CPL General

[Watchmen]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Just like in Europe, MX and MFF would cave to fan who don't want it nor care about MLS.

Sure, though I have no idea what Liga MX fans and the MFF want. 

37 minutes ago, Ansem said:

All Liga Mx wants is a pie of the US market - which is what the expanded League cup does. Why not get your cake and eat it too (independence and cash) to trade it for lost of control?

Oh, I agree "control" is a big part of what they all disagree on, though I wouldn't underestimate the influence and power of the big Liga MX clubs. 

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, Macksam said:

That does not answer why UEFA has to do it first. Yes, their FAs and most of their clubs don't want it but this has nothing to do with them. The opposite is true over here, all LIGA MX and MLS clubs and their respective leagues along with their government bodies seem to be very interested in the idea. 

When it comes to why for Liga MX? Well, the merged league has the potential to become the top league in the world, something Liga MX by itself has no chance of achieving on its own. 

A Super League would set the precedent leading the path to more super leagues around the world.

Infantino flip flopping in Europe (reports said that he was initially for it) shows that we shouldn't put that much weight into what he says but what he does...and competence

I don't buy the Mexicans wants to merge, they are happy to flirt with the idea to get more access to the US market. They don't need MLS for global access due to their monopoly on the CONCACAF participation at FIFA club world cup. They can actually compete there earning their place as a very good league worldwide...they never needed MLS to prove that point. Why would they change now?  They'd get lost in a dilution of talent leading to the league not necessarily reaching their goal or the US taking all the credit and burying the Mexican part of the league under their flags.

Merger: you're implying that both sides would be equals... nah, everything is ran from New York if that happens and they'd call all the shots. 

Unlike us, Mexicans aren't that eager to give up that much control and hope for the best

Sorry for the cynism, Americans are incapable of sharing. They need to own and control... NHL, 2026 World Cup, heck look how bad he CFL venture in the US went. Nah...Mexicans aren't as naive as we are

Edited September 23, 2021 by Ansem

[Macksam]

29 minutes ago, Ansem said:

A Super League would set the precedent leading the path to more super leagues around the world.

Infantino flip flopping in Europe (reports said that he was initially for it) shows that we shouldn't put that much weight into what he says but what he does...and competence

I don't buy the Mexicans wants to merge, they are happy to flirt with the idea to get more access to the US market. They don't need MLS for global access due to their monopoly on the CONCACAF participation at FIFA club world cup. They can actually compete there earning their place as a very good league worldwide...they never needed MLS to prove that point. Why would they change now?  They'd get lost in a dilution of talent leading to the league not necessarily reaching their goal or the US taking all the credit and burying the Mexican part of the league under their flags.

Merger: you're implying that both sides would be equals... nah, everything is ran from New York if that happens and they'd call all the shots. 

Unlike us, Mexicans aren't that eager to give up that much control and hope for the best

Sorry for the cynism, Americans are incapable of sharing. They need to own and control... NHL, 2026 World Cup, heck look how bad he CFL venture in the US went. Nah...Mexicans aren't as naive as we are

It's not about proving a point. It's about becoming the best league in the world and that would only happen with a MLS merger. Sure, initially there might be a dilution in talent but that's a minor blip in the potential long-term growth of a North American league. 

Nobody said Mexicans are naïve but you aren't dealing with all Mexicans, you're dealing with a bunch of rich Mexican owners that would have no issue with losing some "control" and having things run out of New York.  

[Ansem]

38 minutes ago, Macksam said:

It's not about proving a point. It's about becoming the best league in the world and that would only happen with a MLS merger. Sure, initially there might be a dilution in talent but that's a minor blip in the potential long-term growth of a North American league. 

Nobody said Mexicans are naïve but you aren't dealing with all Mexicans, you're dealing with a bunch of rich Mexican owners that would have no issue with losing some "control" and having things run out of New York.  

Well even with a merger, they won't be the best.

Yes they have greedy owners who might want to be part of the league but same thing almost happened In Europe and all the English clubs cave to critics. We're talking about a league where the biggest clubs would meet.

Mexicans truly don't rate MLS nor care for the most part, this would be viewed negatively and even greedy owners see the light when their bottom line is in danger

[Macksam]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Well even with a merger, they won't be the best.

Yes they have greedy owners who might want to be part of the league but same thing almost happened In Europe and all the English clubs cave to critics. We're talking about a league where the biggest clubs would meet.

Mexicans truly don't rate MLS nor care for the most part, this would be viewed negatively and even greedy owners see the light when their bottom line is in danger

Not right away but eventually they would.

