Jonathan David

[InglewoodJack]

Rough feedback about David. Especially in a game where Watkins scores- I think there's a world where JD could be his replacement.

I guess going back to Lille only one goal down is not the worst scenario. If he scores to even it up next game, all might be forgotten.

[frmr]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Not able to make things happen on his own. 

 

 

Actually clawed one back

I agree, Lille have been poor in general in attack.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just now, frmr said:

I agree, Lille have been poor in general in attack.

In the first half they had 3-4 chances, and a VAR called back a goal by a hair. So they have been poor, but they stats are what they are.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Well 

 

Going home in better shape than Liverpool going away.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Frankly, a boring match, and not that impressed by the home side either. 

David, very discreet.

[frmr]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

Frankly, a boring match, and not that impressed by the home side either. 

David, very discreet.

I think discreet is putting it kindly. Like the TNT lady said, she didn't even know what he was capable of and anyone watching him for the first time wouldn't be either. It's so frustrating sometimes watching him because we all know what he's capable of, and then when the big stage comes, it's like it's a whole other David. Maybe that's extreme but I was very hopeful for him tonight, but that he made a poor account of himself tonight. His teammates didn't help him, but he didn't help himself either.

[Obinna]

21 minutes ago, frmr said:

Well this is about as bleak as it gets from a David perspective. This is what I was saying that when the most eyes are on David, he's invisible. It's why there's so many people who don't rate him. And I don't blame them tbh, if this is all I've seen from him I wouldn't think he's anywhere near Prem level either. I thought this game would be one where he would show that he's taken a step but he certainly isn't winning any new fans tonight.

(hopeful reverse-jinx post)

Never watched but came here to post the same thing. This doesn't help his reputation for disappearing in the big games. He's scored goals against the likes of PSG, Marseille, etc., but he doesn't have this reputation for no good reason. 

Again, didn't watch but it's the kind of thing that scares me about an EPL move. A smaller, smarter step up the ladder may be best for his career. Maybe Serie A, or maybe La Liga. 

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Never watched but came here to post the same thing. This doesn't help his reputation for disappearing in the big games. He's scored goals against the likes of PSG, Marseille, etc., but he doesn't have this reputation for no good reason. 

Again, didn't watch but it's the kind of thing that scares me about an EPL move. A smaller, smarter step up the ladder may be best for his career. Maybe Serie A, or maybe La Liga. 

He wants to go and play for a team that can play champions league, and those teams, regardless of league will come up against this level of team. This was Aston Villa, who are still having an excellent season, but he's looking at clubs that need their striker to score against Chelsea, Bayern, Atletico, so on, so unless he decides that his ceiling is a mid table club in any league, he needs to show up.

I think all will be forgotten if he makes something happen at home against Lille. If Lille get bounced without much of a fight though, I think it'll be a bad sign for his future landing spot.

[Obinna]

Another thought...maybe this is down to the way David plays? For example, one of his best attributes is sharp interplay, but if your teammates aren't up for it you can't interplay with yourself. When you are a player who doesn't necessarily generate for yourself, it is pretty easy to go invisible, no?

Davies and Buchanan by contrast are going to be noticed for good or bad. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

He wants to go and play for a team that can play champions league, and those teams, regardless of league will come up against this level of team. This was Aston Villa, who are still having an excellent season, but he's looking at clubs that need their striker to score against Chelsea, Bayern, Atletico, so on, so unless he decides that his ceiling is a mid table club in any league, he needs to show up.

I think all will be forgotten if he makes something happen at home against Lille. If Lille get bounced without much of a fight though, I think it'll be a bad sign for his future landing spot.

Fair enough and I didn't watch, but did David blow a bunch of chances? Whenever he fails to impress in big games, it's not because he is missing sitters, it's just that he's not involved. See my last post.

[InglewoodJack]

21 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Fair enough and I didn't watch, but did David blow a bunch of chances? Whenever he fails to impress in big games, it's not because he is missing sitters, it's just that he's not involved. See my last post.

I only tuned in during extra time- he looked lively, but unsure if he was like that all game. Though as we’ve seen with Canada at the World Cup, for one reason or another, when the lights are on, he often doesn’t make his presence seen.

[frmr]

He wasn't missing chances. He had one chance in on goal but took it too wide and the keeper saved it. But his runs were off time, he was in offside positions, he fumbled balls, passed it out of play, tripped himself up. Just overall out of sync and some clumsy passages of play. It wasn't all bad though, he had a few decent moments. To be fair his teammates weren't in sync when he did make some good runs either so it wasn't all his fault, but he certainly did not look like a star player in Ligue 1.

