The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Bigandy]

23 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People inside the CSA bubble were so fixated with having a D1 to rival the hated MLS that they were willing to mortgage 20 years worth of national team sponsorship revenues to make it happen. Now the chickens have come home to roost because of course the national team players were going to be upset when the details of what was signed emerged...

 

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Don't mind OTP - he just hates anything related to CPL

OOF.... he does hate the CPL. What a closed mind.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^usual drivel. He actually thinks that a national league should be operated in a manner that is financially sustainable. If something lower budget had launched closer to the Easton report recommendations there would have been no need for the CSB deal to get Bob Young & Co to sign on the dotted line and no discord between the CSA and the national team rosters in the here and now.

[CanadaFan123]

32 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Always important to remember that this forum isn't in any way representative of the people who are involved with grassroots Canadian soccer. You knew what I was talking about with soccer associations not being happy when TFC Academy started to tread on their toes on elite youth player development. Some of these guys are completely oblivious.

Then there were the suburban youth clubs that see youth national championships as the be all and end all and were less than pleased when the star player that could help them do that moved over to the TFC academy teams for some genuinely pro level training. That crowd is now heavily involved with L1O so there's a reason why CanPL doesn't push the academy angle the way it should.

People inside the CSA bubble were so fixated with having a D1 to rival the hated MLS that they were willing to mortgage 20 years worth of national team sponsorship revenues to make it happen. Now the chickens have come home to roost because of course the national team players were going to be upset when the details of what was signed emerged...

Man, you are a special type of delusional. You mean the MLS that was limiting us to 3 clubs and hates Canadian players? No one hates MLS or they would just simply do to them what they did to Ottawa Fury. I still remember your delusion back then by the way - funny stuff. They also charge MLS clubs very little for licensing but that may change soon. 
 

CPL has given us what… 5x the domestic pool in just a few short years (including more players in MLS)? Not to mention increased sponsorship.
 

What should the goal be? Stick with MLS and a small pool so that in case we start bringing in money, which we hadn’t up until CPL, we can enrich our 30 man pool? 
 

You truly have the best interests of Canadian soccer in mind. 

[Ottawafan]

59 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Always important to remember that this forum isn't in any way representative of the people who are involved with grassroots Canadian soccer. You knew what I was talking about with soccer associations not being happy when TFC Academy started to tread on their toes on elite youth player development. Some of these guys are completely oblivious.

Then there were the suburban youth clubs that see youth national championships as the be all and end all and were less than pleased when the star player that could help them do that moved over to the TFC academy teams for some genuinely pro level training. That crowd is now heavily involved with L1O so there's a reason why CanPL doesn't push the academy angle the way it should.

People inside the CSA bubble were so fixated with having a D1 to rival the hated MLS that they were willing to mortgage 20 years worth of national team sponsorship revenues to make it happen. Now the chickens have come home to roost because of course the national team players were going to be upset when the details of what was signed emerged...

I am beginning to see how many posters here are simply fans of the national team and not the game in Canada.  They don’t have an understanding of the various levels below the CSA nor do they understand the personalities involved at clubs and the associations. Sad they’ve chosen to align with bureaucrats than the actual players. There are way more Bontis types involved in the game than not. Terrible our fans don’t know this or choose to support them. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Ottawafan]

8 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^usual drivel. He actually thinks that a national league should be operated in a manner that is financially sustainable. If something lower budget had launched closer to the Easton report recommendations there would have been no need for the CSB deal to get Bob Young & Co to sign on the dotted line and no discord between the CSA and the national team rosters in the here and now.

I am pro CPL but there is a reason why the Ottawa Fury owners wanted nothing to do with certain elements in the league. The way that went down from a CSA perspective was absolutely wrong and disgusting.

[Bison44]

Bus league, semi-pro in GTA, dont think too big unless its under the US umbrella.    Its been his mantra for as long as I have been here.  Even though that describes L10.  As far as I can see the discord between CSB and players is because some one has been filling their heads with baloney about the millions and millions of dollars that are being sucked out of the program for CPL.  Except when you get into the details and see the anon insider experts were full of shit and the actual number is 8.2 at a highpoint, naturally much lower (prob working its way up from 1-2mil in year one of the deal).  And of course part of that money is earned by the CPL...Carslbergs money isnt 100% earned by national teams for example, part of that is to pay for the shirt sponsor ship, but bird shit wont ever admit that. 

[Aird25]

6 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

What should the goal be?

Do you really need to ask? Ozzie will say the Easton Report like he has thousands of times over the years.

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I am pro player/team too!!!! However, when i say pro player, i want whats best for the squad. Sometimes that means cutting budgets in one area for another. 

What that means to me is to make accurate assessments based on the numbers and not create or increase a divide between organization and players for no reason. Isn't it in the best interest of the players to have a harmonious relationship with CSA, or at least to not put any more fuel on the fire on topics that don't need it?

100% being on the same page with the CSA is ideal. That’s a two way street though. I’d argue it’s the CSA that has created situations that backed players into a corner leaving them no choice but to push back harder. CSA needs to understand they should be working in partnership with their players, not looking at them as just the workers. 