Was a poll done to gauge Mexican fans and what their interest levels would be? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Ansem]

9 hours ago, Macksam said:

Not right away but eventually they would.

Was a poll done to gauge Mexican fans and what their interest levels would be? 

I'm not sure - such a poll would be very interesting. Most Liga MX and National team fans I interact with on other medias have little interest in a merger. From their point of view, going back to Copa Libertadores would be a much bigger deal than playing the League Cup or merging with MLS.

They roll their eyes the same way that some do when scenarios of the 3 MLS clubs joining CPL is brought up. I'll double down on this : how would American fans feel if CPL was driving the merger talks with MLS? They'd roll their yes and laugh. From most Mexicans perspective, they just don't rate MLS nor see it as their equal or close to it.

[ted]

14 hours ago, Macksam said:

It's not about proving a point. It's about becoming the best league in the world and that would only happen with a MLS merger.

Yeah not really sure that Mexican clubs would see it that way. That would be declaring MLS was better then they are.

[nfitz]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:45 AM, narduch said:

We are talking about the new format where Concacaf explicitly states spring 2024.

It says it's being played in spring 2024. It doesn't explicitly say it both starts and finishes in spring 2024.

Presumably they could play Round 1, as usual, in February, and still play the main part of the tournament in the spring.

Either way, I'd be surprised if there isn't play during spring 2024. I'd also be surprised if there isn't play in at least one of the preceding winter, or postceding (?) summer.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

I'm not sure - such a poll would be very interesting. Most Liga MX and National team fans I interact with on other medias have little interest in a merger. From their point of view, going back to Copa Libertadores would be a much bigger deal than playing the League Cup or merging with MLS.

They roll their eyes the same way that some do when scenarios of the 3 MLS clubs joining CPL is brought up. I'll double down on this : how would American fans feel if CPL was driving the merger talks with MLS? They'd roll their yes and laugh. From most Mexicans perspective, they just don't rate MLS nor see it as their equal or close to it.

Well, it's not quite the same. We know that at least some of the Liga MX clubs want even more access to the American market. That's why the merger talks come up sometimes. Conversely, MLS already has the 3 major markets in Canada covered. There's no reason for them to even consider a merger with the CPL.

I'll agree that the Mexican clubs would much, much rather be back in the Copa Libertadores. But CONCACAF will block that as long as they can while trying to maximize revenue for both themselves (the priority) and the Liga MX clubs (to keep them happy).

[SpursFlu]

I'm not sure if being in Copa Libertadores is bigger than a dream scenario with MLS and the US. Yes its a bigger competition but Mexican teams are only respected in South America but not really an opportunity to grow the brand. The American market is wealthy with state of the art facilities and a sympatico culture. They can really make an impact both culturally and fiscally in the US market. Tigress can play intense games against Boca and Flamengo and thats fun but nobody in Argentina or Brazil are gonna give a crap about them once they get on a plane and fly back to Mexico 

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I'm not sure if being in Copa Libertadores is bigger than a dream scenario with MLS and the US. Yes its a bigger competition but Mexican teams are only respected in South America but not really an opportunity to grow the brand. The American market is wealthy with state of the art facilities and a sympatico culture. They can really make an impact both culturally and fiscally in the US market. Tigress can play intense games against Boca and Flamengo and thats fun but nobody in Argentina or Brazil are gonna give a crap about them once they get on a plane and fly back to Mexico 

For top owners maybe - fans wants none of it.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Ansem

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

For top owners maybe - fans wants none of it.

What about the millions of fans they have in America? By some estimates there are over 60 million people of Mexican heritage living in America. By proof last time I checked LigaMX had better ratings than even the epl in the US. 

Also, as someone who follows the Copa Libertadores and South American football, its really turning in to a 1 horse race down there. Argentina club football has really dipped. Some of the traditional big clubs aren't much of a factor. Its kinda just Brazil dominating across the board

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

What about the millions of fans they have in America?

Those fans don't watch nor care about MLS either. TV ratings reflect that. Those same fans don't want their league to be diluted into MLS.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[narduch]

35 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

Shouldn't you post this in the MLS forum

A more relevant rating number would be the Leon v Seattle Leagues Cup game that was just played  

Which ironically had zero mentions on this forum. That's how meaningless Leagues Cup is. Will 3 CL spots change that by much?

