Average Joe Canadians wouldn't care, as long as they represented the Maple Leaf proud. I'd be honoured if Felipe, Camilo and Koffie played for the Nats. I can't think of any domestic players being better than them at there positions.

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In this forum I have made it extremely clear that those that play competitive soccer come from foreign parents ie millions and millions are not involved and missing that famous Canadian fighting spirit and who is to blame .....that racist media.What do we do is to challenge them email and call them stay after them and never ever give up.These pricks and editors are a major disaster and I assume this is not new to you but never has been put in black this strongly.So don't blame the CSA unless you blame them for not going after that media which could have made it worse for them but we can and we can make that difference.Soccer is a very Canadian game with a history far surpassing any sport in Canada.That Canadian spirit showed in 1888 and was way ahead of any country in the world.

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I think you'd be in the minority. If Canada starts winning games with "mercenaries", more Average Joe Canadians wouldn't care, as long as they represented the Maple Leaf proud. I'd be honoured if Felipe, Camilo and Koffie played for the Nats. I can't think of any domestic players being better than them at there positions.

I can name many on these forums who have said the same, but I agree that I may be in the minority once you consider Average Joe Canada. Still, I'd know I wasn't really cheering on Canada, and from a personal perspective I wouldn't enjoy the wins as much.

The dream of raising players in Canada to play this game is not dead with me. And I would be 100% more proud and honoured to witness it.

But every time I raise that, someone come in with the "shades of grey" issue, ie what about a kid that's 12 years old and starts playing here? What about if they are 14?

Let's just say that the more naturally Canadian, the more naturally proud I'd be of our country for being able to produce our own talent.

Edited by madmonte
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It's not very Canadian to deny immigrants their right to feel Canadian. That seems more German or Italian or something.

That has very little to do with what I am talking about. You are intentionally misunderstanding me to make a point, while clearly not reading my posts in full, in order to belittle my point with a bit of slander. I'll forgive it of course, because I consider you a very intelligent poster, normally, but try to understand my reasoning here.

1) I'm talking about professional players coming here to play football and then making a conscious choice to play for our team and choosing not to play for their own nationality.

2) I'm talking about Canada's ability to produce players, rather than having to rely on other countries to produce them for us. There is Canadian pride in that, no?

3) I'm talking about Canadian pride at all levels. It's awfully ****ty to have players come in through our youth systems, work their butts off, only to be told "sorry, we are going with this guy who has residency instead". It would be demoralizing to our youth system to see this continually happen, and would not exactly promote future growth in the sport at the Academy level. Especially considering that we'd be setting these precedents just as we finally HAVE academies that may be producing worthy talent within 5-10 years.

4) I'm talking about the message sent to Canadians who make the choice to go to Europe to develop themselves not wanting to stay Canadian. Hypocrisy feeds itself, whether you make the argument of "only if they couldn't play for their own country or not"

5) "Deny immigrants their right to feel Canadian". I've said this before, but I'll reiterate. Let's take Koffie. He seems to love this country, and goes around saying "Hey, I want to live in Canada for the rest of my life, I feel Canadian, and I love Canada". Do I have a problem with him getting residency? Not as much as going around and asking Camillo "Hey, do you feel Canadian yet? Huh? We sure could use a striker!!! Do you want residency yet?" Koffie, if he has that attitude, that I could accept.

You think Europeans don't feel the same? Jonathan De Guzman doesn't even speak dutch. He got booed by fans from his own national team. They know they he made a mercenary choice, they know him for the scumbag he is, and he got the reception he deserved. To me, it doesn't matter if you are doing it because you aren't good enough for your own country, either. You can usually tell if someone is doing it for love of a country or as a professional choice just by how they treat the decision.

I could keep typing about this, but I've covered enough for the moment. I understand the Canadian melting pot thing fully, so yeah, it's a touch aggravating to always have that argument about "what Canadian is" thrown into my argument, when it isn't valid to the point I'm making. I stand by what I initially say. My level of heartfelt support for the team is correlated to how naturally Canadian it is, as opposed to how mercenary it is.

