Aidan Morris

[RichV]

^I had the same thoughts. Maybe a little less money going to the senior teams and a little more going to the youth program.

[InglewoodJack]

25 minutes ago, El Diego said:

The cynic/conspiracy theorist in me can't help but think this was all a ploy for Herdman to be able to come out and say "See! We need more money for youth camps!!"

It doesn’t have to be a conspiracy- we need more money and perhaps if we had some, players like Morris would be closer to Canada. In his case, I don’t know that youth camps would sway American dual nationals, but I think a lot of the dual national European and African-Canadians would feel more inclined to play for Canada. I mean, I’m pretty sure Mo Farsi has represented Canada in tae kwon do, but doesn’t feel Canadian when it comes to soccer. 

[Ottawafan]

Why doesn't the CSA care to raise enough funds to allow the programs to successful?   Is that not part of their mandate?

[grigorio]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

Its funny, because when I saw Herdman taking a shot at the lack of youth camps (a legit concern, but one which has little to do with an American players IMO), my first thought was that he was taking a shot at certain players demanding pay equity given that a big chunk of the WC bonus money was supposed to go to that cause (something that Herdman had said would be one of benefits of making the WC).

If you listen back to some of his interviews pre-WC qualification on how much of an impact he expected that prize money to have on the Canadian soccer landscape, he definitely didn't have "give almost all of it to the players" in mind. Maybe he was naive, but he felt like the 10M would fundamentally change the trajectory of soccer in Canada through re-investment back into the game. I can't imagine his frustration as a self-described "builder" these days. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by grigorio

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

41 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Why doesn't the CSA care to raise enough funds to allow the programs to successful?   Is that not part of their mandate?

Do think there is money they are turning away? 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

Why doesn't the CSA care to raise enough funds to allow the programs to successful?   Is that not part of their mandate?

They tried this by signing the CSB deal..... Look at how theyve been crucified for raising funds and lowering costs. 

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, RichV said:

^I had the same thoughts. Maybe a little less money going to the senior teams and a little more going to the youth program.

Thing is how can Herdman complain, isnt he right in there making the decisions??   He could have cut back on the senior teams budget, he could have some more cheap MLS academy ID camps in TO or Montreal like they did years back.  He could have said no i dont want the iran game because its apt to cause a shit storm and come on guys, dont forfeit the game in Van which is going to cost us millions.  He could have given the "die for the shirt" speech and told them part of that is leaving behind a legacy, which is helping out the youth program so we'll continue to have a strong senior program in 5-10 years.  

[frmr]

48 minutes ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

Do think there is money they are turning away? 

Poor wording of the OP aside (I don't think it's a care issue, I think it's a competency issue), if a business is failing do you automatically assume that they're turning away money or would you assume that there's some operational failures happening? As a body that relies heavily on sponsorship deals, why haven't they struck the deals that at the very least, allow it to operate at the minimum acceptable level which most other countries in the world, and certainly all of the rich countries, can manage. It's not that the team isn't attractive with global superstars, it's not that the horizon isn't attractive with a home World Cup coming up, it's not the manager who has revitalized the on-field product and led both mens and womens sides to unprecedented success, it's not the lack of interest with, again, unprecedented interest in the game and national teams. Nobody knows why Canada Soccer has been, for the most part, an abject failure for the past couple (?) decades except the people who have been inside the rooms where these deals are struck, but I will never, ever, buy this narrative that Canada Soccer is doing absolutely everything they can and there simply is no money available, on the face of the planet, to at least be able to hold fucking youth camps. Their literal job is to go FIND the money to fund the programs. If they fail, they should be fired. I have a pretty big hunch that a big part of the problem is nepotism over meritocracy, which leads to incompetence and apathy. And yes, CSB deal is a step in the right direction, as flawed as it may be. That doesn't negate the litany of missteps that Canada Soccer has made over the years to even put us in this frankly embarrassing situation in the first place.

 

[Bison44]

^^^ AGREE frmr, but on the whole, I dont think the money is there in the volumes we think it is.  We love it, but soccer just hasnt gotten over the hump where we can get corporate CAN to buy in like other nations or with other sports.  And you are right, the guys we put into the CSA are not the kind that can bring in the bucks, its almost like we should outsource that fund raising part to someone else, business types....hmmmmm.  

