CPL General

[nolando]

Could this team become the Kitchener Waterloo franchise that was batted about a while back?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

9 hours ago, nolando said:

Could this team become the Kitchener Waterloo franchise that was batted about a while back?

Given CanPL's launch was dominated by the Hamilton Ticats and they still seem to have a lot of influence I suspect they will try to find a way to keep a Toronto rival around so they can try to build their soccer version of the Labour Day Classic and will not be so keen on having cities like K/W, London and especially St Catherines making an appearance.

[-Hammer-]

10 hours ago, nolando said:

Could this team become the Kitchener Waterloo franchise that was batted about a while back?

The issue is the same song everywhere there is talk on CanPL expansion. Show me the owner, and show me the facility they play out of, and keeping in mind that a university multi-use field is usually not ideal.

[Bison44]

^^^ This.  The whole York thing just cements the idea that you have to have a proper stadium.  The takeaway isnt that we cant have expansion teams or we are tapped out at 8 teams etc, but that the teams have to be in spots that work, stadiums that are viable NOW, not planned for years down the road.  Ie Edmonton doesnt work now, but Calgary does, maybe York goes down the road somewhere in GTA, or maybe they go to Quebec....somewhere that has a workable stadium.  

[SpursFlu]

Watching this stadium go up in Langley I think its a game changer for potential ownership groups. It unlocks so many markets 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Watching this stadium go up in Langley I think its a game changer for potential ownership groups. It unlocks so many markets 

Do you think they'll wrap it with canvas or tarps with branding? Or disguise the metallic structure somewhat? It's what most irritates me. I find the wooden stands nice at Starlight, though they're imperfect they look good and give character to the site. 

I also find it smart the way they've used the colour scheme.

I don't see Langley as a character venue, but if the fans make it so, or the amenities, or the results, then it could work.

[SpursFlu]

I think they'll wrap the exterior with some branded type netting or banners because there are just too many ways to watch the game for free. I know what you're saying but once your inside watching the game you don't care what it looks like from the outside. The Caps at Empire was the same but people loved watching a game there

I'm just referring to the fact that you can take a blank canvas a bit bigger than a football field and within 6 months presto you have a nice little stadium

Edited April 25, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Tigers]

13 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Given CanPL's launch was dominated by the Hamilton Ticats and they still seem to have a lot of influence I suspect they will try to find a way to keep a Toronto rival around so they can try to build their soccer version of the Labour Day Classic and will not be so keen on having cities like K/W, London and especially St Catherines making an appearance.

Keeping a local rival for Labour Day type rivalry seems like an exact reason they *would* like a London/KW/StC team. 

 

[Kingston]

20 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Watching this stadium go up in Langley I think its a game changer for potential ownership groups. It unlocks so many markets 

I'm happy to see another stadium construction option, but is the stadium itself actually the problem or a place to put it?  Halifax had already demonstrated that you could put up a reasonable modular stadium for low digit millions.

[Cicero]

8 hours ago, Tigers said:

Keeping a local rival for Labour Day type rivalry seems like an exact reason they *would* like a London/KW/StC team. 

 

Ever since season 1 when we had a number of contentious games with Cavalry, they have been the team that Forge fans see as their biggest rival. Maybe if York was more successful there'd be more feeling, but just hasn't happened yet. Theoretically, I think St. Catherines could be an interesting derby. There is weirdly little north-south connection with K-W,  so while it could develop, that would not be an immediate rivalry. But in answer to your comment, at the present time, I doubt that would play into the league office's thinking. 

[Cicero]

To add to my previous comment, I'm sure the league would love to have more TFC-Forge games. That weird 2020 Canadian Championship game, though meaningless, had a great crowd and atmosphere.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

39 minutes ago, Cicero said:

To add to my previous comment, I'm sure the league would love to have more TFC-Forge games. That weird 2020 Canadian Championship game, though meaningless, had a great crowd and atmosphere.