[Ottawafan]

7 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

  As far as I can see the discord between CSB and players is because some one has been filling their heads with baloney about the millions and millions of dollars that are being sucked out of the program for CPL.  

That’s possible. Or maybe the players have a much better understanding of the deal than we do. Hence their position. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

30 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

... CPL has given us what… 5x the domestic pool in just a few short years (including more players in MLS)? ...

That growth in the player pool could have also happened through the USL/NASL if the CSA hadn't imposed a moratorium on further expansion into USSF sanctioned leagues in 2010. It wasn't just OSEG and the Fath brothers who were interested in pursuing that. CanPL wasn't the only possible pathway to expanding pro soccer opportunities in Canada and many of the possible investors had very little interest in pursuing the relatively high budget domestic pro league that people inside the CSA bubble craved. Hence why the CSB deal had to be signed to sweeten the deal and get the CSA into the mess it is currently in with the national team rosters.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[red card]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

 

According to Joshua, the February 2019 item was voted on by the CSA

 

So, Ryan Fequet was quoted in Westhead article last year that "The board absolutely did not approve this (CSB) contract.” His recounting of the timeline also looks to be off as he said Board discussed deal September 2018 and didn't believe Bontis in December 2018 that Board had already approved deal. 

But here it is showing Fequet seconded the motion in November 2018 to provide updates on non-substantive issues following the draft agreement approved March 2018.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by red card

[Bison44]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

That’s possible. Or maybe the players have a much better understanding of the deal than we do. Hence their position. 

How so??  Those are the numbers.....the anon sources were telling us it was more like 10-15mil and CSB was siphoning money from the womens program.  It wasnt true, it was the usual BS and Sharman/Forrest was saying that last summer, he knew the numbers were exaggerated.  I dont personally know any of this, but I do listen and read what comes out and try to pay attention to the people that do know and are actually invested and interested in the game in canada.   

[CanadaFan123]

30 minutes ago, red card said:

So, Ryan Fequet was quoted in Westhead article last year that "The board absolutely did not approve this (CSB) contract.” His recounting of the timeline also looks to be off as he said Board discussed deal September 2018 and didn't believe Bontis in December 2018 that Board had already approved deal. 

But here it is showing Fequet seconded the motion in November 2018 to provide updates on non-substantive issues following the draft agreement approved March 2018.

 

Wow. That’s embarrassing as hell for Mr. Fequet.

[Bigandy]

58 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

100% being on the same page with the CSA is ideal. That’s a two way street though. I’d argue it’s the CSA that has created situations that backed players into a corner leaving them no choice but to push back harder. CSA needs to understand they should be working in partnership with their players, not looking at them as just the workers. 

How have the CSA done that? 

The men wanted more prize money- they got it.
The women want equal pay - they got it, they also got part of the mens prize money. 

Both CMNT and CWNT are upset at the CSB deal, but can you point out why its such a bad, horrible, terrible deal that the CMNT and CWNT are backing into a corner? Is it a perfect deal - no. But if youre saying that signing a deal with pros and cons is whats putting the players into a corner, then we need to seriously reconsider what the threshold is for being put in a corner. 

I would love for you to include the numbers (revenues, costs etc.) that make you think the players are being put in a corner. (I know you dont like the length of time and the unilateral extension of the CSB deal, However, can you explain with numbers why that is a bad deal..... Obviously if the CSB gave 50 million a year, we would want to lock them in for 50 years. So why is this particular deal, so horrible that the players are backed in a corner?)

[Ottawafan]

4 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

How so??  Those are the numbers.....the anon sources were telling us it was more like 10-15mil and CSB was siphoning money from the womens program.  It wasnt true, it was the usual BS and Sharman/Forrest was saying that last summer, he knew the numbers were exaggerated.  I dont personally know any of this, but I do listen and read what comes out and try to pay attention to the people that do know and are actually invested and interested in the game in canada.   

The players are concerned about the overall agreement with CSB and the lack of transparency overall.  They just don't trust the CSA.

[Ottawafan]

20 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

How have the CSA done that? 

The men wanted more prize money- they got it.
The women want equal pay - they got it, they also got part of the mens prize money. 

Both CMNT and CWNT are upset at the CSB deal, but can you point out why its such a bad, horrible, terrible deal that the CMNT and CWNT are backing into a corner? Is it a perfect deal - no. But if youre saying that signing a deal with pros and cons is whats putting the players into a corner, then we need to seriously reconsider what the threshold is for being put in a corner. 

I would love for you to include the numbers (revenues, costs etc.) that make you think the players are being put in a corner. (I know you dont like the length of time and the unilateral extension of the CSB deal, However, can you explain with numbers why that is a bad deal..... Obviously if the CSB gave 50 million a year, we would want to lock them in for 50 years. So why is this particular deal, so horrible that the players are backed in a corner?)

The players wanted the CSA to come to the table and negotiate.  Eventually they did.  But it wasn't until the players had to go on strike to get the attention of the CSA.