[Kadenge]

His touches were not sharp today, but some have unreasonable expectations. Who cares if someone is watching him for the first time? Is David trying to impress Villa  fans? His abilities and  limitations are well known by any club or scouts that are interested. He had one half decent chance and no he didn't take the ball wide, the pass was towards the right side of the box. David is not a striker that creates something from nothing. He needs support and quick interplay with the mids to get into scoring position. Yes he would be playing higher level teams in CL, and he has done so in the past btw, but presumably he would also be surrounded with better players on a better team who can support the attack. Perhaps some want one of our players in the EPL, but if David ends up in Serie A or La Liga on the right type of team for his skillet it would be best for him.

[frmr]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

His touches were not sharp today, but some have unreasonable expectations. Who cares if someone is watching him for the first time? Is David trying to impress Villa  fans? His abilities and  limitations are well known by any club or scouts that are interested. He had one half decent chance and no he didn't take the ball wide, the pass was towards the right side of the box. David is not a striker that creates something from nothing. He needs support and quick interplay with the mids to get into scoring position. Yes he would be playing higher level teams in CL, and he has done so in the past btw, but presumably he would also be surrounded with better players on a better team who can support the attack. Perhaps some want one of our players in the EPL, but if David ends up in Serie A or La Liga on the right type of team for his skillet it would be best for him.

Scouts go to games to physically watch players, it's not all just based on watching video clips. I guarantee you there were English scouts there watching David who would have not liked what they saw. Also, I don't see anyone with unreasonable expectations in this thread. We all know how good he is and we all know his current form. This game did not reflect either of those. He was poor.

[Kadenge]

7 minutes ago, frmr said:

 .....I guarantee you there were English scouts there watching David who would have not liked what they saw..... 

It's not the end of his career if he doesn't move to the EPL. His skillset may not be suited for the league anyways regardless of how many goals he scores in Ligue1. I said earlier, his touches were not great, but he only had 1/2 chance to score in the game.

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

It's not the end of his career if he doesn't move to the EPL. His skillset may not be suited for the league anyways regardless of how many goals he scores in Ligue1. I said earlier, his touches were not great, but he only had 1/2 chance to score in the game.

Agreed. He can become a storied player as far as Canadian, CONCACAF, and European football go, without ever playing in England. Many icons of this game have never played in England. I think the focus on England is down to the fact he says he wants to play in England. I would be more than happy for him to move onto Serie A, and then maybe have a taste in Spain. That would be a very solid career arch. 

[sebdeserio]

Despite what some (many) arrogant Prem fans think, England isn't the pinnacle of football and there is a world outside the prem. He didn't have a good game but it's only the first leg. Prem fans who may have watched him for the first time might form ignorant opinions about him but that's par for the course with players who haven't PrOvEn ThEmSeLvEs in England.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

First, professional scouts should not be in their job if they judge a player on one game.

Second,  Premier League football is a lot of different things, David  is not suited to a bunch of those things but is suited to a bunch of others. 

Third, even reasonable supporters of Premier League teams hold a healthy scepticism about strikers who score bags of goals  elsewhere because there are a lot of those that have come and failed.  And there are many unreasonable supporters of Premier League teams, like football supporters in general.

 

Here's hoping David goes to a smart team, who know how to use him because he will score goals anywhere.  But he is a player that needs the right situation.

 

[Craig11rm]

David scores his goals by working hard and being at the right place at the right time while staying composed in front of net. Some people call them “tap-in merchants” but it’s the most important skill as a striker. My question is who are the creators on Lille??? I didn’t watch the game but how many minutes did Angel Gomez play? IMO he’s been the best creator for David all season. This is a 11v11 sport after all. 

[InglewoodJack]

12 hours ago, Kadenge said:

His touches were not sharp today, but some have unreasonable expectations. Who cares if someone is watching him for the first time? Is David trying to impress Villa  fans? His abilities and  limitations are well known by any club or scouts that are interested. He had one half decent chance and no he didn't take the ball wide, the pass was towards the right side of the box. David is not a striker that creates something from nothing. He needs support and quick interplay with the mids to get into scoring position. Yes he would be playing higher level teams in CL, and he has done so in the past btw, but presumably he would also be surrounded with better players on a better team who can support the attack. Perhaps some want one of our players in the EPL, but if David ends up in Serie A or La Liga on the right type of team for his skillet it would be best for him.

Scouts want to see a guy who can score against top top teams and if he doesn't make his presence felt against Aston Villa, who are the premier league teams that want a striker of that quality? That's not to say that one game has completely erased his body of work for Lille, and again, there's still another game, there are still teams that want him and all of that, but teams play for players that perform at the highest level, we believe David is a striker of the highest quality, and those strikers score goals against top teams. It's not about him necessarily playing in the premier league, but the reality is that the only teams who pay 60, or 40M, or whatever his current value is, are teams who expect those players to lead them deep into European competitions. The teams in Serie A or La Liga or the Bundesliga who want him want him because they want to assemble a team who can knock these premier league (or any other top team) out of Champions League. His ability to score league goals against Torino or Deportes Alaves isn't why teams want him.

