CPL General

[Cicero]

6 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I think the approach taken by the league is shaped by the geography of the country. No matter how many times you say it, a bus league will only cover a small portion of the country 

Clearly, a truly national league can't be a bus league, but it could be a clustered league with a few outliers. I suspect they were happy to see Edmonton go in the short-term. Valour have stable ownership, and Halifax probably pays the bills for itself, so they won't go anywhere, but it makes a lot more sense cost-wise to cluster teams from Calgary to the west coast, and in Ontario and Quebec. Most games would then not require flights. So I doubt we'll see teams in places like Saskatoon or Moncton anytime soon. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Clearly, a truly national league can't be a bus league, but it could be a clustered league with a few outliers. I suspect they were happy to see Edmonton go in the short-term. Valour have stable ownership, and Halifax probably pays the bills for itself, so they won't go anywhere, but it makes a lot more sense cost-wise to cluster teams from Calgary to the west coast, and in Ontario and Quebec. Most games would then not require flights. So I doubt we'll see teams in places like Saskatoon or Moncton anytime soon. 

You have serious geography issues, dude.

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Clearly, a truly national league can't be a bus league, but it could be a clustered league with a few outliers. I suspect they were happy to see Edmonton go in the short-term. Valour have stable ownership, and Halifax probably pays the bills for itself, so they won't go anywhere, but it makes a lot more sense cost-wise to cluster teams from Calgary to the west coast, and in Ontario and Quebec. Most games would then not require flights. So I doubt we'll see teams in places like Saskatoon or Moncton anytime soon. 

I'd go the opposite way and suggest that league with only 1 team between the GTA and the Pacific Ocean could not legitimately claim to be a national league.

[Cicero]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You have serious geography issues, dude.

No, I don't. That scenario would represent more than two-thirds of the country's population if they added Kelowna, K-W, Windsor, Laval, Quebec City, or some mix thereof, and a significant number of games could be played without flying or staying in hotels. At this stage of the league, this is definitely a consideration. Why else do they only play a 28 game schedule? Partially weather, but also because each extra game costs certain team's owners more money, rather than adding to the bottom line. I'm not saying I prefer to exclude Saskatoon etc., but to make it work in the short term, I'm sure they're trying to contain costs.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Cicero

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

No, I don't. That scenario would represent more than two-thirds of the country's population if they added Kelowna, K-W, Windsor, Laval, Quebec City, or some mix thereof, and a significant number of games could be played without flying or staying in hotels. At this stage of the league, this is definitely a consideration. Why else do they only play a 28 game schedule? Partially weather, but also because each extra game costs certain team's owners more money, rather than adding to the bottom line. I'm not saying I prefer to exclude Saskatoon etc., but to make it work in the short term, I'm sure they're trying to contain costs.

Anyone who eliminates Edmonton from a Calgary cluster and sticks Calgary with teams beyond the great divide has serious geography issues, dude.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Cicero said:

No, I don't. That scenario would represent more than two-thirds of the country's population if they added Kelowna, K-W, Windsor, Laval, Quebec City, or some mix thereof, and a significant number of games could be played without flying or staying in hotels. At this stage of the league, this is definitely a consideration. Why else do they only play a 28 game schedule? Partially weather, but also because each extra game costs certain team's owners more money, rather than adding to the bottom line. I'm not saying I prefer to exclude Saskatoon etc., but to make it work in the short term, I'm sure they're trying to contain costs.

A reminder for some people of what the Western Hockey League covers with bus travel:

It's basically investor ego and soccer association politics that have shaped the economic model of CanPL away from something that would have had a better shot at being sustainable long term. The bigger budget approach is great if it works but is also a recipe for an ongoing cycle of enjoying an all too brief boom followed by a significantly longer bust if it doesn't and the powers that be keep trying to make the same approach fly (pun intended) over and over again. Ignoring the five American franchises around half of the Canadian ones are in cities that have been very much part of the conversation on CanPL, if Brandon gets replaced by Winnipeg.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[K Edgar]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

A reminder for some people of what the Western Hockey League covers with bus travel:

It's basically investor ego and soccer association politics that have shaped the economic model of CanPL away from something that would have had a better shot at being sustainable long term. The bigger budget approach is great if it works but is also a recipe for an ongoing cycle of enjoying an all too brief boom followed by a significantly longer bust if it doesn't and the powers that be keep trying to make the same approach fly (pun intended) over and over again. Ignoring the five American franchises around half of the Canadian ones are in cities that have been very much part of the conversation on CanPL, if Brandon gets replaced by Winnipeg.