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, frmr said:

Poor wording of the OP aside (I don't think it's a care issue, I think it's a competency issue), if a business is failing do you automatically assume that they're turning away money or would you assume that there's some operational failures happening? As a body that relies heavily on sponsorship deals, why haven't they struck the deals that at the very least, allow it to operate at the minimum acceptable level which most other countries in the world, and certainly all of the rich countries, can manage. It's not that the team isn't attractive with global superstars, it's not that the horizon isn't attractive with a home World Cup coming up, it's not the manager who has revitalized the on-field product and led both mens and womens sides to unprecedented success, it's not the lack of interest with, again, unprecedented interest in the game and national teams. Nobody knows why Canada Soccer has been, for the most part, an abject failure for the past couple (?) decades except the people who have been inside the rooms where these deals are struck, but I will never, ever, buy this narrative that Canada Soccer is doing absolutely everything they can and there simply is no money available, on the face of the planet, to at least be able to hold fucking youth camps. Their literal job is to go FIND the money to fund the programs. If they fail, they should be fired. I have a pretty big hunch that a big part of the problem is nepotism over meritocracy, which leads to incompetence and apathy. And yes, CSB deal is a step in the right direction, as flawed as it may be. That doesn't negate the litany of missteps that Canada Soccer has made over the years to even put us in this frankly embarrassing situation in the first place.

 

I dont think its accurate to say that the CSA is a body that relies heavily on sponsorship deals. Prior to the CSB deal we were generating about 1million in sponsorship. Our revenues in 2019 were 24 million. Thats 4%.  Is there room to grow - absolutely but the assumption that our lack of available funds is down to sponsorship is flawed.  With the CSB deal that sponsorship revenue is about 16% of total revenue (give or take). Thats massive growth in a few years. If we said that we will 4x our sponsorship revenue in the next 4 years, every single fan would 100% take this. 

[Bigandy]

14 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

^^^ AGREE frmr, but on the whole, I dont think the money is there in the volumes we think it is.  We love it, but soccer just hasnt gotten over the hump where we can get corporate CAN to buy in like other nations or with other sports.  And you are right, the guys we put into the CSA are not the kind that can bring in the bucks, its almost like we should outsource that fund raising part to someone else, business types....hmmmmm.  

If only there was some type of business for canada soccer markeeting. A canada soccer business of sorts. 

[Mattd97]

10 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

If only there was some type of business for canada soccer markeeting. A canada soccer business of sorts. 

all the facetiousness about the CSB here is kindve weird, cause okay youve given the sponsorship part to these legendary top-class business minds -- and we still havent seen the big dollar deals (according to them themselves) and even if we do they dont go to the program they go to the CSB.  so whats your point other than some sort of millionaire jock-riding?

[Bigandy]

42 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

all the facetiousness about the CSB here is kindve weird, cause okay youve given the sponsorship part to these legendary top-class business minds -- and we still havent seen the big dollar deals (according to them themselves) and even if we do they dont go to the program they go to the CSB.  so whats your point other than some sort of millionaire jock-riding?

Its not millionaire jock riding. Its about the numbers. No one is saying the CSB is legendary but they are better suited than CSA. 

Pre CSB we had under 1 million in sponsorship revenue. we had a 1 million cost of a broadcast deal. 

Post CSB we get 4 million from CSB and we get free broadcasting so minus 1 mill in cost.

The CSB at its peak makes 8.2 million in revenue minus 4 million to CSA minus the cost to do business (lets say 1 million). They also leverage the CPL which the CSA cant do without the CSB deal. At most, the CSB makes 3.2 million (which is likely way less in non world cup years). So the CSA makes 4million in profit. The CSB makes 3.2 or less in profit. 

Its not jock riding. Objectively look at the numbers and tell me how this deal is horrible. Can it be improved - yes. But to say I am millionaire jock riding means the deal is clearly 1 sided. Why dont you talk about the financials and explain where the riding is happening. 

[Mattd97]

36 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Its not millionaire jock riding. Its about the numbers. No one is saying the CSB is legendary but they are better suited than CSA. 

Pre CSB we had under 1 million in sponsorship revenue. we had a 1 million cost of a broadcast deal. 

Post CSB we get 4 million from CSB and we get free broadcasting so minus 1 mill in cost.

The CSB at its peak makes 8.2 million in revenue minus 4 million to CSA minus the cost to do business (lets say 1 million). They also leverage the CPL which the CSA cant do without the CSB deal. At most, the CSB makes 3.2 million (which is likely way less in non world cup years). So the CSA makes 4million in profit. The CSB makes 3.2 or less in profit. 