That's what would be needed for playing home games in Tim Horton's Field to actually make sense. Hamilton as a city has always wanted to be an NHL city playing Toronto rather than an OHL one playing London, K/W and St Catherines. From what I remember hearing in old interviews when Bob Young was first exploring starting a pro soccer team in Hamilton (and that goes back around 15 years or so) his first port of call was actually MLS but that was always going to be a non-starter for much the same reasons that apply in an NHL context.

Then when talk of a big budget domestic pro league surfaced again after the Easton report had concluded conditions were not ripe for it, it revolved around a CFL-oriented league tied into a solo 2026 World Cup bid working with Traffic Sports and the NASL rather than MLS-SUM. Bob Young needed a pro soccer legacy to justify soccer-linked funding for the PanAM games to build a new stadium for the Ticats. That meant a relatively big budget league playing in stadia that could be used as World Cup venues rather than doing something in tune with the recommendations of the Easton report which would have been a lot more OHL-like.

The approach adopted by the league is very much shaped by where Hamilton as a city thinks it fits in the pro sports landscape and an ongoing obsession with CSA officeholders going back at least as far as the 1980s that they need a soccer version of the CFL. Think its's safe to assume that York United won't be moving to a regional Ontario city like K/W until they have exhausted all possible avenues of keeping it in the immediate Toronto area because admitting they can't make it fly in Canada's largest media market means giving up on a lot of the dreams/delusions that fueled the launch of the league.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I think they'll wrap the exterior with some branded type netting or banners because there are just too many ways to watch the game for free. I know what you're saying but once your inside watching the game you don't care what it looks like from the outside. The Caps at Empire was the same but people loved watching a game there

I'm just referring to the fact that you can take a blank canvas a bit bigger than a football field and within 6 months presto you have a nice little stadium

I agree. Even at revived Empire you had those metallic stands, and there was lots of foot stamping and rattling, which seems a bit high-school to me.

But the advantage was being close to the pitch, good sightlines everywhere, a wrap-around bowl. As you say, once you are in, you are watching a game and if the play is sharp and the fans are lively, you can't ask for more at the CPL level.

[Unnamed Trialist]

41 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Then when talk of a big budget domestic pro league surfaced again after the Easton report had concluded conditions were not ripe for it, it revolved around a CFL-oriented league tied into a solo 2026 World Cup bid working with Traffic Sports and the NASL rather than MLS-SUM. Bob Young needed a pro soccer legacy to justify soccer-linked funding for the PanAM games to build a new stadium for the Ticats. That meant a relatively big budget league playing in stadia that could be used as World Cup venues rather than doing something in tune with the recommendations of the Easton report which would have been a lot more OHL-like.

Thanks for confirming you've been wrong all along.

[Aird25]

44 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The approach adopted by the league is very much shaped by

I think the approach taken by the league is shaped by the geography of the country. No matter how many times you say it, a bus league will only cover a small portion of the country 

[Tigers]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

, and there was lots of foot stamping and rattling, which seems a bit high-school to me.

Being able to make noise with you feet is the biggest positive of aluminum stand for me love being able to do that when I end up in those spots of BMO.

[Kingston]

49 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That meant a relatively big budget league playing in stadia that could be used as World Cup venues rather than doing something in tune with the recommendations of the Easton report which would have been a lot more OHL-like.

The approach adopted by the league is very much shaped by where Hamilton as a city thinks it fits in the pro sports landscape and an ongoing obsession with CSA officeholders going back at least as far as the 1980s that they need a soccer version of the CFL. Think its's safe to assume that York United won't be moving to a regional Ontario city like K/W until they have exhausted all possible avenues of keeping it in the immediate Toronto area because admitting they can't make it fly in Canada's largest media market means giving up on a lot of the dreams/delusions that fueled the launch of the league.

This is your perspective, to which you are certainly entitled.  And you are not wrong that the Easton report recommended an OHL-like regional league system.  But I think holding to that viewpoint is what brings you into conflict with many of the people on this board.

The Easton report was prepared in 2012 came out at the beginning of 2013.  TFC was five and the Whitecaps and Impact had just joined MLS.  The national team was ranked something terrible and hadn't even made the hex in the previous WCQ. Alphonso Davies was 12 years old and unknown outside Edmonton.