Edited September 24, 2021 by narduch

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Before this thread gets derailed by the usual suspects projecting their divisive CanPL vs MLS obsessions what these tweets show is that there was a large audience on Spanish language TV in the United States for a meaningless exhibition game between MLS and LigaMX so Ansem's take doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The English language number for that game is comically low (under 20k if it was in Canada in per capita terms), while the Univision number is respectable. Mexican-American fans are the key target audience for a lot of MLS/SUM's most lucrative activities. There's no similar recent immigrant demographic in a Canadian context that can do something similar for CSB unfortunately.

The unpalatable reality is that CanPL got elbowed out of the picture on this CONCACAF revamp when they would no doubt have felt 100% entitled to a seat at the table in a NAFU context. They were part and parcel of the North American regional format in the earlier proposal that was reported so it looks like Victor Montagliani wasn't able to deliver for them this time around. It's CONCACAF so money talks and MLS and LigaMX got what they wanted, i.e. something that looks suspiciously like an embryonic first step to the shared league format that has been rumoured in recent times.

The provision of automatic first round entry at the beginning of the knockout phase for two clubs looks good initially but may well have been made in the cynical expectation that the CanPL clubs involved won't actually opt to participate when the time comes. It is pretty much the worst possible time of year for all of them from the point of view of not having many/most players under contract and for most of them on being able to realistically play a home game outdoors in their own stadium. This is a step backwards from what Victor Montagliani had been able to arrange on CONCACAF League entry.   

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Before this thread gets derailed by the usual suspects projecting their divisive CanPL vs MLS obsessions what these tweets show is that there was a large audience on Spanish language TV in the United States for a meaningless exhibition game between MLS and LigaMX so Ansem's take doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The English language number for that game is comically low (under 20k if it was in Canada in per capita terms), while the Univision number is respectable. Mexican-American fans are the key target audience for a lot of MLS/SUM's most lucrative activities. There's no similar recent immigrant demographic in a Canadian context that can do something similar for CSB unfortunately.

The unpalatable reality is that CanPL got elbowed out of the picture on this CONCACAF revamp when they would no doubt have felt 100% entitled to a seat at the table in a NAFU context. They were part and parcel of the North American regional format in the earlier proposal that was reported so it looks like Victor Montagliani wasn't able to deliver for them this time around. It's CONCACAF so money talks and MLS and LigaMX got what they wanted, i.e. something that looks suspiciously like an embryonic first step to the shared league format that has been rumoured in recent times.

The provision of automatic first round entry at the beginning of the knockout phase for two clubs looks good initially but may well have been made in the cynical expectation that the CanPL clubs involved won't actually opt to participate when the time comes. It is pretty much the worst possible time of year for all of them from the point of view of not having many/most players under contract and for most of them on being able to realistically play a home game outdoors in their own stadium. This is a step backwards from what Victor Montagliani had been able to arrange on CONCACAF League entry.   

A little melodramatic, but I agree with a few of your points.

1.  I agree that Ansem's take makes no sense in light of the TV numbers you were able to produce.  In reality, MLS (or SUM) is trying to capture the Latino market in the US and the Leagues Cup is the best way of doing so in the absence of a merger, which IMHO, will never happen.  The Leagues Cup, of which I was never a fan, is the best of both worlds for Liga Mex and MLS for the money which Montagliani was trying to secure for Concacaf.  An FU to Concacaf by the two biggest leagues in my opinion.  I am pleased the Canadian clubs are part of this and have more opportunities for Champions League entry.

2.  I don't understand your take on how the CPL got elbowed out of the Champions League bit from the prior proposal.  They had two spots allocated to them then, and two spots now. No difference.  They were never part of Leagues Cup, and frankly, I couldn't care less that they are not part of it now.  I agree with you on the much less than optimal timing for CPL clubs, but in the old format, would it have been any different?

Edited September 24, 2021 by Ivan
spelling

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

There was an earlier proposal in which CanPL was going to be in the North American regional stage:

A Leagues Cup type format involving only MLS and Liga MX has replaced this.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ivan]

Okay, see your point.  CPL clubs lose a group stage involving MLS and Liga MX clubs that could have been lucrative.  But they still get a H&H (maybe multiple) for two clubs, with a chance for a third via the Canadian Championship.  I think its okay for both CPL and Canadian MLS teams, which now have more opportunity for Champions League entry than they had previously.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

It would have been reasonably OK for CanPL if these round one H&H games were being played any time from late April to early November. It's already clear that they won't be unfortunately.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, narduch said:

Shouldn't you post this in the MLS forum

A more relevant rating number would be the Leon v Seattle Leagues Cup game that was just played  

Which ironically had zero mentions on this forum. That's how meaningless Leagues Cup is. Will 3 CL spots change that by much?