Edited by madmonte
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For Camilo or Felipe to get citizenship, they would have to make a substantial effort. No player is going to do this for the CMNT alone. Mercenaries get paid. Playing for our nats does not advance your professional career, just ask Junior. Camilo loves Vancouver, loves the fans, and I can see him suiting up for Canada to give something back to the country that has welcomed him. As Carl Valentine and numerous others have done before him. Not to mention players like Mike Klukowski, Marcel De Jong, and Pedro Pacheco, who have spent very little time in Canada. It's about pride and sacrifice. Not about $$$, roses and cherries.

The message to young Canadian players is you have to get better. Having three MLS clubs is going to raise the standard and these naturalization examples are part of this.

I don't see how Camilo or Felipe are different than any other immigrant who wants to run for MP, or some other public office. If you hold a passport, you meet FIFA definitions, you should be able to play. Full stop. All abuses have already been considered by Canada and FIFA.

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For Camilo or Felipe to get citizenship, they would have to make a substantial effort. No player is going to do this for the CMNT alone. Mercenaries get paid. Playing for our nats does not advance your professional career, just ask Junior. Camilo loves Vancouver, loves the fans, and I can see him suiting up for Canada to give something back to the country that has welcomed him. As Carl Valentine and numerous others have done before him. Not to mention players like Mike Klukowski, Marcel De Jong, and Pedro Pacheco, who have spent very little time in Canada. It's about pride and sacrifice. Not about $$$, roses and cherries.

The message to young Canadian players is you have to get better. Having three MLS clubs is going to raise the standard and these naturalization examples are part of this.

I don't see how Camilo or Felipe are different than any other immigrant who wants to run for MP, or some other public office. If you hold a passport, you meet FIFA definitions, you should be able to play. Full stop. All abuses have already been considered by Canada and FIFA.

Is it the same as the substantial effort that Har****** and Jonathan had to put in to get out of Canada? I'm not referring to Camilo necessarily, although I did use him as an example...I prefer to go on a case by case basis. Allow me to use the name Camilo without actually knowing a lot about his individual intentions...if he is like Koffie and loves Canada, fine...

Again, this is a personal thing. Camilo, or Koffie playing for us is fine, I'm not going to be ticked about a couple guys that come here, love the country, and want to be Canadian, as long as it's legitimate. But suiting up for Canada to give something back? Say I was a decent hockey player. I wouldn't move to England at the age of 23, and then put on their colors for their hockey team to "give something back" to England. That would be like slapping my Canadian heritage in the face, I'd be embarrassed. If he wants to be Canadian, be Canadian, don't be Brazilian and playing for Canada to "give something back".

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

I AM saying this. The more players we have that are "mercenary", and the term was meant loosely from the beginning, obviously, the more of those players we have, the less inclined I am to personally cheer for that team. I won't be the only one who feels that way. If I'm in the minority so be it.

The way some of this thread is worded is what gets me...it's almost like a plea to convince people to become Canadian. That's wrong.

And the looseness of mercenary...what is the gain? The ability to play international football. Particularly the World Cup. It's every kid's dream to do this. Take Camilo again, as an example. He could not play for Brazil, so he could not play in the World Cup for Brazil. His next best chance is Canada. Jonathan chose Netherlands because they have a better shot at the world cup. It's why Hoillett is, by all appearances, holding out for a better nation.

A nationalization countdown thread by nature, has the assumption that by the time everyone is in Canada a certain amount of time, we should start looking at their potential to play for our country, or even ask them to. I don't agree with that. As I said, I can accept the attitude of truly wanting to be Canadian, and THEN giving something back.

And while I agree with your message sent to young Canadians, it can send both messages. It can say "you must get better" at the same time it can say "your future in Canada is nil". Guess they'll go play hockey. Yay, right?