The CPL started playing in 2019.  A lot had changed in those six years and the powers that be decided to try for a more ambitious, fully professional, nation-wide league.  There are definitely teething pains and it still remains to be seen whether the league will ultimately be successful.  If you believe the whole thing started because of Bob Young's stadium plans, then fine; he was certainly one of the people involved.  Regardless, this is where we are currently at.  On top of an L1 structure that is more and more resembling what the Easton Report called for in the first place.

So, yes, York was a mistake.  And, yes, the league is going to do what it can on optics - just like any other league or company would do.  And there are always different ways to approach a given objective.  But the CPL also represents a great opportunity for Canadian soccer and continues to experience a lot of successes as well.  Let's see what things look like in five years rather than seeing any setback as a sign that the league is doomed.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 minutes ago, Kingston said:

...On top of an L1 structure that is more and more resembling what the Easton Report called for in the first place...

It really isn't. It's a largely amateur setup with little in the way of spectator interest. Joe Belan's attempt at setting up a D2 out of the Saskatchewan Summer Soccer Series was closer to what the Easton report had in mind.

[Kingston]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It really isn't. It's a largely amateur setup with little in the way of spectator interest. Joe Belan's attempt at setting up a D2 out of the Saskatchewan Summer Soccer Series was closer to what the Easton report had in mind.

The level is below what Easton envisioned.  The regional bus league model, hopefully soon to cover Alberta and the Maritimes as well as BC, Ontario, and Quebec, is on target.

[Aird25]

34 minutes ago, Kingston said:

This is your perspective, to which you are certainly entitled.  And you are not wrong that the Easton report recommended an OHL-like regional league system.  But I think holding to that viewpoint is what brings you into conflict with many of the people on this board.

The Easton report was prepared in 2012 came out at the beginning of 2013.  TFC was five and the Whitecaps and Impact had just joined MLS.  The national team was ranked something terrible and hadn't even made the hex in the previous WCQ. Alphonso Davies was 12 years old and unknown outside Edmonton.

The CPL started playing in 2019.  A lot had changed in those six years and the powers that be decided to try for a more ambitious, fully professional, nation-wide league.  There are definitely teething pains and it still remains to be seen whether the league will ultimately be successful.  If you believe the whole thing started because of Bob Young's stadium plans, then fine; he was certainly one of the people involved.  Regardless, this is where we are currently at.  On top of an L1 structure that is more and more resembling what the Easton Report called for in the first place.

So, yes, York was a mistake.  And, yes, the league is going to do what it can on optics - just like any other league or company would do.  And there are always different ways to approach a given objective.  But the CPL also represents a great opportunity for Canadian soccer and continues to experience a lot of successes as well.  Let's see what things look like in five years rather than seeing any setback as a sign that the league is doomed.

Wasn't the Easton Report mostly commissioned to justify de-sanctioning of CSL? How much merit does it still actually hold?

[Kingston]

39 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Wasn't the Easton Report mostly commissioned to justify de-sanctioning of CSL? How much merit does it still actually hold?

I think the CSL provided its own desantioning justification by being involved in betting fraud.

I don't think the Easton report has so much merit today just because a lot has changed in the Canadian soccer landscape.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

The level is below what Easton envisioned.  The regional bus league model, hopefully soon to cover Alberta and the Maritimes as well as BC, Ontario, and Quebec, is on target.

League One is a red herring in all of this.

Jim Easton and others involved were charged with assessing whether a relatively high budget coast-to-coast men's pro league could be launched using the 2015 Women's World Cup hosting as the catalyst. This involved contacting possible owners and sponsors etc. They concluded conditions were not ripe but the CSA and a certain high profile investor from the Hamilton area subsequently ignored their conclusions and decided to plough right on ahead anyway.

That has now led to the CSB deal furore after Victor Montagliani signed over control of 20 years worth of CMNT and CWNT broadcast and sponsorship revenues, but FC Edmonton folding despite that with York and the Valour looking like they are heading down the same path with early reports of VFC ticket sales revolving around words like "abysmal".