I think in part the meaningfulness of any tournament depends on how seriously the teams involved take it. The current format of the Leagues Cup was always about 3rd or 4th priority to most teams, and they'd frequently rest players for upcoming league games. With the Leagues shutting down, there's no excuses for managers not to dress their best line ups. Will fans care? No idea. But I think it's at least an interesting gamble, and I'm looking forward to it.

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

Okay, see your point.  CPL clubs lose a group stage involving MLS and Liga MX clubs that could have been lucrative.  But they still get a H&H (maybe multiple) for two clubs, with a chance for a third via the Canadian Championship.  I think its okay for both CPL and Canadian MLS teams, which now have more opportunity for Champions League entry than they had previously.  

In my opinion this is better for the CPL as they get 2 guaranteed spots in the Champions League proper.

It may have been harder to get that far in the previous format. 

Plus a 3rd CPL squad can qualify via the Voyageurs Cup. Perhaps even as a Finalist if one of the 3 Canadian MLS clubs qualify the other 2 ways they have.

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Before this thread gets derailed by the usual suspects projecting their divisive CanPL vs MLS obsessions what these tweets show is that there was a large audience on Spanish language TV in the United States for a meaningless exhibition game between MLS and LigaMX so Ansem's take doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The English language number for that game is comically low (under 20k if it was in Canada in per capita terms), while the Univision number is respectable. Mexican-American fans are the key target audience for a lot of MLS/SUM's most lucrative activities. There's no similar recent immigrant demographic in a Canadian context that can do something similar for CSB unfortunately.

You're talking about ONE GAME - I'm talking years of data and trends. MLS has improved it's TV numbers but Liga MX has better numbers than MLS in the United States - that's a fact. The League Cup allows Liga MX to increase their fanbase in the US - that's obvious.

They don't need a merger to achieve their goals in the US - League Cup hits those spots

 

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The unpalatable reality is that CanPL got elbowed out of the picture on this CONCACAF revamp when they would no doubt have felt 100% entitled to a seat at the table in a NAFU context. They were part and parcel of the North American regional format in the earlier proposal that was reported so it looks like Victor Montagliani wasn't able to deliver for them this time around. It's CONCACAF so money talks and MLS and LigaMX got what they wanted, i.e. something that looks suspiciously like an embryonic first step to the shared league format that has been rumoured in recent times.

You're such an hypocrite.

You talk about people fuelling the CPL vs MLS divide yet - no one/very little seems to have an issue with CPL being excluded from the League Cup - we got 2 DIRECT berths into that round and most of us are happy about it. Yet - like one of my exes I have in mind, you're stubbornly hammering and won't let go of this conspiracy that somehow, CPL wanted in and got rejected.

Based on what besides your imagination?

 

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The provision of automatic first round entry at the beginning of the knockout phase for two clubs looks good initially but may well have been made in the cynical expectation that the CanPL clubs involved won't actually opt to participate when the time comes. It is pretty much the worst possible time of year for all of them from the point of view of not having many/most players under contract and for most of them on being able to realistically play a home game outdoors in their own stadium. This is a step backwards from what Victor Montagliani had been able to arrange on CONCACAF League entry. 

Forge would have kept playing as far as the CONCACAF league would have last. They aren't "opting" out of good business and exposure falling onto their lap. You're disingenuous AF my friend

Edited September 24, 2021 by Ansem

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You're talking about ONE GAME - I'm talking YEARS of data and trends.

 

You're such an hypocrite.

You talk about people fuelling the CPL vs MLS divide yet - no one/very little seems to have an issue with CPL being excluded from the League Cup - we got 2 DIRECT berths into that round and most of us are happy about it. Yet - like one of my exes I have in mind, you're stubbornly hammering and won't let go of this conspiracy that somehow, CPL wanted in and got rejected.

Based on what besides your imagination?

 

Forge would have kept playing as far as the CONCACAF league would have last. They aren't "opting" out of good business and exposure falling onto their lap. You're disingenuous AF my friend

Trying to turn a positive for the CPL to a negative. Par for the course for OTP.

Even bringing up the ratings for the MLS all star game is kind of laughable. That is a one off super hyped game. MLS and Liga MX should keep that format, but that is besides the point.

In my opinion the expanded Leagues Cup will end up being a dud long term, even with 3 Champions League games up for grabs