Its not jock riding. Objectively look at the numbers and tell me how this deal is horrible. Can it be improved - yes. But to say I am millionaire jock riding means the deal is clearly 1 sided. Why dont you talk about the financials and explain where the riding is happening. 

i mean my question would be how does outsourcing it help the youth teams at all? unless we think the 2 million or whatever is doing it. no doubt that was better than what they were doing on their own (due to both the lack of success on the field before as well as their own incompetence) but thats not saying much. certainly not saying enough to mention them and their benefit 3 times on one page of Aidan Morris.  That would be where my own facetious jock riding comment comes from.  Cause again, even if they quadruple sponsorship money, do the youth programs get anything out of that? My (admittedly limited cause i got bored of it all) understanding is that it all goes to the CSB. Happy to be wrong

[Ottawafan]

3 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

Do think there is money they are turning away? 

No I don’t. 

[Ottawafan]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

They tried this by signing the CSB deal..... Look at how theyve been crucified for raising funds and lowering costs. 

And yet they can’t field enough youth camps. Something is wrong here. 

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

i mean my question would be how does outsourcing it help the youth teams at all? unless we think the 2 million or whatever is doing it. no doubt that was better than what they were doing on their own (due to both the lack of success on the field before as well as their own incompetence) but thats not saying much. certainly not saying enough to mention them and their benefit 3 times on one page of Aidan Morris.  That would be where my own facetious jock riding comment comes from.  Cause again, even if they quadruple sponsorship money, do the youth programs get anything out of that? My (admittedly limited cause i got bored of it all) understanding is that it all goes to the CSB. Happy to be wrong

Well your original post didnt talk about youth teams at all, which is why I responded to what you actually said. 

This post essentially is saying that revenue brought in is no good unless it helps the youth team. In order to pay for youth teams, we need to have cash available. The more revenue we bring in, the higher liklihood that we can run camps. The CSB deal is just one small component (4%) of revenue. 

All our resources are currently tied up in the CBA proposal, lost revenue from strikes, costs for audits etc. It's unlikely that we would run youth camps even if we had cash as we are in such a tumultuous time. 

With the CSB deal, we have 4 million more funding and youth playing CPL which is producing players like never before (even if its not quite up to the national team standard in most cases). I would say that the CSB deal provides the best youth development possible from a business transaction outside of some unrealistic sponsorship that gives  10+ million a year. 

The CSB deal does not take anything away from youth development.

Running youth national camps is not related to the CSB in any shape or form other than its one of many revenue sources.

P.S. I dont love the CSA but to call them incompetent because their core competency is running a soccer federation and not marketing is ignorant. Do you want your plumber to focus on marketing or plumbing? Outsourcing is done in every business and that doesnt make them incompemtent, it means their focus lies elsewhere or they can realize cost efficiencies. Choosing to outsource instead of thinking they can do everything better than everyone else is my definition of competence.  

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Ottawafan said:

And yet they can’t field enough youth camps. Something is wrong here. 

Come on man. Point to where the financial irregularity is. Look at the numbers. Youre constantly bashing the CSB and CSA without ever using any financial data. 

Do you expect that without the CSB deal we would run youth camps? 

Do you believe that the CSB deal (4% of revenue) is a high enough percentage of our revenue that it is the sole reason we can or cannot hold youth camps? If so, what is the alternative scenario where we lose the CSB deal but can all of the sudden run youth teams? 

I think a lack of youth teams is a huge problem too, but dont just bash to bash. 

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Come on man. Point to where the financial irregularity is. Look at the numbers. Youre constantly bashing the CSB and CSA without ever using any financial data. 

Do you expect that without the CSB deal we would run youth camps? 

Do you believe that the CSB deal (4% of revenue) is a high enough percentage of our revenue that it is the sole reason we can or cannot hold youth camps? If so, what is the alternative scenario where we lose the CSB deal but can all of the sudden run youth teams? 

I think a lack of youth teams is a huge problem too, but dont just bash to bash. 

You sure love caping for the incompetence of the CSA. 

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

You sure love caping for the incompetence of the CSA. 

Can you use some actual data to show what i am capping for that is incompetence?