Edited by madmonte
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For Camilo or Felipe to get citizenship, they would have to make a substantial effort. No player is going to do this for the CMNT alone. Mercenaries get paid. Playing for our nats does not advance your professional career, just ask Junior. Camilo loves Vancouver, loves the fans, and I can see him suiting up for Canada to give something back to the country that has welcomed him. As Carl Valentine and numerous others have done before him. Not to mention players like Mike Klukowski, Marcel De Jong, and Pedro Pacheco, who have spent very little time in Canada. It's about pride and sacrifice. Not about $$$, roses and cherries.

The message to young Canadian players is you have to get better. Having three MLS clubs is going to raise the standard and these naturalization examples are part of this.

I don't see how Camilo or Felipe are different than any other immigrant who wants to run for MP, or some other public office. If you hold a passport, you meet FIFA definitions, you should be able to play. Full stop. All abuses have already been considered by Canada and FIFA.

In the interests of accuracy, Klukowski spent a lot of time in Canada, in fact, he grew up here. He was born in Austria while his parents were in the process of coming to Canada and shortly afterwards moved to Canada staying here until he was 17 when he went to Europe to pursue a soccer career.

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That has very little to do with what I am talking about. You are intentionally misunderstanding me to make a point, while clearly not reading my posts in full, in order to belittle my point with a bit of slander. I'll forgive it of course, because I consider you a very intelligent poster, normally, but try to understand my reasoning here.

1) I'm talking about professional players coming here to play football and then making a conscious choice to play for our team and choosing not to play for their own nationality.

2) I'm talking about Canada's ability to produce players, rather than having to rely on other countries to produce them for us. There is Canadian pride in that, no?

3) I'm talking about Canadian pride at all levels. It's awfully ****ty to have players come in through our youth systems, work their butts off, only to be told "sorry, we are going with this guy who has residency instead". It would be demoralizing to our youth system to see this continually happen, and would not exactly promote future growth in the sport at the Academy level. Especially considering that we'd be setting these precedents just as we finally HAVE academies that may be producing worthy talent within 5-10 years.

4) I'm talking about the message sent to Canadians who make the choice to go to Europe to develop themselves not wanting to stay Canadian. Hypocrisy feeds itself, whether you make the argument of "only if they couldn't play for their own country or not"

5) "Deny immigrants their right to feel Canadian". I've said this before, but I'll reiterate. Let's take Koffie. He seems to love this country, and goes around saying "Hey, I want to live in Canada for the rest of my life, I feel Canadian, and I love Canada". Do I have a problem with him getting residency? Not as much as going around and asking Camillo "Hey, do you feel Canadian yet? Huh? We sure could use a striker!!! Do you want residency yet?" Koffie, if he has that attitude, that I could accept.

You think Europeans don't feel the same? Jonathan De Guzman doesn't even speak dutch. He got booed by fans from his own national team. They know they he made a mercenary choice, they know him for the scumbag he is, and he got the reception he deserved. To me, it doesn't matter if you are doing it because you aren't good enough for your own country, either. You can usually tell if someone is doing it for love of a country or as a professional choice just by how they treat the decision.

I could keep typing about this, but I've covered enough for the moment. I understand the Canadian melting pot thing fully, so yeah, it's a touch aggravating to always have that argument about "what Canadian is" thrown into my argument, when it isn't valid to the point I'm making. I stand by what I initially say. My level of heartfelt support for the team is correlated to how naturally Canadian it is, as opposed to how mercenary it is.

This is all fine and good and I don't disagree with it but until FIFA changes the rules to make international soccer truly international we have to play by the same rules as everyone else. The big nations are playing players who they naturalize so as a minnow who is regularly losing our best players to better nations we have to do the same as much as we can. Otherwise we are doubly tipping the field against us, playing against teams who have stole our players or players from other countries and are stronger as a result and us being weaker because we are not doing the same thing.

BTW. Jonathon DeGuzman is fluent in Dutch.

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You think Europeans don't feel the same? Jonathan De Guzman doesn't even speak dutch. He got booed by fans from his own national team. They know they he made a mercenary choice, they know him for the scumbag he is, and he got the reception he deserved.