Players have or had more than one issue that concerned them.  Not just the deal between CSB and the CSA.  To paint that as their sole issue isn't accurate.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Ottawafan said:

The players wanted the CSA to come to the table and negotiate.  Eventually they did.  But it wasn't until the players had to go on strike to get the attention of the CSA.

That is 100% false!

The CSA had been negotiating for over a year with the CWNT. When the CWNT went on strike, it was about the new budget, NOT because of the collective bargaining agreement. The CSA were at the table far before the CWNT went on strike. 

[Aird25]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

The players wanted the CSA to come to the table and negotiate.  Eventually they did.  But it wasn't until the players had to go on strike to get the attention of the CSA.

Didn't the men go on strike before they even had legal council?

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

He actually thinks that a national league should be operated in a manner that is financially sustainable.

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If something lower budget had launched closer to the Easton report recommendations there would have been no need for the CSB deal to get Bob Young & Co to sign on the dotted line and no discord between the CSA and the national team rosters in the here and now.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That growth in the player pool could have also happened through the USL/NASL if the CSA hadn't imposed a moratorium on further expansion into USSF sanctioned leagues in 2010.

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

CanPL wasn't the only possible pathway to expanding pro soccer opportunities in Canada and many of the possible investors had very little interest in pursuing the relatively high budget domestic pro league that people inside the CSA bubble craved hence why the CSB deal had to be signed to sweeten the deal and get the CSA into the mess it is currently in with the national team rosters.

I don't understand your math.

No CSB meant that the CSA would have probably kept starting with $1M in the hole paying to be broadcast. Before CSB, they were raising at least three time less in sponsorship than they are doing now and were never paid a predictable flat fee for those rights. Add to that their inability to get sponsorship themselves with the Nike deal that will get them ZERO

Oh and CSB is willing to renegotiate.

[Ottawafan]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

That is 100% false!

The CSA had been negotiating for over a year with the CWNT. When the CWNT went on strike, it was about the new budget, NOT because of the collective bargaining agreement. The CSA were at the table far before the CWNT went on strike. 

The men, against Panama.

[Bison44]

18 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

The players are concerned about the overall agreement with CSB and the lack of transparency overall.  They just don't trust the CSA.

Ok you dont trust the CSA.   Do you trust the articles slamming CSB but also feeding you the wrong info? Do you like having Onesoccer around and all the coverage its been doing on MLS, CPL, national teams??  Do you like having pro teams opening up in new markets and having the L1O model spread to BC, AB and the maritimes??  DO you like getting a few WC games in 26?  A lot of good things have happened to CDN soccer in the last 5-6 years.  I know we all complain but overall things are much better now for the current national team players and hopefully for the kids coming up in youth soccer.   

Oh and sorry for singling you out, I mean the guys super pissed at CSA/CSB deal in general.  

Edited March 22, 2023 by Bison44

[Ottawafan]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

Ok you dont trust the CSA.   Do you trust the articles slamming CSB but also feeding you the wrong info? Do you like having Onesoccer around and all the coverage its been doing on MLS, CPL, national teams??  Do you like having pro teams opening up in new markets and having the L1O model spread to BC, AB and the maritimes??  DO you like getting a few WC games in 26?  A lot of good things have happened to CDN soccer in the last 5-6 years.  I know we all complain but overall things are much better now for the current national team players and hopefully for the kids coming up in youth soccer.   

The players don't trust the CSA.  

I have never said CSB are the bad guys and I support the CPL.  I spent 40 years in the game; I WANT the game to grow.  I love having the games on tv.  I enjoyed going to the qualifying games and I loved my experience going to the 3 Canada games in Qatar ( plus many more ).   The game is in a much better place now than it was just 5 years ago.    

[Bigandy]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

The men, against Panama.

This is 100% false again.  The CWNT released a statement when the men went on strike. They stated that the had been negotiating for 6 months PRIOR to the mens strike and that "the most recent proposal is in the right direction". 

Why are you ignoring the facts and making things up to divide the CSA and the players? We are both fans, lets support them with positivity. 


 

 

 

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

This is 100% false again.  The CWNT released a statement when the men went on strike. They stated that the had been negotiating for 6 months PRIOR to the mens strike and that "the most recent proposal is in the right direction". 

Why are you ignoring the facts and making things up to divide the CSA and the players? We are both fans, lets support them with positivity. 


 

 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/soccer/news/why-canada-soccer-game-vs-panama-cancelled-explaining-contract-dispute/zq0t1rdql3jfhjlwjgn4as2f

The men characterized the relationship with Canada Soccer as "strained for years". They claimed that the organization "disrespected our team and jeopardized our efforts to raise the standards and effectively advance the game in Canada" by delaying contract discussions and waiting "until the evening of June 2nd to present an archaic offer" after contract discussions had begun back in March.

And this is why they went on strike.  So no, not false.  

[Kent]

Just a reminder, that if you believe the CSB deal is horrible and the 20 year term is way too long, if the deal stays in place for the duration, that will mean we have had 20 years of CPL soccer. The CSL only lasted 6 seasons.

Also, if the deal is hugely profitable for the CSB, it should be easy to sign on expansion teams and grow the league further.

Even if you think the deal is bad, you have to admit some amount of good can come out of it.