But let's be ambitious rather than sticking to something sustainable and trying to emulate what minor league baseball and junior hockey have been able to do for decades. Certain influential people wanted to tilt at windmills where MLS was concerned.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That has now led to the CSB deal furore after Victor Montagliani signed over control of 20 years worth of CMNT and CWNT broadcast and sponsorship revenues, but FC Edmonton folding despite that with York and the Valour looking like they are heading down the same path with early reports of VFC ticket sales revolving around words like "abysmal".

The CPL took in a struggling Edmonton FC (just off a year of hiatus) and cold started six teams.  They've now added a seventh and an eighth.

Edmonton folded.  York is clearly on the ropes.  I'm not connected to any sources but it sounds like Valour is doing poorly.

Halifax is an unqualified success.  Ottawa looks to have reached sustainability.  Forge, Cavalry, and Pacific aren't there yet but appear to be heading in the right direction.  We have no data on Vancouver.

There are additional expansion possibilities in play.

You are correct that the folding of Edmonton and the sale of York tells us something about the value of the CSB money; specifically that it isn't some money fountain that can float the league by itself.

Overall, however, the league is still in a decent position.  Did anyone expect every one of the teams to survive?  That always seemed unlikely to me.  It would be bad if York and Valour folded but not impossibly so if they moved instead or were replaced with expansion teams elsewhere.  Depending on which way Vancouver breaks, we have six of the eight teams needed for a league in or near long term viability.  That's not a bad start.

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

But let's be ambitious rather than sticking to something sustainable and trying to emulate what minor league baseball and junior hockey have been able to do for decades. Certain influential people wanted to tilt at windmills where MLS was concerned.

The problem here is the assumption that an Easton-style D2 league will be sustainable.

The L1 leagues are sustainable because they operate in a very low budget environment.  As you pointed out, however, most teams draw very few fans.  So most soccer fans aren't willing to come out for L1 soccer.

A D1 league has much higher costs but tries to reach a level where enough fans and sponsors will come out to support it.  That's the gamble but it can pay off.

A D2 league would look a lot like the L1 leagues in terms of where the teams are situated and how they travel but would have significantly higher costs.  I'm just not convinced that Guelph United FC is suddenly going to start drawing 1000 fans per game because we call the league D2 instead of 100 fans per game in L1O.

In fact, I think the teams are more likely to eventually make it financially by going all the way up to D1 than by trying a worst-of-both-worlds D2 arrangement.

[SpursFlu]

I have observed in life that if someone compiles a bunch of information puts it neatly together and draws a conclusion.. then presents it with an aura of finality and calls it a report

It tends to be absolute bullshit

Just a thought.. maybe someday I'll put that in a report but only if someone is willing to pay me to do it

Edited April 26, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kent]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Jim Easton and others involved were charged with assessing whether a relatively high budget coast-to-coast men's pro league could be launched using the 2015 Women's World Cup hosting as the catalyst. This involved contacting possible owners and sponsors etc.

Did the Easton report contact Atletico Madrid, Spruce Meadows and Entertainment, Bob Young, Sports & Entertainment Atlantic, SixFive Sports & Entertainment, Winnipeg Football Club, Media Pro, CIBC, Volkswagen, West Jet, Allstate, Macron, Maple Lodge Farms, GoGo Squeez, Carlsberg, and Degree? If they did contact those entities and they said it was a bad idea, then I guess those entities changed their minds. If they didn't contact those entities, then perhaps they were asking the wrong potential owners and sponsors.

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That has now led to the CSB deal furore after Victor Montagliani signed over control of 20 years worth of CMNT and CWNT broadcast and sponsorship revenues, but FC Edmonton folding despite that with York and the Valour looking like they are heading down the same path with early reports of VFC ticket sales revolving around words like "abysmal".

If your belief is that the CPL is destined to fail quickly (you constantly bring up that before the league started there were people thinking there would be team salaries around 1.5 to 3 million, and playing in front of 5 to 10 thousand fans, so I guess I can bring up that you were quite skeptical of it lasting beyond 1 season), I don't know why you are so concerned with the 20 year aspect of that deal. The deal would die with the league if the league folds up shop.