You don't have to make up stories just to get a point across. It makes your whole post look like a joke. Maybe you should apply for the Minister of Propaganda in North Korea with nonsense stories like this.

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You think Europeans don't feel the same? Jonathan De Guzman doesn't even speak dutch. He got booed by fans from his own national team. They know they he made a mercenary choice, they know him for the scumbag he is, and he got the reception he deserved. To me, it doesn't matter if you are doing it because you aren't good enough for your own country, either. You can usually tell if someone is doing it for love of a country or as a professional choice just by how they treat the decision.

Other than the obvious incorrect assumption that he doesn't speak dutch, I'd LOVE to know which game he was booed at, I haven't missed a Netherlands game in at least 5 years and I never heard the crowd boo DeGuzman other than the typical opposing fan heckling that every other Dutch player got. There is a lot more to the JDG2 story than what regularly gets repeated on the board. I DONNNN'T agree at all about how he went about toying around with the fans in the media with his brother and then denying Canada at a Canadian game in a Canadian sweater, but he was on the wrong end of some CSA BS when he was younger. I hope Ed can elaborate as he enlightened me at Fiddler's during WCQ, but I do not remember it word for word and don't want to misquote Ed but JDG isn't exactly the person you make him out to be in your quote.

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Other than the obvious incorrect assumption that he doesn't speak dutch, I'd LOVE to know which game he was booed at, I haven't missed a Netherlands game in at least 5 years and I never heard the crowd boo DeGuzman other than the typical opposing fan heckling that every other Dutch player got. There is a lot more to the JDG2 story than what regularly gets repeated on the board. I DONNNN'T agree at all about how he went about toying around with the fans in the media with his brother and then denying Canada at a Canadian game in a Canadian sweater, but he was on the wrong end of some CSA BS when he was younger. I hope Ed can elaborate as he enlightened me at Fiddler's during WCQ, but I do not remember it word for word and don't want to misquote Ed but JDG isn't exactly the person you make him out to be in your quote.

I'm so sick of this "the CSA treated me bad" excuse. You play for the country not the association. JDG2 can deny it all he wants but the ONLY reason he is playing for Netherlands is because of their status as a football team. I'm sure there are HUNDREDS of hockey players who have been dicked around by Hockey Canada coaches over the years, how many are playing for other countries? ZERO.

"waaaaah, I was treated bad by a youth coach when I was 16 I'm playing for my *blank*. No one has ever gotten dicked around by a coach at 16 there."

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I'm so sick of this "the CSA treated me bad" excuse. You play for the country not the association. JDG2 can deny it all he wants but the ONLY reason he is playing for Netherlands is because of their status as a football team. I'm sure there are HUNDREDS of hockey players who have been dicked around by Hockey Canada coaches over the years, how many are playing for other countries? ZERO.

"waaaaah, I was treated bad by a youth coach when I was 16 I'm playing for my *blank*. No one has ever gotten dicked around by a coach at 16 there."

In the end, your right, the only reason he plays for the Netherlands is because of their status as a footballing nation, no argument there. But where your hockey analogy goes south is that there are thousands of hockey players to replace those hundreds who get dicked around by HC all of which are as good or better. I wish the CSA had this problem but alas we do not (hence this 20 pg thread) and it's not like the CSA were oblivious to JDG2s potential. I doubt he had Oranje dreams when he was 15 playing for the Feyenoord youth but whatever the CSA did, lead him in that direction. I don't condone what JDG2, Hoilett (potentially), Begovic, etc did, but the CSA is as much to blame in a majority of the cases as the players character is.

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You guys are right, it was an incorrect assumption taken from a dutch forum board where I was trying to find actual Dutch people discussing JDG2. My apologies. I went back to find out which particular game they were talking about booing him at, but I can't seem to find my way back to the bloody thing, but I took from what they were saying that he did not know their language, although on google translated it was more like "he sucks at dutch" I'm guessing now. Still looking for that forum...but on it dutch fan after dutch fan was annoyed that he had gotten the call up over Dutch players they thought were more deserving.

Hey, that's why I'm a fan, not a reporter.

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