Why do you want to hate on the CSA. They have some massive flaws but I am rooting for them to succeed and give credit where its due and criticism where its due. Youre placing criticism where it is not due.  

[Ottawafan]

I never brought up the CSB. Not sure why you entered it into the discussion. 
 

I bag on the CSA in this case because they are incompetent.  No money and no youth camps. 

[frmr]

Am I naive in thinking this whole problem could be solved by putting together a task force, going out and putting together in-depth reports on say, twenty federations; some top European countries, some poorer European countries, Australia/New Zealand, a couple African, a few Asian, and the rest Concacaf/CONMEBOL. Do some in-depth reporting on their finances, sponsorship deals, costs, marketing, corporate structure, payroll, whatever. Distill all of these reports down to one report on key changes that could be made based on how other, functional federations operate and how they could apply to Canada. Of course a lot of the information wouldn't apply, but I just refuse to believe that this seemingly impossible problem to solve here in Canada, hasn't already been solved many, many times over across the globe. Some combination of solutions employed by other federations could surely be put to use in Canada to at least make us functional. Even just looking at Australia alone could probably shed a lot of light since they no doubt face a lot of similar challenges as we do. Are we aware that Canada Soccer has ever done anything like this?

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I never brought up the CSB. Not sure why you entered it into the discussion. 
 

I bag on the CSA in this case because they are incompetent.  No money and no youth camps. 

I brought up the CSB deal because that was the topic of the entire conversation you entered in? You literally responded to my quote regarding the CSB...... why would the intial topic not be part of the discussion? 

As for bagging on the CSA, you are just making a grand statement again without backing it up. Is the CSA incompetent because they cant generate revenues that grossly outweigh costs? Perhaps. 

You could also claim the CSA is doing an incredible job given the financial restrictions we have, the sheer magnitude of geography our players have to travel, the lack of general interest in the sport in Canada. I mean, look at whats happened in the last 4 years. Without the CSA, theres no herdman, theres less duals (without herdman), likely no WCQ, no hosting the WC, no CPL, national team games not being broadcasted (or having to pay to broadcast). But Hey, everything the CSA touches turns to rot and they are wildly incompetent at EVERYTHING they do. 

[Bigandy]

Just now, frmr said:

Am I naive in thinking this whole problem could be solved by putting together a task force, going out and putting together in-depth reports on say, twenty federations; some top European countries, some poorer European countries, Australia/New Zealand, a couple African, a few Asian, and the rest Concacaf/CONMEBOL. Do some in-depth reporting on their finances, sponsorship deals, costs, marketing, corporate structure, payroll, whatever. Distill all of these reports down to one report on key changes that could be made based on how other, functional federations operate and how they could apply to Canada. Of course a lot of the information wouldn't apply, but I just refuse to believe that this seemingly impossible problem to solve here in Canada, hasn't already been solved many, many times over across the globe. Some combination of solutions employed by other federations could surely be put to use in Canada to at least make us functional. Even just looking at Australia alone could probably shed a lot of light since they no doubt face a lot of similar challenges as we do. Are we aware that Canada Soccer has ever done anything like this?

I think thats a brilliant idea. To a lesser degree, the CSB is a product of exactly what you are talking about (copying the USA deal). The CSB deal has arguably changed the landscape of soccer in Canada. Its still fairly early to see the long term effects of the CSB deal but soccer has never been stronger, our team has never preformed better and our depth is at an all time high on the horizon of hosting a WC. It is possible that adding a few more functional changes plus our current momentum could see our financial problems be solved in the next few years. However its likely to take time and not be an overnight fix. 

[Ottawafan]

20 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I brought up the CSB deal because that was the topic of the entire conversation you entered in? You literally responded to my quote regarding the CSB...... why would the intial topic not be part of the discussion? 

As for bagging on the CSA, you are just making a grand statement again without backing it up. Is the CSA incompetent because they cant generate revenues that grossly outweigh costs? Perhaps. 

You could also claim the CSA is doing an incredible job given the financial restrictions we have, the sheer magnitude of geography our players have to travel, the lack of general interest in the sport in Canada. I mean, look at whats happened in the last 4 years. Without the CSA, theres no herdman, theres less duals (without herdman), likely no WCQ, no hosting the WC, no CPL, national team games not being broadcasted (or having to pay to broadcast). But Hey, everything the CSA touches turns to rot and they are wildly incompetent at EVERYTHING they do. 

Sure sounds like they are doing a great job.