As for unreasonable expectations, similarly to the discussion in the Davies thread, we expect Davies to be the best LB in the world, and we expect David to be one of the best young strikers on the planet. I don't know what's the tier between Lille and premier league, and if David ends up at that tier, it won't be the end of the world, but he's a guy we hope to play for the biggest clubs in the world and score big goals in big games. If he can't do that it's disappointing. If Alistair Johnston looks a bit out of place when Celtic plays champions league games, we understand it, because we have different expectations for him and if his peak is a top RB in Scotland and not much else, that's good for us. If David's peak is scoring a ton of goals in France, I'd be disappointed, because I think he can do a lot more. I hope he proves it.

4 hours ago, Craig11rm said:

David scores his goals by working hard and being at the right place at the right time while staying composed in front of net. Some people call them “tap-in merchants” but it’s the most important skill as a striker. My question is who are the creators on Lille??? I didn’t watch the game but how many minutes did Angel Gomez play? IMO he’s been the best creator for David all season. This is a 11v11 sport after all. 

I don't even think he's a tap in merchant and IMO he's actually expanded his repertoire of goals this year. IIRC every goal outside of the 6 yard box that he's scored in his professional career have come this season. He's not a player who will beat 3 guys and dribble through traffic to score these highlight reel goals, but he has a strong boot and has shown he can score from different angles and positions. Just want to see that against the type of teams we hope he plays against next season. Some of his disappearing act does come down to the team he's playing for- both Lille and Canada and needing players who can carve defenses and get him good service- something he'll see more of at his next club, but it's not like other top young strikers haven't put up good numbers against better teams. Lille isn't world class, but he does play with good players.

Again, a lot will change if he gets one back at the home leg next match. He had some group stage stinkers against I think Bratislava and maybe that team from the Faroe Islands then went on an insane run right after. A goal to even the matchup and then converting his PK in the shootout to put Lille through, and no one even remembers this game happened.

[frmr]

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Scouts want to see a guy who can score against top top teams and if he doesn't make his presence felt against Aston Villa, who are the premier league teams that want a striker of that quality? That's not to say that one game has completely erased his body of work for Lille, and again, there's still another game, there are still teams that want him and all of that, but teams play for players that perform at the highest level, we believe David is a striker of the highest quality, and those strikers score goals against top teams. It's not about him necessarily playing in the premier league, but the reality is that the only teams who pay 60, or 40M, or whatever his current value is, are teams who expect those players to lead them deep into European competitions. The teams in Serie A or La Liga or the Bundesliga who want him want him because they want to assemble a team who can knock these premier league (or any other top team) out of Champions League. His ability to score league goals against Torino or Deportes Alaves isn't why teams want him.

As for unreasonable expectations, similarly to the discussion in the Davies thread, we expect Davies to be the best LB in the world, and we expect David to be one of the best young strikers on the planet. I don't know what's the tier between Lille and premier league, and if David ends up at that tier, it won't be the end of the world, but he's a guy we hope to play for the biggest clubs in the world and score big goals in big games. If he can't do that it's disappointing. If Alistair Johnston looks a bit out of place when Celtic plays champions league games, we understand it, because we have different expectations for him and if his peak is a top RB in Scotland and not much else, that's good for us. If David's peak is scoring a ton of goals in France, I'd be disappointed, because I think he can do a lot more. I hope he proves it.

I don't even think he's a tap in merchant and IMO he's actually expanded his repertoire of goals this year. IIRC every goal outside of the 6 yard box that he's scored in his professional career have come this season. He's not a player who will beat 3 guys and dribble through traffic to score these highlight reel goals, but he has a strong boot and has shown he can score from different angles and positions. Just want to see that against the type of teams we hope he plays against next season. Some of his disappearing act does come down to the team he's playing for- both Lille and Canada and needing players who can carve defenses and get him good service- something he'll see more of at his next club, but it's not like other top young strikers haven't put up good numbers against better teams. Lille isn't world class, but he does play with good players.

Again, a lot will change if he gets one back at the home leg next match. He had some group stage stinkers against I think Bratislava and maybe that team from the Faroe Islands then went on an insane run right after. A goal to even the matchup and then converting his PK in the shootout to put Lille through, and no one even remembers this game happened.