A little out of date -- there is a team in Winnipeg and still one in Brandon.

[narduch]

22 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree. Even at revived Empire you had those metallic stands, and there was lots of foot stamping and rattling, which seems a bit high-school to me.

But the advantage was being close to the pitch, good sightlines everywhere, a wrap-around bowl. As you say, once you are in, you are watching a game and if the play is sharp and the fans are lively, you can't ask for more at the CPL level.

I'm working on a renovation of Richardson Stadium in Kingston (new change rooms).

It would be a perfect stadium for CPL. It's improved A LOT since Canada played Belize there in 2004.

Of course you need an ownership group and a new turf that can have lines removed.

 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

A reminder for some people of what the Western Hockey League covers with bus travel:

It's basically investor ego and soccer association politics that have shaped the economic model of CanPL away from something that would have had a better shot at being sustainable long term. The bigger budget approach is great if it works but is also a recipe for an ongoing cycle of enjoying an all too brief boom followed by a significantly longer bust if it doesn't and the powers that be keep trying to make the same approach fly (pun intended) over and over again. Ignoring the five American franchises around half of the Canadian ones are in cities that have been very much part of the conversation on CanPL, if Brandon gets replaced by Winnipeg.

That’s wild. When I drove to Saskatoon to drop off grandparents ashes and back, it was basically a week long trip from Victoria. They must have epic road trips. Isn’t this quite similar to the League 1 model we’re building for soccer?

It also looks like an awful lot of teams have folded and relocated over the years, despite hockey reigning king in most cities. Are we sure this would be more stable long term for soccer?

[Watchmen]

The WHL has two conferences, and play between them is limited. You play teams home or away but not both.

As well, there was a Prince George vs Portland playoff series about a decade ago where they were lobbying the league to let them fly, because the bus travel was ridiculous.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Watchmen

[Kingston]

47 minutes ago, narduch said:

I'm working on a renovation of Richardson Stadium in Kingston (new change rooms).

It would be a perfect stadium for CPL. It's improved A LOT since Canada played Belize there in 2004.

Of course you need an ownership group and a new turf that can have lines removed.

 

And a larger city to put it in.

But you are right - it would be a very CPL friendly venue.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, K Edgar said:

A little out of date -- there is a team in Winnipeg and still one in Brandon.

Yes, Cranbrook moved to Winnipeg.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

33 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The WHL has two conferences, and play between them is limited. You play teams home or away but not both....

Doesn't need to be an exact copy of what they do in the WHL but with a lower budget and more relaxed stadium requirements, you could do something like:

BC: Victoria, Whitecaps affiliate, TSS Rovers, Fraser Valley, Okanagan

Prairies: Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg

play same conference teams x4 and other conference teams x2 = 26 games overall followed by western playoffs and a soccer version of the Memorial Cup with OHL and QMJHL equivalents or combined equivalent in the east. Definitely not what you ideally want but better than watching a higher budget league circle the drain to oblivion, which I have a sinking feeling is what we are doing right now.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Doesn't need to be an exact copy of what they do in the WHL but with a lower budget and more relaxed stadium requirements, you could do something like:

BC: Victoria, Whitecaps affiliate, TSS Rovers, Fraser Valley, Okanagan

Prairies: Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg

play same conference teams x4 and other conference teams x2 = 26 games overall followed by western playoffs and a soccer version of the Memorial Cup with OHL and QMJHL equivalents or combined equivalent in the east. Definitely not what you ideally want but better than watching a higher budget league circle the drain to oblivion, which I have a sinking feeling is what we are doing right now.

What do you estimate a typical annual budget to be for a team in this league?  What level of attendance are you anticipating will be necessary to sustain it?

[narduch]

36 minutes ago, Kingston said:

And a larger city to put it in.

But you are right - it would be a very CPL friendly venue.

I guess you are right.

Thought it was close in population to Windsor but it's actually about half

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

I'd be looking at a shorter season May to August and a souped up version of what PDL used to provide relying on a mix of U-23 student athletes and a limited number of older experienced players but with a higher media profile and better branding than PDL ever had in a Canadian context. PDL at times was able to draw into low four figures in cities like Victoria, Calgary (not the Foothills, the time before that) and London so goal would be to emulate and improve on that a bit. On sustainability bear in mind that the Thunder Bay Chill have been around for over 20 years in the PDL format without getting up to those sort of numbers.  