Yeah I agree with a lot of this. People are saying scouts will watch more than one game, who cares if people seeing him the first time don't think he's good, it doesn't matter if he moves to England, etc. I don't disagree with those statements, but it has to do with the occasion. Everybody knows this is one of Lille's biggest games of the season. It's their first European quarter final ever against the other team that is the favourite in the tournament. It's not just "one game", it's the game that would have been circled on the calendar (along with the second leg) and a game where the players, fans and scouts will be thinking, okay this is it, let's see what these teams and players have got. So yes, on one hand, it's just one game and who cares, but on the other hand, this is the big pressure cooker game where players need to rise to the occasion and where scouts will be seeing if a player has that ability to be that big game player. And yes, English scouts would have been seeing how David looks against Premier League opposition. It was the same at the World Cup, lots of noise around him, lots of clubs probably wanting to see how he performed on the big stage, and he didn't deliver, and he didn't get his move. If he would have scored a couple goals at the World Cup, he could already playing at a higher club level. Look at Tajon, Inter were reported to have decided to move for him based on his World Cup performance. So yes, it's only "one game", but one big performance in one big game on a big stage can easily move the needle on whether a club decides to buy a player or not.

Honestly, I don't see him moving to England at this point, not just from this Villa performance, but just in general. From my own selfish perspective I wish he would, purely because I watch that league the most and there is so much english content on it, it would be amazing to be able to tune in to all of that, but I'm not sure he would thrive in that league and I think most scouts would see the same. I could certainly be wrong but I think he moves to Serie A, which is totally fine too. I just hope that he can put in a big performance in Lille next week, because at this point in his career, the last thing he needs to be doing is scaring off teams who tune in to see him lay eggs in big matches.

[InglewoodJack]

27 minutes ago, frmr said:

Yeah I agree with a lot of this. People are saying scouts will watch more than one game, who cares if people seeing him the first time don't think he's good, it doesn't matter if he moves to England, etc. I don't disagree with those statements, but it has to do with the occasion. Everybody knows this is one of Lille's biggest games of the season. It's their first European quarter final ever against the other team that is the favourite in the tournament. It's not just "one game", it's the game that would have been circled on the calendar (along with the second leg) and a game where the players, fans and scouts will be thinking, okay this is it, let's see what these teams and players have got. So yes, on one hand, it's just one game and who cares, but on the other hand, this is the big pressure cooker game where players need to rise to the occasion and where scouts will be seeing if a player has that ability to be that big game player. And yes, English scouts would have been seeing how David looks against Premier League opposition. It was the same at the World Cup, lots of noise around him, lots of clubs probably wanting to see how he performed on the big stage, and he didn't deliver, and he didn't get his move. If he would have scored a couple goals at the World Cup, he could already playing at a higher club level. Look at Tajon, Inter were reported to have decided to move for him based on his World Cup performance. So yes, it's only "one game", but one big performance in one big game on a big stage can easily move the needle on whether a club decides to buy a player or not.

Honestly, I don't see him moving to England at this point, not just from this Villa performance, but just in general. From my own selfish perspective I wish he would, purely because I watch that league the most and there is so much english content on it, it would be amazing to be able to tune in to all of that, but I'm not sure he would thrive in that league and I think most scouts would see the same. I could certainly be wrong but I think he moves to Serie A, which is totally fine too. I just hope that he can put in a big performance in Lille next week, because at this point in his career, the last thing he needs to be doing is scaring off teams who tune in to see him lay eggs in big matches.

Things just move so fast in those top leagues now too. A player gets bought, he has a tough season he starts the next season on thin ice, and by the winter window, he's out on loan, the following year he's in Turkey, and back in his domestic league or the middle east 2 seasons later. Fans will overrate a single game performance more than scouts will, but if David can't get it done against Villa, about a dozen 21 year old strikers will, and when those guy slip, a player 3 years younger than them will take their place and so on. Still think he has a place on a top team, and I think he can turn it around next leg, but I think we need to be realistic about what a player with JD's expectations actually needs to do to get to where we want him to be.

[masster]

Napoli lining up David as the Victor Osimhen replacement.

https://football-italia.net/david-open-napoli-transfer-meeting/

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, masster said:

Napoli lining up David as the Victor Osimhen replacement.

https://football-italia.net/david-open-napoli-transfer-meeting/

Napoli want 35M with add-ons, but Lille want 50M? Lille shouldn't push their luck here...

[kacbru]

But I can also see Lille's perspective - worst case scenario they are in Europa League next year.  They will have to replace David.  That won't come cheap.  If Osimhen was bought for $70M four years ago, and can be priced at $130M, surely David is worth more than $32M?  There is a point at which it is in Lille's interest to walk away from a sale and risk that he goes on a free in order to get another season with him.  That point is likely well below $32M, but the point exists.