[narduch]

Lol

[SpursFlu]

Viva la Bus League!

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Viva la Bus League!

He's basically saying we should turn the league into Canada PDL

[Kingston]

29 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I'd be looking at a shorter season May to August and a souped up version of what PDL used to provide relying on a mix of U-23 student athletes and a limited number of older experienced players but with a higher media profile and better branding than PDL ever had in a Canadian context. PDL at times was able to draw into low four figures in cities like Victoria, Calgary (not the Foothills, the time before that) and London so goal would be to emulate and improve on that a bit. On sustainability bear in mind that the Thunder Bay Chill have been around for over 20 years in the PDL format without getting up to those sort of numbers.  

If this is the alternative, I support taking a shot at the CPL in its current format.

I'm not convinced people will come out in sufficient numbers to support your PDLish idea.  Even if they do, I'm not convinced it would be at a high enough level to actually benefit Canadian soccer; at least not any more than the L1 leagues do now.  Consider that today only the very best CPL players make it even in MLS and you're proposing something at a lower level than that.

[Kingston]

40 minutes ago, narduch said:

I guess you are right.

Thought it was close in population to Windsor but it's actually about half

We are a pretty soccer friendly city but, yeah, we'd fall well short of the sort of attendance we'd need to support a CPL team.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

25 minutes ago, Kingston said:

If this is the alternative, I support taking a shot at the CPL in its current format...

You think I don't understand that CanPL as configured would have major advantages, if it were to work? I am often not sure if all the people posting here even understand that I am only suggesting that the bus league format was the better way to go because I was and remain of the opinion that the current trajectory will end in tears because the level of spectator interest that is needed won't materialize in enough markets to have a stable league so the various investors will eventually do what the Fath brothers and Baldassarra family have already done.

I was correctly predicting on here what would happen with York 9 on spectator interest before a ball was even kicked. That's not because I wouldn't want 5000+ to be showing up regularly at York Lions Stadium but because I know what the mentality of the GTA's soccer community is. Bear in mind that some of the most vociferous rebuttals of my posts on this subject are coming from a guy who clearly loathes MLS but is still a TFC season ticket holder. That sums it up in a nutshell.

Many of them (including a certain high profile podcaster who droned on about the launch of the league for years) might say all the right things about wanting a Canadian league but when push comes to shove most of them wouldn't even cross the street to regularly watch this level of soccer. That's what happened with the Rockets and Blizzard in the CSL, that's what happened with the Lynx and various attempts at indoor soccer teams, why was it going to be any different with CanPL?

Edited April 27, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[SpursFlu]

If it makes people feel better I'm pretty sure Vancouver fc took a bus to go play Pacific 

I think Shaan Hundal even took a pick axe to it Reggie Dunlop style just to intimate Pacific and make it look tougher

Edited April 27, 2023 by SpursFlu

[masster]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Doesn't need to be an exact copy of what they do in the WHL but with a lower budget and more relaxed stadium requirements, you could do something like:

BC: Victoria, Whitecaps affiliate, TSS Rovers, Fraser Valley, Okanagan

Prairies: Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg

play same conference teams x4 and other conference teams x2 = 26 games overall followed by western playoffs and a soccer version of the Memorial Cup with OHL and QMJHL equivalents or combined equivalent in the east. Definitely not what you ideally want but better than watching a higher budget league circle the drain to oblivion, which I have a sinking feeling is what we are doing right now.

This is all well and good until you consider the one main factor that he is missing...the WHL schedule.

Those kids regularly play games on back to back days, as well as 3 games in 4 nights. That simply isn't possible in a soccer context. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, masster said:

...Those kids regularly play games on back to back days, as well as 3 games in 4 nights. That simply isn't possible in a soccer context. 

You should maybe check out how PDL schedules games sometimes if you assume games on back to back days could never happen. Not advocating that should ever happen in a soccer context but doing three games in a week on a road trip with the hosting teams being expected to provide visiting clubs with a place to stay and train at limited expense between the long bus trips is how to emulate rather than replicate the WHL. Easier to do if you are using somewhere like the Scottish club rather than Clarke Field as the venue in Edmonton.